Classics and the Western Canon discussion

In Book 5, the shade of Anchises appears to advise Aeneas. Among other things, Anchises tells Aeneas that he must seek the Sibyl of Cumae, who will guide him to Elysium where they will speak again. Book 6 is the story of that journey.

Some possible discussion questions:

The book begins with an extended allusion to the Daedalus myth. How does this fit into the story of Aeneas' journey through the underworld?

There seem to be a lot of souls in limbo, countrymen of Aeneas who have not been properly buried or given funeral rites. Palinurus, Misenus, and Deiphobus all share this plight. Why does Vergil focus on this problem?

Aeneas meets Dido once again. Aeneas again repeats the reasons for his leaving, but she still burns for him and says nothing. She returns to the forest, "where Sychaeus felt for her sorrow and returned her love." It isn't clear if Sychaeus is actually there with her in limbo, but if he is, why?

Does Vergil believe in reincarnation, or something similar to it?

What about the gates of sleep? One is of horn, through which "true shades" pass easily. The other is of ivory, through which " spirits send false dreams up toward the sky." Aeneas passes through the ivory gate. Does this mean that this journey through the underworld is all just a dream?

I was thinking that she must be carrying a torch for him if she's still that angry with him. But that may not be right -- she feels she was deceived, and she holds him responsible (or so Aeneas thinks) so maybe that's the reason for the quiet treatment. Aeneas does feel guilty, and yes, that is a big difference between Homer and Vergil. The lack of conscience in Homer's heroes is one of the things that makes Homer seem "strange," I think.

Nice observation about the even books, though 1 and 3 aren't bad either. 5 seemed sort of transitional.

Book 6 appears to be Dante's Inferno in miniature. Considering that Virgil serves as the Poet's guide, I guess I am stating the obvious but it is striking all the same.

Both Virgil and Cicero were "adopted" by the church fathers as Christian writers because of what was seen as similarities between their moral and ethical viewpoint and those of Christianity. Of course, it probably helps that early Christian theology was worked out within the context of the philosophical systems of antiquity. Initially neoplatinism was dominant. In the high middle ages Aristotelian philosophy became dominant.

I'm not sure if the Aeneid as a whole is a religious book, but Book 6 most definitely is. I think Max said earlier that the Fourth Eclogue, the "Messianic Eclogue," has been identified as a point of special interest for Christians. But here in Book 6 the theology seems quite distinct from Christianity -- I can't quite imagine how Christians would reconcile Vergil's account of the underworld with their theology. But on general grounds -- that human lives have purpose, that we each have a duty and a destiny -- they have areas of agreement.

"Let the punishment fit the crime" is in evidence in both book 6 and the Divine Comedy. The fact that Dante make Virgil the guide in the lower realms makes the allusion explicit. The Scholastic theologeans of the high middle ages see a model in Virgil.

It's probably obvious, but I thought it was striking, too, Eric. It's like Dante is having a conversation with Virgil where he accepts his (under)world view and then expands upon it.

Did I miss it or did Aeneas not even ask about his late wife? You'd think at the very least he'd want to reassure her about their son.

Patrice wrote: "How faint these lives were --empty IMAGES (!!!!)
Hovering bodiless--had he attacked
And cut his way through phantoms, empty air.""

There is a wealth of imagery in this episode, and what makes it particularly suspicious (in a Platonic sort of way) are the gates at the end. Aeneas passes through the ivory gate, the one of false dreams. That makes a whole lot of sense to me if the episode is seen as something akin to the "myth of the cave" in the Republic.

Patrice wrote: "Max had mentioned Medea. It seems that the golden bough is a take off on the golden fleece."

I don't get the connection between the golden bough and the fleece. Is there a connection between the fleece and the underworld? Help me out with this one.

Patrice wrote: "I remembered that Plato wrote a lot about this so i listened to a bit of the Phaedo today. Virgil took a lot from it. The belief in reincarnation is clearly expressed there.."

How about the myth of Er (in the Republic)? It sounds very similar to the process of rebirth that Vergil describes, though not identical.

I'm sure both Phaedo and the Myth of Er were in Vergil's mind. But isn't Vergil's story also a "noble lie"? It seems that way to me at the end of book 6 when we see the regeneration of the great families of Rome. The voyage through the underworld seems to have this end in mind, to justify the veneration of these men.

Those were open questions -- I certainly don't have the answers. I think you hit on the main connection though, that Aeneas needs a guide to the labyrinth of the underworld. But thinking about the Republic has been helpful, and I wonder if the Daedalus myth ties into it in some way. Daedalus is the master craftsman, the builder of the temple and the carver of the images on the doors. Aeneas becomes lost in the images of the door until the Sibyl arrives and tells him to quit gawking. She leads him out of those images just as she leads him out of the "images" of the underworld.

Vergil is himself an artist, a poet, and I wonder if there is anything self-referential in the way he writes about the doors. Does he see himself as a kind of Daedalus? Pure speculation, of course, but like the Aeneid, the doors are also unfinished. Daedalus can't finish his carving because of the grief he has for Icarus, who flew too close to the sun. And who would be the cause of Vergil's grief?

I'm probably making my own labyrinth here, but it's an enigmatic passage.

Yes, much war and bloodshed are to follow. But it's all for the sake of peace! These are great lines, delivered by Anchises to Aeneas toward the end of Book 6:

But Romans, don't forget that world dominion
Is your great craft: peace, and then peaceful customs;
Sparing the conquered, striking down the haughty. 6.851

And the panegyric on Marcellus follows. What do you suppose Anchises mean when he says, "You will be Marcellus?"

Eric wrote: "Book 6 appears to be Dante's Inferno in miniature. Considering that Virgil serves as the Poet's guide, I guess I am stating the obvious but it is striking all the same."

I felt that, too.

"Never shrink from blows.
Boldly, more boldly where your luck allows,
Go forward, face them." (Fitz 6:143)

I was browsing books on ancient Rome in a bookstore and there was a description of the Roman armies that fit this quote almost exactly.