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La civiltà della conversazione
[Trovi un'edizione con copertina alternativa per questo ISBN qui]
Se si dovesse dire in cosa e in quali luoghi si cristallizzò l'ideale della più oziosa, spregiudicata, esigente civiltà europea fra Seicento e Settecento, si potrebbe rispondere: in alcuni salotti di Parigi, dove si celebravano i riti, insieme esoterici e trasparenti, della conversazione. Via via allontanata, per volontà del sovrano, dall'uso della forza come dal potere politico più incisivo, l'aristocrazia spese le sue ultime, dispettose energie nell'elaborare un modo di vivere che pretendeva di raggiungere un traguardo di perfezione a partire dal quale tutto il passato apparisse grezzo e goffo. Con l'ausilio di alcuni geni della socievolezza si creò così una corrente impetuosa che attraversò due secoli e investì vastissimi territori.
Se si dovesse dire in cosa e in quali luoghi si cristallizzò l'ideale della più oziosa, spregiudicata, esigente civiltà europea fra Seicento e Settecento, si potrebbe rispondere: in alcuni salotti di Parigi, dove si celebravano i riti, insieme esoterici e trasparenti, della conversazione. Via via allontanata, per volontà del sovrano, dall'uso della forza come dal potere politico più incisivo, l'aristocrazia spese le sue ultime, dispettose energie nell'elaborare un modo di vivere che pretendeva di raggiungere un traguardo di perfezione a partire dal quale tutto il passato apparisse grezzo e goffo. Con l'ausilio di alcuni geni della socievolezza si creò così una corrente impetuosa che attraversò due secoli e investì vastissimi territori.
651 pages, Paperback
First published January 1, 2001
31 people are currently reading
660 people want to read
About the author
Benedetta Craveri
19 books49 followersBenedetta Craveri, granddaughter of the noted philosopher Benedetto Croce, is a professor of French literature at the University of Tuscia, Viterbo, and a frequent contributor to the New York Review of Books and to the italian newspaper La Repubblica.
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Displaying 1 - 13 of 13 reviews
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July 13, 2015This excellent book forms a companion for Elizabeth Goldsmith's Exclusive Conversations. Craveri sets the stage, and the tone, for the evolution of the salon, focusing in on the woman who shaped the salon, and who were the leaders in devloping the art and style of conversation.
She makes a case for style and art being a way of life, an attitude infinitely seductive--and sometimes difficult to maintain. Especially when one encounters "The Other," i.e. love and attraction.
At times I wished for more detail rather than summaries (for example, in the chapter on the Grand Mademoiselle, Craveri tells us that after she fell in love with Lauzun at age 40, the Grand Mademoiselle suffered humiliation and tragedy, but doesn't detail the stormy arc of that relationship) but it's good summary, with terrific notes and a handy index with succinct reminders of who the many main players were.
She spends time on interesting discussions, such as why French became the language of diplomacy (and French cultural usage the style of diplomacy) in spite of the fact that Italian had long been considered the language of elite culture.
Reread: It also makes a case for the evolution of the modern French novel in describing the rise and fall of the remarkable taste-maker, Madame de Scudéry.
She makes a case for style and art being a way of life, an attitude infinitely seductive--and sometimes difficult to maintain. Especially when one encounters "The Other," i.e. love and attraction.
At times I wished for more detail rather than summaries (for example, in the chapter on the Grand Mademoiselle, Craveri tells us that after she fell in love with Lauzun at age 40, the Grand Mademoiselle suffered humiliation and tragedy, but doesn't detail the stormy arc of that relationship) but it's good summary, with terrific notes and a handy index with succinct reminders of who the many main players were.
She spends time on interesting discussions, such as why French became the language of diplomacy (and French cultural usage the style of diplomacy) in spite of the fact that Italian had long been considered the language of elite culture.
Reread: It also makes a case for the evolution of the modern French novel in describing the rise and fall of the remarkable taste-maker, Madame de Scudéry.
June 16, 2014
Louis XIV locked up his aristocracy in a gilded prison Versailles. He named new aristocrats of the middle-class man deserving to dilute the nobility. In reaction the noble women created the conversation. This very organized ritual made it possible to be recognized as noble and to keep far away indesirable.
It is an structure of space and of time. It is necessary to be allowed. But the conversation is not innocent. The words can kill more surely than weapons.
To the XVIII, it will take a character less formal. One will discuss sciences and the Enlightements. Mrs. Craveri makes us penetrate in these living rooms, in these rooms (they received in her "ruelles"), where women had the power. And from strong personalities release themselves, from Marquise de Rambouillet to Mme de Stael.
We can have a certain nostalgy of the raffinment and this time. And "l'esprit", this particular form of humour, so french.
It is an structure of space and of time. It is necessary to be allowed. But the conversation is not innocent. The words can kill more surely than weapons.
To the XVIII, it will take a character less formal. One will discuss sciences and the Enlightements. Mrs. Craveri makes us penetrate in these living rooms, in these rooms (they received in her "ruelles"), where women had the power. And from strong personalities release themselves, from Marquise de Rambouillet to Mme de Stael.
We can have a certain nostalgy of the raffinment and this time. And "l'esprit", this particular form of humour, so french.
May 19, 2016
I'm just going to point out the mistakes of the summary for this book on Goodreads:
Here, in the first English edition of Benedetta Craveri's recent scholarly study, "Civilt della conversazione," he describes the world of women and French salons in the 17th and 18th centuries.
Benedetta Craveri is a woman. And as for 18th century France, that's perhaps 10% of this book. It focuses (if this book focuses at all) on the 1600s mostly. I thought it would be more expansive. Nor is it a book on salons, which is what I thought, but the title "Age of Conversation" is a clue--and it seems to be mostly this author analyzing certain words or ideals exhaustively.
Salons brought together not only intellectuals (Voltaire was a frequent and much sought-after guest) and socialites, but also members of the political and military worlds.
Also not true. She even states that Voltaire hated the salons and lived in his retreat, avoiding them whenever possible. So not that frequent. Also, she doesn't really stress the politics so much, other than incidentally, and military almost not at all. It is almost exclusively authors that she focuses on. Mostly Rochefoucauld.
The salons allowed differences between these various powerful sectors to be resolved through the art of conversation rather than through the art of war.
The above point is made virtually nowhere in the book (if anything it seemed it started wars rather than preventing), and instead the author posits the interesting idea that they were intended, at least originally, to be idealized personal utopias. Once upon a time, Good King Henry IV, who was besides being a "man of vision and courage" per Wikipedia, also a perverted monster, and raped 3 prepubescent girls before, during or after his son's wedding feast. The timeline is not quite clear in the book, one of the many many annoying things I found within. Well one of the girls, Mme de Rambouillet, decides to have nothing to do with court or the being out at large after that and planned on making her own personal idealized world--creating as an architect one of the most original houses of her day, and painted the main room blue, which apparently no one had ever thought to do before. "She was the first to think of painting a room a color other than red or tan."
The other two girls also hung out in the Blue Room, as did many others, and this kick started popular novels/literature, letter-writing, interior design, the art of conversation, the Enlightenment if you think of it and for Rambouillet some intricate practical jokes. Pretty hilarious jokes too--teasing one acquaintance by serving a dinner of all the foods he hated most, and just as he was at his depth, reveal a new banquet of his favorites. Or another man who she "persuaded that he had eaten poisonous mushrooms and that his body had swollen monstrously because he could not fit into his clothes, which had been secretly removed and taken in." I would definitely like to read a book on Mme de Rambouillet, instead of the hot mess that this book turned out to be. Not sure if editor, or translator, or author, or mix of the three.
This book describes in nonacademic writing the women and the salons, the guests, the conversations, and the political and social environments of the ancien rigime. [sic]
Also wrong--there's nothing "nonacademic" about this, with how dry this book is in parts. Names, dates, unrelated asides, MUCH literary analysis of random people's (often men and nothing to do with salons) letters, the book hops all over. There is some attempt at organizing it by the women involved, but you never hear how majority of things ended for these women, rarely are events placed in historical context, a few dates I noticed were wrong, and half the time you have to go to the footnotes to see who the quotes were from and about. She does quote and cite a lot of people--it's almost as if she took a vast trove of letters from 1650, tossed them in a blender, and lo, this book. I found her 70+ page Bibliography, with her notes on sources, at the end to be the most entertaining part of the book. And I have never seen an Index done in such a crazy way either, although I kind of liked it.
I even thought at times of giving up on this book, but soldiered on because the back cover promised me de Stael, and as I got further and further in the book and still hadn't made it to 1700 yet, I got worried. No real pay off--de Stael has a few quotes and there's a brief bit about her mom in last few pages, so I was tricked. However, as painful as this book was to get through, I'm not 100% sad I read it--it's been ages since I've read Princesse de Cleves, so I am going to reread that and I want to read Voiture now, so it's given me a good idea of where to go next.
Here, in the first English edition of Benedetta Craveri's recent scholarly study, "Civilt della conversazione," he describes the world of women and French salons in the 17th and 18th centuries.
Benedetta Craveri is a woman. And as for 18th century France, that's perhaps 10% of this book. It focuses (if this book focuses at all) on the 1600s mostly. I thought it would be more expansive. Nor is it a book on salons, which is what I thought, but the title "Age of Conversation" is a clue--and it seems to be mostly this author analyzing certain words or ideals exhaustively.
Salons brought together not only intellectuals (Voltaire was a frequent and much sought-after guest) and socialites, but also members of the political and military worlds.
Also not true. She even states that Voltaire hated the salons and lived in his retreat, avoiding them whenever possible. So not that frequent. Also, she doesn't really stress the politics so much, other than incidentally, and military almost not at all. It is almost exclusively authors that she focuses on. Mostly Rochefoucauld.
The salons allowed differences between these various powerful sectors to be resolved through the art of conversation rather than through the art of war.
The above point is made virtually nowhere in the book (if anything it seemed it started wars rather than preventing), and instead the author posits the interesting idea that they were intended, at least originally, to be idealized personal utopias. Once upon a time, Good King Henry IV, who was besides being a "man of vision and courage" per Wikipedia, also a perverted monster, and raped 3 prepubescent girls before, during or after his son's wedding feast. The timeline is not quite clear in the book, one of the many many annoying things I found within. Well one of the girls, Mme de Rambouillet, decides to have nothing to do with court or the being out at large after that and planned on making her own personal idealized world--creating as an architect one of the most original houses of her day, and painted the main room blue, which apparently no one had ever thought to do before. "She was the first to think of painting a room a color other than red or tan."
The other two girls also hung out in the Blue Room, as did many others, and this kick started popular novels/literature, letter-writing, interior design, the art of conversation, the Enlightenment if you think of it and for Rambouillet some intricate practical jokes. Pretty hilarious jokes too--teasing one acquaintance by serving a dinner of all the foods he hated most, and just as he was at his depth, reveal a new banquet of his favorites. Or another man who she "persuaded that he had eaten poisonous mushrooms and that his body had swollen monstrously because he could not fit into his clothes, which had been secretly removed and taken in." I would definitely like to read a book on Mme de Rambouillet, instead of the hot mess that this book turned out to be. Not sure if editor, or translator, or author, or mix of the three.
This book describes in nonacademic writing the women and the salons, the guests, the conversations, and the political and social environments of the ancien rigime. [sic]
Also wrong--there's nothing "nonacademic" about this, with how dry this book is in parts. Names, dates, unrelated asides, MUCH literary analysis of random people's (often men and nothing to do with salons) letters, the book hops all over. There is some attempt at organizing it by the women involved, but you never hear how majority of things ended for these women, rarely are events placed in historical context, a few dates I noticed were wrong, and half the time you have to go to the footnotes to see who the quotes were from and about. She does quote and cite a lot of people--it's almost as if she took a vast trove of letters from 1650, tossed them in a blender, and lo, this book. I found her 70+ page Bibliography, with her notes on sources, at the end to be the most entertaining part of the book. And I have never seen an Index done in such a crazy way either, although I kind of liked it.
I even thought at times of giving up on this book, but soldiered on because the back cover promised me de Stael, and as I got further and further in the book and still hadn't made it to 1700 yet, I got worried. No real pay off--de Stael has a few quotes and there's a brief bit about her mom in last few pages, so I was tricked. However, as painful as this book was to get through, I'm not 100% sad I read it--it's been ages since I've read Princesse de Cleves, so I am going to reread that and I want to read Voiture now, so it's given me a good idea of where to go next.
April 28, 2008
This is a great book for anyone wanting to understand the emergence and impact of 17th- and 18th-century French salon culture. Like many books on the subject, it focuses on the role of women in creating and maintaining salons. Also, the book sheds a lot of light on the drives and concerns of aristocrats of the period.
One of the things that caught my attention was the fashion for writing "portraits" of one's fellow socialites. It's hard to think of an equivalent in today's culture. I think the closest thing would be having an article written about you in a magazine.
Another thing is, a lot of people died from VD. Can you imagine dying from VD? The author says most women detested sex and thought of marriage as a necessary evil. I don't blame them.
The book also talks about salons bringing about the end of medieval romance -- "chivalry". Women wanted to be appreciated for their minds instead of just their beauty and "purity". Salons valued what women valued and since salons ruled, women ruled, for once (at least in salons). Men went from having to prove their physical superiority to having to prove their superior gentility and wit. It's interesting how that same transformation seems to be happening to this day.
Of course, there are a lot of anecdotes about the practical jokes and extravagant spectacles that made salons legendary and increased their attractiveness. But there is so much more, as you can see.
One of the things that caught my attention was the fashion for writing "portraits" of one's fellow socialites. It's hard to think of an equivalent in today's culture. I think the closest thing would be having an article written about you in a magazine.
Another thing is, a lot of people died from VD. Can you imagine dying from VD? The author says most women detested sex and thought of marriage as a necessary evil. I don't blame them.
The book also talks about salons bringing about the end of medieval romance -- "chivalry". Women wanted to be appreciated for their minds instead of just their beauty and "purity". Salons valued what women valued and since salons ruled, women ruled, for once (at least in salons). Men went from having to prove their physical superiority to having to prove their superior gentility and wit. It's interesting how that same transformation seems to be happening to this day.
Of course, there are a lot of anecdotes about the practical jokes and extravagant spectacles that made salons legendary and increased their attractiveness. But there is so much more, as you can see.
August 10, 2020
If given the option I would've given this book 3.5 stars instead of just 3. I enjoyed all of the mini biographies throughout the book. The author was easy to read & understand, and was obviously well informed on all her subjects. My biggest complaint was how anti-climactic the ending was. The last chapter is 40 pages long and, rather than wrapping things up & coming to a close, the author rattled on and on. Therefore, as a reader, I became bored in the final pages. The book also ended abruptly leaving me unsatisfied. In other words, what was included (for the most part) was highly interesting and amused me greatly, but it fell short of my expectations.
April 5, 2020
Saggio eccellente per sapere di più sul fenomeno del "salotto" francese nel Seicento e Settecento, che non è stato solo un luogo di chiacchiere frivole e divertissement, ma ha saputo sviluppare e dare forma alla società, alla letteratura, alla lingua e filosofia francese. Stile fluido e scorrevole, molto coinvolgente, ci sono molte citazioni (tutte documentate) e sono tutte contestualizzate, elaborate e spiegate, ci tengo a sottolinearlo, visto che tra i vari commenti ci sono anche critiche sul numero delle citazioni presenti nel testo.
July 22, 2011
Où l'on apprend pourquoi la noblesse s'est tournée vers la culture, comment le français s'est fixé, d'où vient cette passion pour la conversation, la littérature, la philosophie dans les salons du 17 et18eme parisiens.
September 3, 2020
J'aime beaucoup les figures féminines emblématiques du Grand Siècle (et du suivant)—Madame de Rambouillet, du Deffand, de La Fayette, Ninon de Lenclos..., et c'est toujours un plaisir de les retrouver d'un livre sur l'autre. Celui-ci savait bien doser l'anecdote, l'analyse et les extraits de correspondance, et je n'ai pas vu les 700 pages passer. La fin m'a un peu prise par surprise ; rien dans le ton ni dans le rythme du dernier chapitre n'annonçait une conclusion jusqu'aux tout derniers paragraphes, la halte est abrupte. Loin d'avoir hâte que ça se termine, j'ai acheté 'Mme du Deffand et son monde' du même auteur à mi-lecture afin de pouvoir continuer sur ma lancée. (J'ai finalement préféré la première moitié à la seconde, probablement parce que la narration suit un ordre chronologique, et le XVIIe est plus léger et amusant que le XVIIIe.)
L'un de mes passages préférés, et très représentatif de l'esprit de salon :
L'un de mes passages préférés, et très représentatif de l'esprit de salon :
Depuis les temps de l'hôtel de Rambouillet les femmes avaient une double fonction pédagogique : enseigner les bienséances et veiller à la pureté de la langue. Dans la Chambre bleue, Julie d'Angennes n'était pas la seule à se passionner pour les questions linguistiques. Sa sœur Angélique Clarice, qui passait pour le prototype des Précieuses, "s'esvanouissait quand elle entendoit un meschant mot". Plus d'un siècle après, Mademoiselle de Lespinasse n'était pas moins vétilleuse : Morellet raconte qu'ayant entendu chez Madame Geoffrin le célèbre Buffon utiliser une expression populaire du genre "c'est une autre paire de manches", Julie fut littéralement bouleversée, s'effondra dans un fauteuil et "n'en revint pas de la soirée".
June 20, 2024
2,5/5 étoiles
Un survol accessible de la sociabilité de l'Ancien Régime
Ne réussit cependant pas à déconstruire le mythe de l'exceptionnalité des femmes de lettres au sens où l'ouvrage ne traite que des grands noms de l'époque à partir desquels il tente (mais ne réussit pas toujours) de tracer le portrait de l'époque (en plus, la plupart des femmes sont présentées à travers leurs relations, le plus souvent amoureuses, avec des hommes)
Un survol accessible de la sociabilité de l'Ancien Régime
Ne réussit cependant pas à déconstruire le mythe de l'exceptionnalité des femmes de lettres au sens où l'ouvrage ne traite que des grands noms de l'époque à partir desquels il tente (mais ne réussit pas toujours) de tracer le portrait de l'époque (en plus, la plupart des femmes sont présentées à travers leurs relations, le plus souvent amoureuses, avec des hommes)
February 27, 2021
This was a dense book; I had to keep putting it down and returning to it to give myself time to digest. But it told a beautiful story, full of fascinating women and the salons that they created to give space to discussion, improvisation, poetry and the like, in the centuries leading up to the Revolution.
May 29, 2025
Sobre las mujeres que crearon salones literarios en Francia durante el siglo XVII y cómo cambiaron la percepción sobre la literatura, la lengua e incluso las clases sociales. Unas ídolas absolutas.
February 18, 2019
Molto interessante e completa soprattutto la prima parte, dedicata al XVII secolo. Una prospettiva insolita sulla storia che, pur essendo dichiaratamente "parziale" (le donne, la cerchia nobiliare, gli istruiti) riesce comunque a trasmettere il gusto di un particolare milieu storico e sociale.
September 7, 2007
I've read this one twice... a fairly academic look at the the social rules and etiquette of 17th and 18th century France. Profiles all of the main women (and a couple of men) who set up the major salons... Everyone from Mme. Rambouillet to Mme. de Stael. Very informative and well-written (could have used a better editor though!)
Displaying 1 - 13 of 13 reviews