Fantasy Aficionados discussion

I'm creating a Listopia for strong women characters in fantasy.

http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/24...

Help me with the list, please! Here are the requirements:

The book must feature/star a STRONG main female character. If she is in a relationship/partnership with a guy, she must not need (regular) rescuing, be able to take care of herself, and intelligent. This means no silly women who think they don’t need help as well.

Also, no Ana Steeles or Bella Swans. No emotionally dysfunctional relationships (this means YOU Beautiful Disaster).

I don't mind if you have a better way to word what I'm looking for, too.

LOve it. Off to look.

Love this too, right off the bat Serene Elantris from and Mara from Daughter of the Empirepops to mind.

Off to look for some more~~

Edit: Amaranthe Lokdon from The Emperor's Edge

Thanks so much!

Vin from Mistborn: The Final Empire (and sequels) would qualify.

SO, now I have remembered why I hate Listopias: Random people.

A person voted (and added) some books to my list - most of them are historical romances.

I'm so tempted to delete them and then put in the header NO ROMANCES. Not that I have a problem with Romances (I don't) but because I am very anal about genres. Romance ≠ Fantasy.


What to do?? I'm sure she's a very nice person and she added a few other great options (Jennine Frost) but...

I would delete them. You have made clear the theme and maybe she just got excited and forgot.

MrsJoseph wrote: "SO, now I have remembered why I hate Listopias: Random people.

A person voted (and added) some books to my list - most of them are historical romances.

I'm so tempted to delete them and then p..."

If you mean the Outlander series...they are kinda-sorta fantasy as they are about time travel as well as the romance :)

Otherwise, I say It's your list...remove away (of course with a kind explanation in the comment section..

MrsJoseph wrote: "SO, now I have remembered why I hate Listopias: Random people.

A person voted (and added) some books to my list - most of them are historical romances.

I'm so tempted to delete them and then p..."

I've seen that happen more than once on some listopias.

HOwever, I don't see the harm in deleting the romance ones and specifying that it is a genre specific listopia. You could always message her and let her know why, though I doubt that she would take offence to it (unless she is an immature person).

Would Kahlan from the Sword of Truth series make the cut? She is pretty kickass, even though she requires Richard's help sometimes. Although I read somewhere that Goodkind may not be a very liked author so she might not get any votes!

I'd like to nominate Claudia Cole from 'Claudia's Surrender' (one of my books).

That's the thing about Listopias. Anyone can add a book. It requires Librarian status to remove a book, however.

Also, librarians regularly get kicked out of the program for deleting books on Listopia...UNLESS they do not fit the cannon of the List.

Kim wrote: "If you mean the Outlander series...they are kinda-sorta fantasy as they are about time travel as well as the romance :)

Otherwise, I say It's your list...remove away (of course with a kind explanation in the comment section.."


Ahh, remember that I said I was anal about genres? Yup, very anal rententive.

Romance (like all other genres) has sub-genres. I would file Outlander under Romance, historical, time travel. All under the heading of "Romance."

Nitpicky? You bet! ;-)

I added:

- anyone who can (view spoiler)[eat demons is pretty strong and bad-ass in my book (hide spoiler)]


- Senneth is the bomb in this whole series. Strong, focused and can control fire.

Yep....they are definitely more romance and historical but I could see where she would make the mistake and think that they are appropriate for your list. Since you can't remove them maybe a friendly message telling her the intentions of your list and maybe she'll be kind enough to remove them. I know I would without taking it the wrong way.

Tina wrote: "I added:

- anyone who can [spoilers removed]


- Senneth is the bomb in this whole series. Strong, focused and can control fire.

[bookco..."

*facepalm* I can't believe I forgot Paks.

Kim wrote: "Yep....they are definitely more romance and historical but I could see where she would make the mistake and think that they are appropriate for your list. Since you can't remove them maybe a frien..."

Oh, I agree! I don't think she was being mean or funny. I'm just anal. A lot of people file a lot of books under multiple genres. I'm just too anal for that. I like my genres and sub-genres to be completely separate.

The reason I didn't contact her is that with all the crazy author madness going around GR - sometimes PMs feel funky to a lot of people. I'm good with them but a lot of people have been saying they are really unhappy.

I would just add in the comment section why it was removed. I mean if it were a list for fantasy romance you wouldn't expect to add A Game of Thrones. Right? Maybe if you feel bad or whatever you can do a similar list for romance heroines.

Traci wrote: "I would just add in the comment section why it was removed. I mean if it were a list for fantasy romance you wouldn't expect to add A Game of Thrones. Right? Maybe if you feel bad or whatever you c..."

That's great idea!

Arrows of the Queen This would definitely be fantasy, and a coming of age tale. The heroine may not start out strong, but as the series progresses, she definitely grows into the role of champion.

Main character in God Stalk. She does all the rescuing while she investigates the mystery of the gods.

Granted, I didn't finish Andrews' The Edge series, but it smacked of romance to me. I think they think of it as more romance-heavy.

Here it is for Romance. http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/24...

I figured I'd start it, first.

Carol wrote: "Granted, I didn't finish Andrews' The Edge series, but it smacked of romance to me. I think they think of it as more romance-heavy."

I haven't read The Edge so I really couldn't say. I'll take your word on it.

MrsJoseph wrote: "...Also, librarians regularly get kicked out of the program for deleting books on Listopia...UNLESS they do not fit the cannon of the List."


So, would books that "do not fit the cannon of the list" be described as "not of the appropriate literary caliber?"

Carol wrote: "Granted, I didn't finish Andrews' The Edge series, but it smacked of romance to me. I think they think of it as more romance-heavy."

I would agree. One book per couple. Romance seems to be the focus with fantasy/pnr elements as the setting.

S.J. wrote: "I'd like to nominate Claudia Cole from 'Claudia's Surrender' (one of my books)."

Not appropriate in terms of 'no romance.' If it is. The cover looks very porn-ish.

Here are a few I thought of, along with the female character(s), that I've added to the list.
If they don't quite fit just remove them. I really won't mind or let me know and I'll take them off:

The Black Jewels Trilogy: Daughter of the Blood, Heir to the Shadows, Queen of the Darkness (Janelle)

The Warded Man (Leesha)
The Desert Spear (leesha and Renna)

Green Rider (Karigan G'ladheon)
First Rider's Call (Karigan G'ladheon)
The High King's Tomb (Karigan G'ladheon)

Chronicles of The Black Company (The White Rose and Lady)
The Books of the South: Tales of the Black Company(Lady)
The Return of the Black Company (Lady)
The Many Deaths of the Black Company (Sleepy and Sahra)

The Wayfarer Redemption (Azhure and Faraday)
Enchanter (Azhure and Faraday)
Starman (Azhure and Faraday)

The Sword of Truth, Boxed Set I: Wizard's First Rule, Blood of the Fold, Stone of Tears (Khalan, Cara, Nicci, Adie)
The Sword of Truth Boxed Set II: Temple of the Winds; Soul of the Fire; Faith of the Fallen(Khalan, Cara, Nicci, Adie)
The Sword of Truth, Boxed Set III: The Pillars of Creation, Naked Empire, Chainfire (Khalan, Cara, Nicci, Adie)

Kamla, I'd disagree with you on the Black Company, which is largely about, well... the Black Company. Sure, the Lady is a motivator, but she is a behind the scenes manipulator at best. I don't think you could call her a central character at all, at least in the first three books. I think she represents a lot to the group, but rarely appears as a person.

Carol wrote: "Kamla, I'd disagree with you on the Black Company, which is largely about, well... the Black Company. Sure, the Lady is a motivator, but she is a behind the scenes manipulator at best. I don't thin..."

Carol, although Lady's role in book 3 is a lot more tangible than behind the scenes, I can get what you're saying (maybe)in regards to the first 3books. However, in books 5 through 8 Lady is running the show. In fact, she is the Company's Captain for most of these books, sometimes chronicler and/or lieutenant, and overall company bad-ass.

The ones I can think of at this late hour that haven't been added are:

The Enchantment Emporium which has an entire family of very strong women.

Summon the Keeper
The Second Summoning
Long Hot Summoning

These are all by the same author Tanya Huff

Is YA acceptable? If so, the I'd like to add Crown Duel by Sherwood Smith.

This is a great list! I'm always looking for these types of books.

A couple of suggestions from UF:
I just read one that I really think counts: This Case Is Gonna Kill Me. I think it has the stronger feminist voice I've encountered in UF so far. (view spoiler)[The protagonist does all the standard fighting stuff, but the part that stood out for me: a partner in her firm is the standard UF "player" vampire who seduces her and drops her, just as he has every female employee before her. But rather than being shamed and silenced, she breaks the silence, publicly confronts him, and warns all new female employees about his behavior. (hide spoiler)]

Another might be the Greywalker series. My library doesn't have the first, so I haven't read it, but the rest of the series seem to qualify.

Monstrous Regiment by Terry Pratchett is one of the most cogent and thoughtful explorations of feminism I've read in a while. A lot of the protagonists, including the main one, are female. They are basically all strong. No romance. GR lists it as part of a series, but it's a standalone.

I added them, but if any are problematic, please feel free to remove them.

Daughter of the Forest...has romance but the story is about getting through her trials...

S.J. wrote: "I'd like to nominate Claudia Cole from 'Claudia's Surrender' (one of my books)."



Hey SJ. I wouldn't consider this book a non-romance. But it does look interesting.

Kamla wrote: "Chronicles of The Black Company (The White Rose and Lady)
The Books of the South: Tales of the Black Company(Lady)
The Return of the Black Company (Lady)
The Many Deaths of the Black Company (Sleepy and Sahra)"

I haven't read the remaining books of the series, but I would def. take the first 3 books off the list. I barely saw any women there. As I haven't read the rest, I'll defer to your knowledge.

Kamla wrote: "

The Sword of Truth Boxed Set II: Temple of the Winds; Soul of the Fire; Faith of the Fallen (Khalan, Cara, Nicci, Adie)
The Sword of Truth Boxed Set II: Temple of the Winds; Soul of the Fire; Faith of the Fallen(Khalan, Cara, Nicci, Adie)
The Sword of Truth, Boxed Set III: The Pillars of Creation, Naked Empire, Chainfire (Khalan, Cara, Nicci, Adie)"

With these...I have a question.

I've tried to purge Goodkind from my head. I *think* I've heard a lot of people say this series was misogynistic.

Comments, anyone?

Sophie wrote: "The ones I can think of at this late hour that haven't been added are:

The Enchantment Emporium which has an entire family of very strong women.

Summon the Keeper
The Second Summoning
Long Hot S..."


Yep! YA is acceptable.

TO be honest, I got the idea for this list from Laurel. She made a comment about how her females students were eying 50 Shades of Grey after finishing Twilight.

I thought that having a list like this - available at a click - could possibly give a young girl a good read without venturing into erotica before they get to the 8th grade. It could also help a teacher or parent find some books with women characters who aren't typical, think for themselves, are strong and show intelligence. AND shows that even if she's in a relationship with a dreamy guy (*sigh, Curran*) that she won't fall apart and forget about other important stuff.

I have added Jane Yellowrock
Skinwalker Blood CrossMercy Blade Raven Cursed
The writing in series may not be perfect but you just have to love the main character Jane!

I am also going to add Jilly Coppercorn from the Newforld series. She may not be your typical "kick ass" character. She does not do martial arts or carry a gun, but she most certainly is a strong woman.
Dreams Underfoot The Onion Girl Widdershins Promises to Keep

also Grace from De Lint's The Mystery of Grace

Almost of Isabel Allende female characters are strong although she is not straight fantasy.

I agree about Tanya Huffs Enchantment Emporium.

I was writing this before your last post.
I would obviously not recommend Jane Yellowrock, or Enchantment Emporium for an 8th grader!

Kamla wrote: "Carol, although Lady's role in book 3 is a lot more tangible than behind the scenes, I can get what you're saying (maybe)in regards to the first 3books. However, in books 5 through 8 Lady is running the show. In fact, she is the Company's Captain for most of these books, sometimes chronicler and/or lieutenant, and overall company bad-ass."

That sounds interesting. Maybe I stopped the series too soon--I became tired of the general style and general bleakness of the story. Not to mention all the rape and killing of the populace.

Jalilah wrote: "I have added Jane Yellowrock
Skinwalker Blood CrossMercy Blade Raven Cursed
The writing in series may not be perfect but you just have to love the main character Jane!

I am also going to add Jil..."

Haha! Agree to the whole post. I loved Enchantment Emporium, esp. the second time through, but it does have some rather unusual sexuality.

MrsJoseph wrote: "Kamla wrote: "

The Sword of Truth Boxed Set II: Temple of the Winds; Soul of the Fire; Faith of the Fallen (Khalan, Cara, Nicci, Adie)
The Sword of Truth Boxed Set II: Temple of the Winds; Soul of..."

I have read the whole series and I don't think they are misogynistic. There are a lot of very strong female characters in the books, I believe more so than the male characters. There are also women being used and abused but the men are killed and abused in a lot of the stories as well. It don't recall it being one-sided :-)

Possibly some of Marion Zimmer Bradley's work, such as The Mists of Avalon and some of the Darkover books, particularly the ones featuring the Renunciates.

MrsJoseph wrote: "I haven't read the remaining books of the series, but I would def. take the first 3 books off the list. I barely saw any women there. As I haven't read the rest, I'll defer to your knowledge. ..."

I removed the first omnibus,
Chronicles of The Black Company. But when you say "I barely saw any women there", I have to wonder how much attention you paid to what you were reading. Soulcatcher, Whisper, and Stormbringer were all women not to mention book 3 is all about the final showdown between Darling/The White Rose and Lady and they were both very up front in the action.

Jalilah wrote: "I was writing this before your last post.
I would obviously not recommend Jane Yellowrock, or Enchantment Emporium for an 8th grader! "


Don't worry about it! I totally want this to be an adult list - but there are books that can be weeded out for the youngsters. :-D

That was just where my inspiration came from.

Kamla wrote: "MrsJoseph wrote: "I haven't read the remaining books of the series, but I would def. take the first 3 books off the list. I barely saw any women there. As I haven't read the rest, I'll defer to yo..."

Yes, I know. But in comparison to the cast of characters...having a handful of women isn't very much.

Book 1 had...3 I think?

Carol wrote: "That sounds interesting. Maybe I stopped the series too soon--I became tired of the general style and general bleakness of the story. Not to mention all the rape and killing of the populace. ..."

I realize that The Black Company is not for everyones' tastes but I enjoyed the whole series immensely. It is however militaristic dark fantasy and as such emulates war during the dark and medieval eras where such things were quite prevalent. Besides, when it comes to war, things haven't changed much over the past 600 years or so. Although alluded to, I don't recall any actual sexual rape occurring.

Not really on page, no. But it was there... and no one stopped it.

:-(

Kim wrote: "MrsJoseph wrote: "Kamla wrote: "

The Sword of Truth Boxed Set II: Temple of the Winds; Soul of the Fire; Faith of the Fallen (Khalan, Cara, Nicci, Adie)
The Sword of Truth Boxed Set II: Temple of ..."

Thanks, Kim.

More importantly, I think when you are looking at books with strong women, certain other indirect characteristics need to be met: is there only one strong women (who perhaps is the ideal/goddess) and the rest exist as plot tools? Is the storyline focused on the journey/conflict the woman faces, or is she merely supporting plot dynamics (as I feel is the case in the first three Black Company)? Is/are the women portrayed in a way that represents a multitude of experience and feelings, or does she/they exist as tropes? Strong women characters who exist in a vacuum, with no other equally multifaceted characters make me very suspicious.

Oh, and MrsJ, I think I'd include The Fiovar Tapestry series for a multitude of interesting women, especially Kim.

Carol wrote: "More importantly, I think when you are looking at books with strong women, certain other indirect characteristics need to be met: is there only one strong women (who perhaps is the ideal/goddess) a..."

OMG. Yoink!

I'm so stealing this and putting it in the description.

Cool, I'll add them.