Économique

by Xenophon, Pierre Chantraine (Translator)

Composée autour de 370 avant J.-C., l'Économique est une source importante pour l'histoire sociale et intellectuelle d'Athènes à l'époque classique et a introduit un terme d'avenir dans la pensée occidentale. Dans ce traité socratique, Xénophon imagine un dialogue entre Socrate et l'un de ses disciples, Critobule. Ce dernier souhaite savoir comment gérer le domaine (oikos) qu'il a hérité de son père, car il lui faut faire face à des dépenses considérables au service de la cité. Socrate, qui ne possède qu'un bien fort modeste, lui rapporte alors la conversation qu'il a eue avec un certain Ischomaque, un grand propriétaire terrien qui fait travailler sur ses terres de nombreux esclaves. Ischomaque, en effet, lui a enseigné les raisons de ses succès de gestionnaire : d'abord l'éducation qu'il a donnée à son épouse, puis la manière de traiter les esclaves pour en obtenir le meilleur rendement, enfin les diverses opérations que doit accomplir un bon agriculteur. L'essentiel, c'est de faire preuve des qualités d'organisateur qui sont aussi celles du bon chef de guerre ou encore du roi des Perses.L'oikonomikè, « l'art de bien gérer un domaine », est ainsi l'un des aspects de l'art de commander.

Genres: Philosophy, Economics, Classics, History, Nonfiction, Literature, Politics

208 pages, Paperback

First published January 1, 363

About the author

Xenophon (Ancient Greek Ξενοφῶν, Modern Greek Ξενοφώντας; ca. 431 – 355 BC), son of Gryllus, of the deme Erchia of Athens, was a soldier, mercenary and a contemporary and admirer of Socrates. He is known for his writings on the history of his own times, preserving the sayings of Socrates, and the life of ancient Greece.

Historical and biographical works:
Anabasis (or The Persian Expedition)
Cyropaedia
Hellenica
Agesilaus

Socratic works and dialogues:
Memorabilia
Oeconomicus
Symposium
Apology
Hiero

Short treatises:
On Horsemanship
The Cavalry General
Hunting with Dogs
Ways and Means
Constitution of Sparta

Reviews

[Heather Gorsett · Rating 4 out of 5]

This book was surprisingly accessible and unexpectedly practical (thanks in no small part to the Scholé Sisters book club posts), offering a remarkably human guide to household and personal management.

Part philosophy, part agricultural manual, and part lesson in leadership and stewardship, Oeconomicus reminds us that knowledge alone isn’t enough. True success comes from careful attention, consistent action, and the patient cultivation of both people and resources.

Now it’s time to roll up my sleeves and get to work—tending to my household and children with care.

[David Sarkies · Rating 4 out of 5]

Socrates on Running a Farm
29 August 2022 – Singapore

Actually, I’m sitting in Changi Airport on the otherside of the immigration gates, waiting five hours for my connecting flight to take me home again, so technically I’m not actually in Singapore, but rather in that no-man’s land that happen to be international airport terminals. Anyway, I thought that this was going to be a rather quick read so that I could write the review on the plane, but it turned out that it wasn’t and despite it being a 13 hour flight, I finished it just before I arrived in Singapore (or I should say 2 hours before arriving in Singapore).

So, this is a discussion about running an estate, and while Hesiod wrote a similar treatise called ‘Works and Days’, it really isn’t the same as this particular one. First of all, Hesiod is a poem (though I’m not sure I would call it an epic poem, it reads more like the Biblical book of Proverbs) whereas this is a philosophical discussion between Socrates and a friend, and we assume that Xenophon is listening in. However, the dates sort of make it a little difficult for Xenophon to actually be present.

What is interesting is that the commentator at the beginning of the text didn’t want to use the exact name, the Oeconomicus, in case us, the reader, thinks that it is some sort of ancient text on economics. I sort of don’t necessarily agree with this because while Adam Smith is considered the father of Modern Economics, it doesn’t mean that the Ancients didn’t dabble in the art either. Actually, what is suggested is that it seems that Xenophon is probably the first to write something along the lines of this. In fact, his work seemed to trigger a whole heap more following in his tracks.

The thing is that the discussion here is really about how to effectively manage an estate. The first discussion is determining what are assets and what are liabilities, and the conclusion is that an asset is something to provides good things while liabilities provide bad things. However, there is a catch – if you own something that you cannot use, then it is more likely a liability than it is an asset. This differs from our modern understanding of the terms in that an asset is something that grows our wealth, while a liability is something that drains our wealth. However, a share that goes down in value, while in Socrates’ definition is a liability, in our modern understanding, it is an asset. The example that is used is a set of pipes owned by somebody who can’t play it – that is a liability.

Another thing that struck me is that Xenophon is recording a conversation of Socrates and halfway through the book Socrates starts telling us of a conversation that he had with another person, a farmer, earlier on, who then tells Socrates of a conversation he had with his wife. There is an interesting saying with regards to wives – courtesans provide pleasure, concubines provide physical release, and wives provide legitimate heirs. That is a little simplistic though, because the text is clear that the role of the wife is also the household manager – basically the accountant. While the husband works outside supervising the slaves (Athenian’s didn’t work with their hands, they got somebody else to do that), while the wife handled the wealth, as well as keeping the house in a tidy state, meaning that everything was placed in a good, and easily accessible, position.

As is typical of Xenophon, he uses a lot of military metaphors in exploring the idea of managing an estate (where the suggestion is that it is a farm, but it could be any estate). For instance, the concept of why a knowledgeable farmer will still fail, Xenophon points out a number of situations where it is logical for soldiers to behave in a certain way (such as setting up watchers while camping) but failing to do so. In a sense, what he is getting at is that people are basically lazy. While they know that they are supposed to do something a particular way, that way is simply too hard, so they end up cutting corners, and by cutting corners, they end up failing.

The last section of the book suddenly becomes a gardening manual, namely because they begin discussing the best way to plant crops, and the best way to plant trees. Yeah, that is certainly something you wouldn’t see in a modern economics textbook, but we need to remember that this is an agrarian, small landowner, society, so it would actually make quite a lot of sense to include a discussion on farming methods, and the best way to receive a decent crop. Oh, and before I forget, there is also a discussion on ‘flipping’, which is where a dilapidated farm is purchased (and there were quite a lot around Athens due to the Peloponesian War), done up, and then sold at a premium. Yeah, it seems the idea of renovating a run down property has existed for as long as people have realised that they could make a buck out of getting some slaves to do the work for you.

[Heather Tully · Rating 4 out of 5]

Read with Schole Sisters which helped to make applications to homemaking.

[ksenophon · Rating 2 out of 5]

Kitap iki bölümden oluşuyor. İlk kısım akıcı ve gündelik hayata daha uygunken ikinci bölüm sıkıcı ve teknik detaylara boğulmuş bir çiftçilik anlatımı mevcut. Beklentimi karşıladığı söylenemez.

[Lukerik · Rating 4 out of 5]

This is a Project Gutenberg text adapted for the Kindle. There are three or four typos. The translation is slightly old fashioned but lively. The notes are really not what we expect today. But it's free so who's complaining?

Interesting to see Socrates re-created by someone other than Plato. Socrates's opening line of questioning is very Platonic which makes me suspect Socrates was really like that. Really though, the dialogue form is just a hook for Xenophon to hang a self help manual on.

Thre's a wealth of histical and cultural information. Feminists will have a field daay with the advice on how to manage a fourteen yer old wife.

Xenophon's personality comes through clearly and I can imagine him, the field commander, old now and retired to his estate, learning to farm and trying to justify an existence that he obviously feels falls short of his former glory.

[Duncan Idaho · Rating 4 out of 5]

Zanimljivo napisano, mada sam očekivao malo više konkretnih primera. Plus je što ima i grčki tekst.

[Yann · Rating 4 out of 5]

Le texte en lui-même est d'un grand intérêt car il reprend un thème qui est abordé dans toute l'oeuvre de Xénophon, contemporain de Platon, qui fut aussi disciple de Socrate et est surtout connu pour son Anabase : celui du commandement. L'économie, au sens du livre, est surtout relative à la question de l'économie domestique, et du soin que l'on doit apporter à ses affaires si l'on souhaite faire venir la prospérité chez soi. Pour répondre à cette question, Socrate raconte à Critobule quels furent les enseignements qu'il reçut de Ischomaque, lequel aborde l'ensemble des points méritant de l'attention : il s'agit, pour le décrire de façon moderne, de gestion et de management, saupoudré de constantes évocations de la divinité. L'éducation de la femme, maîtresse des choses de l'intérieur et souvent liée à l'homme suite à un mariage arrangée est un des fondements les plus important. L'ordre et l'organisation rationnel, le calcul et la prévoyance entrent également en ligne de compte. Puis c'est un long et bel éloge de l'agriculture que fait Xénophon, qui nous présente cette activité comme étant non seulement lucrative, bonne pour la santée, et propre à faire des citoyens vertueux et courageux. Enfin, la question du commandement occupe une place de choix : c'est l'oeuil du maître qui fait croitre la récolte, c'est à dire qu'il faut non seulement surveiller, mais encore enseigner correctement à chacun ce qu'il doit pratiquer, et non agir de manière aveugle et tyrannique, sous peine de rencontrer bien des tourments et des inquiétudes.

Je suis assez mitigé sur ces nouvelles éditions en poche des Belles Lettres : d'un coté, on peut avoir enfin une version bilingue sous un format maniable à un pris abordable, mais l'impression du texte grecque est, pour parler sans ambages, parfaitement atroce : l'accentuation, les esprits, tous les signes diacritiques sont presque illisible, voir même certaines lettres. C'est dommage que l'éditeur ne porte pas un plus grand soin à la qualité de l'impression. J'ai dans les mains des bilingues en poche édités par Gallimard Flammarion, le résultat est incomparablement plus propre. Dans un autre ouvrage de la même édition, où se trouvait le Timon de Lucien, c'était une ligne entière qui manquait.

J'avais lu une traduction il y a quelque années. Je ne suis pas peu fier d'avoir réussi d'en retraduire une bonne partie directement à partir du grec, grâce au soutien de mon enseignante qui a la patience de soulever mes erreurs, et de combler mon ignorance.

[Drew Norwood · Rating 4 out of 5]

“It is the business of a good householder to regulate his house well.”

Following in the tradition of Aristotle, Xenophon divided moral philosophy into three parts: ethics (for the individual), politics (for the community), and oeconomics (for the household). Here we have his view of a well-managed house.

[Josefine · Rating 3 out of 5]

Xenophon can suck my proverbial dick.

[Valentina Markasović · Rating 4 out of 5]

Lektori, where you at

[Illiterate · Rating 3 out of 5]

The first half is a nice dialogue on self-management. The second half is on managing others - wives and foremen.

[Ivor Armistead · Rating 4 out of 5]

Wisdom and insight for the ages. Lessons on management and leadership worthy of inclusion in any MBA curriculum.

[James Miller · Rating 3 out of 5]

There seem two fairly disjointed parts to the Oiconomicus, and both focus on ideas of self and other control. Xenophon uses ideas of Socratic questioning (elenchus) to bring out skills and awareness. Where Plato's elenchus points toward learning as memory, Xenophon's is more prosaic and studies knowledge gained through observation in potential needing only questioning to be actualised. The portrayal of women and slaves is fairly demeaning, but this is of its time. How far knowledge that Ischomachus's wife did the dirty on him (Andocides on the Mysteries) should lead us to read this ironically is up for debate (see below).


Andocides, on the Mysteries, 124-7

[124]But you must let me tell you how the son to whom Callias tried to have the daughter of Epilycus awarded was born and acknowledged by his father; it is quite worth hearing, gentlemen. Callias married a daughter of Ischomachus; but he had not been living with her a year before he made her mother his mistress. Was ever man so utterly without shame? He was the priest of the Mother and the Daughter; yet he lived with mother and daughter and kept them both in his house together.
[125]The thought of the Two Goddesses may not have awoken any shame or fear in Callias; but the daughter of Ischomachus thought death better than an existence where such things went on before her very eyes. She tried to hang herself: but was stopped in the act. Then, when she recovered, she ran away from home; the mother drove out the daughter. Finally Callias grew tired of the mother as well, and drove her out in her turn. She then said she was pregnant by him; but when she gave birth to a son, Callias denied that the child was his.
[126] At that, the woman's relatives came to the altar at the Apaturia1 with the child and a victim for sacrifice, and told Callias to begin the rites. He asked whose child it was. “The child of Callias, son of Hipponicus,” they replied. “But I am he.” “Yes, and the child is yours.” Callias took hold of the altar and swore that the only son he had or had ever had was Hipponicus, and the mother was Glaucon's daughter. If that was not the truth, he prayed that he and his house might perish from the earth—as they surely will.
[127] Now some time afterwards, gentlemen, he fell in love with the abandoned old hag once more and welcomed her back into his house, while he presented the boy, a grown lad by this time, to the Ceryces, asserting that he was his own son. Calliades opposed his admission; but the Ceryces voted in favour of the law which they have, whereby a father can introduce his son, if he swears that it is his own son whom he is introducing. So Callias took hold of the altar and swore that the boy was his legitimate son by Chrysilla. Yet he had disowned that same son. Call witnesses to confirm all this, please. “Witnesses”

Andocides. Minor Attic Orators in two volumes 1, Antiphon Andocides, with an English translation by K. J. Maidment, M.A. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1968.
Taken from http://www.perseus.tufts.edu

[Mary · Rating 4 out of 5]

Weird in a couple ways--Socrates quotes someone else at length who he thinks is a better expert, and surprisingly supportive of women's (circumscribed) roles. You also have to realize that all the mansplaining is likely because the wife was, like 14 years old. Ischomachus trains his wife about where everything is and advises her to be like a queen bee--leading and directly, but also working prudently.

III.14 cites Aspasia as an expert in how wives train themselves to keep house
VII.3 Ischomachus' wife is "quite capable of looking after the house by herself"
VII.26 women are alike to men in "memory and attention"
X Married women can stop wearing make up

Of course this is all conversations of men about women, but a good insight into what all those Greek matrons did when they were cloistered inside all the time.

[Mike · Rating 3 out of 5]

An interesting conversation between Socrates and Critobulus on how best to manage a household. The topic spills out into a general 'how to' of management which touches everything from national agriculture to training a wife one marries when she is still in her mid-teens. Much of the debate is still relevant to common sense advocates today, though as the end of my previous sentence demonstrates, not all of Xenophon's recollection is as valuable in the 21st century.

[Sergiy · Rating 3 out of 5]

reads like an extension of "memorable thoughts" with a focus on home ec. its a mix between a self help/ motivational book and a business management book. I liked it, but I may be getting a little tired of xenophon at this point. on the plus side I learned the origin of the word draconian.

[James Millikan · Rating 4 out of 5]

Written in the familiar style of the Platonic dialogues, Xenophon’s Oeconomicus (c. 400 B.C.) covers a wide range of issues pertaining to agricultural economics and productivity, and situates these concepts in their larger philosophical context. The result is an engaging read that offers keen insights into leadership in the world of work.

Recommended to economic historians, philosophy students and managers seeking a different perspective than what is generally presented in the contemporary business literature.

[Alp Turgut · Rating 3 out of 5]

Xenophon'un ilk eseri olarak kabul edilen hocası Sokrates'in ağzından Sokratik diyalog olarak kaleme aldığı "İktisat Üzerine - Oikonomikos", mutluluk ve refah içinde yaşamakla ilgili olan ilk kısmı ile dikkat çeken bir eser. İkinci yarısıyla zamanının iktisat ve işletmeciliğiyle ile ilgili olması sebebiyle zamanı düşünüldüğünde aydınlatıcı, günümüz için ise zaman aşımına uğradığını dolayısıyla Platon'un eserleri gibi derin felsefi bir konuşmanın bulunmadığını söylemek mümkün.

03.09.2024
Londra, Birleşik Krallık

Alp Turgut

[Santiago González · Rating 3 out of 5]

Un diálogo de Jenofonte (donde participan personajes como Sócrates) sobre la gestión de la economía doméstica. Muchas perogrulladas y datos sobre la agricultura. Alguna cosa rescatable podría ser su feminismo que, obviamente no se puede comparar al actual pero ahí estaba.

También (según Rothbard) entiende conceptos modernos de economía como la oferta y la demanda, el equilibrio general y la división del trabajo (que ya trato Platón con relativa amplitud en la Republica)

[Laura · Rating 5 out of 5]

I listened to this on audiobook in a version translated and published by an independent publishing house called The Library of Alexandria {not sure this lines up with the exact edition listed in Goodreads}. I found this surprisingly “readable” and now have many practical applications to think upon in my role as a homemaker.

[Ava · Rating 3 out of 5]

For research. I read the Loeb edition. Yeah, it’s pretty dry, but it’s pretty important too. Socrates here doesn’t feel like the typical Socrates we see in Plato. The relationship between Ischomachus and his wife is interesting.

[Meleah · Rating 3 out of 5]

Overall, I enjoyed this book. It was fascinating to encounter truths from the ancient world that still feel relevant and instructive today. Reading Oeconomicus challenged me to reflect on my own habits.

[Ivan Savić · Rating 3 out of 5]

Zanimljivo je samo kao kratak uvid u život na domaćinstivma velikih zemljoposednika, sa slugama i robovima.

[Yasin Çetin · Rating 5 out of 5]

Antikçağ insanı evini nasıl idare ederdi. Bu kitap daha çok ideal bir ev idaresinin nasıl olması gerektiğine odaklanmaktadır.

[Kevin Nobel · Rating 4 out of 5]

The commentary brought a lot of needed context to the text

[Egemen · Rating 5 out of 5]

İnsanın bin yıllar öncesinden bu yana ne kadar benzer motivasyonlara sahip olduğunu ve birikimlerin ne kadar eskiye dayandığını gösteren bir kitap.

[zowii · Rating 1 out of 5]

Me voy a volver LOCA

[Apolline · Rating 3 out of 5]

Ravie d'avoir appris comment on plante un arbre.

[Laura · Rating 5 out of 5]

I read this book with a group of women, and it is so good! It has such practical wisdom for mothers and homemakers. I recommend this book for high schoolers on up.

[lillian · Rating 3 out of 5]

pomeroy's commentary made this bearable. but jesus, dude. men have truly been men-ing forever (and that's not a good thing)