Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Virgil - Aeneid
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Aeneid Book 7
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That makes a lot of sense considering how many lines Vergil devotes to the different Italian tribes. You wouldn't think that the "enemy" would deserve the catalogue that he gives them at the end of Book 7, but these were the people who were eventually absorbed into the Roman nation. He is giving them due respect, at least in part because they are the Romans' ancestors.
Patrice wrote: "I was a bit surprised by how quickly Latinus was willing to give his daughter away to a stranger."
Latinus honors the oracle of Faunus, his father, by doing so. Also, Lavinia's hair catches fire (or seems to) just as Iulus' did when they were escaping Troy. (I still don't get the significance of flaming hair.) But in any case, there seem to be religious reasons for the alliance with the foreigners.
It's definitely not the "natural" thing to do. Do we get any sense that Latinus understands the consequences of his decision? I don't recall if we do... my impression was that he doesn't have that kind of awareness.
This was my concern when we voted to read the Aeneid, and frankly, it's the reason I didn't vote for it. The second half of the book is frequently neglected in favor of the first half, I think for the same reason that Homer's Odyssey has always been more popular than the Iliad. But the last book of the Aeneid is worth the effort to reach it. I hope there are a few of us left for it!
Some unconnected notes and questions about book 7:Vergil writes that "This is a higher story starting, A greater work for me." (7.43) Is it also a more difficult story to tell? What makes it "greater" than the previous story?
As in Book 1, there is a metaphor concerning bees. In the first case, 1.430, the Tyrians building the new city of Carthage are compared to bees. Here in Book 7 the bees are a metaphor for the "foreigners" arriving on Lavinian shores. (7.64)
Upon arriving, the Trojans send peace offerings to Latinus, but they build a military camp, "with battlements and ramparts." Hope for peace but prepare for war?
Aeneas sends an emissary, Ilioneus, to Latinus; he does not go himself. Latinus is a descendant of Picus, the first king of Latium. Picus was at one point bewitched by Circe and turned into a woodpecker. And as a peace offering Latinus sends Ilioneus back to Aeneas with a pair of fire-breating stallions that were bred by Circe. How does Circe fit into the plan of the story? How is Latinus or his family like Circe?
Patrice wrote: "Well, that makes me feel better! lolI'll keep plugging away and so at least I can be proud that I completed it."
We few, we happy few.
Just a couple more things about Book 7 that stand out for me. There are a number of parallels with Book 1, but the main one concerns Juno. The heart of the book is about how Juno steers the Trojans and Italians to war, putting the anger featured in Book 1 into action. Latinus is a fairly clement old man who doesn't seem inclined to war, which is perhaps why Juno goes after his wife. She sends the Fury, Allecto, to poison Amata. She throws one of the snakes that make up her hair into Amata's bodice, where it twines her neck "like a gold chain" and hangs like a "ribbon from her headband." Allecto speaks gently, "motherly", to Amata... this furor has a decidedly feminine quality.
She then pretends to be in a Bacchic trance and hides Lavinia in the woods to make sure that she doesn't marry Aeneas. She calls other mothers to join her, and later, after Allecto has inflamed Turnus with anger,
The families of the matrons running wild
Through trackless woods in Bacchic bands now gathered
(For Amata's name had weight), demanding war,
Evil war. Everyone was now possessed... (7.580, Ruden)
The senators declare war, and Latinus is called upon by custom to open the gates of war. But he refuses. He actually runs away and hides. Juno herself opens the door.
It calls into question the role of women in this war. They are not mere bystanders, like the Trojan women on the wall of Priam's castle in the Iliad. They are not just victims of circumstance. Italian women are directly involved in the affairs of war, and are used by Juno in a direct way to start it.
Thomas wrote: "Patrice wrote: "Well, that makes me feel better! lol
I'll keep plugging away and so at least I can be proud that I completed it."
We few, we happy few."
Lol perfect!
I'll keep plugging away and so at least I can be proud that I completed it."
We few, we happy few."
Lol perfect!
Thomas wrote: "That makes a lot of sense considering how many lines Vergil devotes to the different Italian tribes. You wouldn't think that the "enemy" would deserve the catalogue that he gives them at the end of...but these were the people who were eventually absorbed into the Roman nation. He is giving them due respect, at least in part because they are the Romans' ancestors. "
I think that's a great point. Kinda like when we were discussing the rollcall of ships in The Iliad. And compared it to the Olympics. Most of the readers of Virgil would have known most of these names. They would want to hear the names of their own people.
And i would think, too, that virgil is making a point. Here, he says, were people filled with anger, enthusiastically killing one another, and yet...they eventually became one people, proud of all being Romans,
I think, perhaps, Virgil is putting this forward for the Romans of his own time, those who have been fighting bitter civil wars. Look, Virgil, I think, is saying, WE TOO, even all this anger and death, we, too, can become one people...
I think that's a great point. Kinda like when we were discussing the rollcall of ships in The Iliad. And compared it to the Olympics. Most of the readers of Virgil would have known most of these names. They would want to hear the names of their own people.
And i would think, too, that virgil is making a point. Here, he says, were people filled with anger, enthusiastically killing one another, and yet...they eventually became one people, proud of all being Romans,
I think, perhaps, Virgil is putting this forward for the Romans of his own time, those who have been fighting bitter civil wars. Look, Virgil, I think, is saying, WE TOO, even all this anger and death, we, too, can become one people...
Thomas wrote: "Some unconnected notes and questions about book 7:
Vergil writes that "This is a higher story starting, A greater work for me." (7.43) Is it also a more difficult story to tell? What makes it "gr..."
Really, reaaly good questions! Mmm.
Vergil writes that "This is a higher story starting, A greater work for me." (7.43) Is it also a more difficult story to tell? What makes it "gr..."
Really, reaaly good questions! Mmm.
Just thoughts all lumped together on Book 7. So i can catch up eventually.
Line 1+: "Nurse Caieta of Aeneas, in death you too
Conferred your fame through ages on our coast,
Still honored in your last bed, as you are,
And IF this glory matters in the end\
Your name tells of your grave in great Hesperia."
I thought, mmm, I don't know anyone today who remembers and honors the fame of this "Caieta." I wondered whether anyone in Virgil's time did. Might Virgil be saying, "Fame is fleeting." (Except, you know, he would have been saying it better because he didn't write cliches.) That honor doesn't last through the ages. Therefore, take actions that YOU think will be honorable---for yourself.
And you know I'm stuck on those "If"s. So when Virgil writes "IF this glory matters in the end," I think Virgil is saying this glory does NOT matter in the end. Who even remembers the grave in great Hesperia? Who even remembers Hesperia?
----
Line 20: Aeneas and his people pass the island of Circe. "Anger... rage... howling." Aeneas should be reminded that there is anger in this world. He should remember that he was told that it wouldn't be easy even after he reached the shores of Italy.
OK, I'm also stuck on drifting. The need for staying focused on goals. The dangers that lurk. The need of an experienced helmsman. (See the funeral games. Helmsman thrown overboard.) Aeneas just lost his experienced helmsman, Palinurus. Aeneas doesn't stay as focused as he should be. Like Thomas pointed out, Aeneas didn't go see the king himself. He probably should have. It would have done much to let the people there know that Aeneas had paid proper respect to their king..that Aeneas had good and proper motives. But he lost his helmsman, he lost his focus, and he drifted.
(And then my thoughts wandered to Mae West and her quip, "I used to be snow white (or Snow White)...but I drifted."
----
Line 50: "How matters stood in the old land of Latium
That day when the foreign soldiers beached
Upon Ausonia's shore..."
I found the use of that word, "foreign," so interesting. Virgil is writing here from the point of view of those that Aeneas will defeat. It is Aeneas who is "foreign" here, even though it is the story of Aeneas we have been following for six books. Why? Again, it's post-civil war in Rome and Roman lands. I think maybe Virgil is trying to get the Romans of his time to see that BOTH sides in a conflict tend to see events from their own point of view. Maybe he's trying to get the Romans of his time to put themselves in the shoes of "the others." And although it would be very difficult for the paritsans (yes, I'm stuck on that, too) of Virgil's time to have much sympathy for those who killed their family members during the recent civil wars...., those same people, removed by several centuries from the time of Aeneas, CAN have sympathy and understanding for "the others," and those of Virgil's time would be able to see, yes, there was anger and there was war and death...but THOSE people managed to overcome, THOSE people managed to become one people, a great people, us, the Romans. And if they can do, we can do it.
Afraid of losing this post. Will save and add more.
Line 1+: "Nurse Caieta of Aeneas, in death you too
Conferred your fame through ages on our coast,
Still honored in your last bed, as you are,
And IF this glory matters in the end\
Your name tells of your grave in great Hesperia."
I thought, mmm, I don't know anyone today who remembers and honors the fame of this "Caieta." I wondered whether anyone in Virgil's time did. Might Virgil be saying, "Fame is fleeting." (Except, you know, he would have been saying it better because he didn't write cliches.) That honor doesn't last through the ages. Therefore, take actions that YOU think will be honorable---for yourself.
And you know I'm stuck on those "If"s. So when Virgil writes "IF this glory matters in the end," I think Virgil is saying this glory does NOT matter in the end. Who even remembers the grave in great Hesperia? Who even remembers Hesperia?
----
Line 20: Aeneas and his people pass the island of Circe. "Anger... rage... howling." Aeneas should be reminded that there is anger in this world. He should remember that he was told that it wouldn't be easy even after he reached the shores of Italy.
OK, I'm also stuck on drifting. The need for staying focused on goals. The dangers that lurk. The need of an experienced helmsman. (See the funeral games. Helmsman thrown overboard.) Aeneas just lost his experienced helmsman, Palinurus. Aeneas doesn't stay as focused as he should be. Like Thomas pointed out, Aeneas didn't go see the king himself. He probably should have. It would have done much to let the people there know that Aeneas had paid proper respect to their king..that Aeneas had good and proper motives. But he lost his helmsman, he lost his focus, and he drifted.
(And then my thoughts wandered to Mae West and her quip, "I used to be snow white (or Snow White)...but I drifted."
----
Line 50: "How matters stood in the old land of Latium
That day when the foreign soldiers beached
Upon Ausonia's shore..."
I found the use of that word, "foreign," so interesting. Virgil is writing here from the point of view of those that Aeneas will defeat. It is Aeneas who is "foreign" here, even though it is the story of Aeneas we have been following for six books. Why? Again, it's post-civil war in Rome and Roman lands. I think maybe Virgil is trying to get the Romans of his time to see that BOTH sides in a conflict tend to see events from their own point of view. Maybe he's trying to get the Romans of his time to put themselves in the shoes of "the others." And although it would be very difficult for the paritsans (yes, I'm stuck on that, too) of Virgil's time to have much sympathy for those who killed their family members during the recent civil wars...., those same people, removed by several centuries from the time of Aeneas, CAN have sympathy and understanding for "the others," and those of Virgil's time would be able to see, yes, there was anger and there was war and death...but THOSE people managed to overcome, THOSE people managed to become one people, a great people, us, the Romans. And if they can do, we can do it.
Afraid of losing this post. Will save and add more.
Thomas wrote: "It's definitely not the "natural" thing to do. Do we get any sense that Latinus understands the consequences of his decision? I don't recall if we do... my impression was that he doesn't have that ..."
Ah, yes, the consequences and costs.
I don't think the old king considered the negative consequences. I think he was looking out for the self-interest of his family. "Blood so mingled
Lifts our name starward. Children of that stock
Will see all earth turned Latin at their feet,
Governed by them, as far as on his rounds
The Sun looks down on Ocean, East or West."
Or, your daughter can marry Turnus (sp?) and have a bigger herd of cattle.
And then, too, sigh, sadness...human nature...wanting to brag...look what I'm going to get:
"a warning that Latinus
Could not keep to himself, but far and wide
Report of it had reached Ausonian towns..."
IF ONLY...If only Latinus had held his tongue, talked to Turnus (sp?) man-to-man....arranged a different, high marriage for Turnus...presented the information in a way to calm and focus the people on the advantages and that this new marriage was the wish of the gods.
----
Line 231: Regarding the people there in Italy:
"They had their senate house"
There wasn't a senate house in the Iliad or the Odyssey. This might be Virgil suggesting the the senate (a revered aspect of the Rome of the Republic) came from the Italians, not from Aeneas. Suggesting to the people of his time that even defeated peoples have valuable ideas that are worth incorporating into one's own culture. Again, ??? a way to soften the feelings/ instill some mutual respect?? between the parties that have been fighting civil wars???
---
Line 338: I liked this about old king Latinus.
\
"The embroidered
Purple and the scepter of King Priam
Moved him less in his own kingliness
Than long thoughts on the marriageof his daughter"
That even though earlier, I had thought Latinus was thinking on the elevation of his family through the marriage of his daughter to Aeneas...now...he seems to have thoughtful thoughts about his daughter for herself. I can imagine him a man who loves his daughter. (He is old. He must have fathered her rather late in life. His wife must be much younger than he is. She is, perhaps, still at a more passaionate age.)
Line 345:"Called to reign here with equal authority"
That "equal" makes me think of the offer Dido had given Aeneas...to rule with her as equal.
Line 432: "Let father and son-in-law
Unite at that cost to their own! In blood,
Trojan and Latin, comes your dowry, girl"
And I think immediately of Ceasar and Pompey. Pompey, you'll probably remember, married Ceasar's daughter. Ceasar and Pompey were father and son-in-law. And until Pompey's wife died---too young----Ceasar and Pompey were on the same side. Only after she died did war break out between the two. And then...bloodshed.
Line 463. More wounds. "a thousand ways of wounding"
Ah, yes, the consequences and costs.
I don't think the old king considered the negative consequences. I think he was looking out for the self-interest of his family. "Blood so mingled
Lifts our name starward. Children of that stock
Will see all earth turned Latin at their feet,
Governed by them, as far as on his rounds
The Sun looks down on Ocean, East or West."
Or, your daughter can marry Turnus (sp?) and have a bigger herd of cattle.
And then, too, sigh, sadness...human nature...wanting to brag...look what I'm going to get:
"a warning that Latinus
Could not keep to himself, but far and wide
Report of it had reached Ausonian towns..."
IF ONLY...If only Latinus had held his tongue, talked to Turnus (sp?) man-to-man....arranged a different, high marriage for Turnus...presented the information in a way to calm and focus the people on the advantages and that this new marriage was the wish of the gods.
----
Line 231: Regarding the people there in Italy:
"They had their senate house"
There wasn't a senate house in the Iliad or the Odyssey. This might be Virgil suggesting the the senate (a revered aspect of the Rome of the Republic) came from the Italians, not from Aeneas. Suggesting to the people of his time that even defeated peoples have valuable ideas that are worth incorporating into one's own culture. Again, ??? a way to soften the feelings/ instill some mutual respect?? between the parties that have been fighting civil wars???
---
Line 338: I liked this about old king Latinus.
\
"The embroidered
Purple and the scepter of King Priam
Moved him less in his own kingliness
Than long thoughts on the marriageof his daughter"
That even though earlier, I had thought Latinus was thinking on the elevation of his family through the marriage of his daughter to Aeneas...now...he seems to have thoughtful thoughts about his daughter for herself. I can imagine him a man who loves his daughter. (He is old. He must have fathered her rather late in life. His wife must be much younger than he is. She is, perhaps, still at a more passaionate age.)
Line 345:"Called to reign here with equal authority"
That "equal" makes me think of the offer Dido had given Aeneas...to rule with her as equal.
Line 432: "Let father and son-in-law
Unite at that cost to their own! In blood,
Trojan and Latin, comes your dowry, girl"
And I think immediately of Ceasar and Pompey. Pompey, you'll probably remember, married Ceasar's daughter. Ceasar and Pompey were father and son-in-law. And until Pompey's wife died---too young----Ceasar and Pompey were on the same side. Only after she died did war break out between the two. And then...bloodshed.
Line 463. More wounds. "a thousand ways of wounding"
Thomas wrote: "Just a couple more things about Book 7 that stand out for me. There are a number of parallels with Book 1, but the main one concerns Juno. The heart of the book is about how Juno steers the Trojans..."
Yes! Wasn't Allecto marvellous (sp?)? The snakes again. "the serpent slipping between her gown and her smooth breast went writhing on..." I hate snakes. Most people do. To think of snakes slithering over my bare flesh! It makes my skin crawl. (And there is that indicator that Amata is much younger than her husband Latinus, as she has that "smooth breast.")
I just adored how Allecto was written. Must be incredible in Latin.
I liked, too, how the anger Allecto is incubating is described as "an infection"
Yes! Wasn't Allecto marvellous (sp?)? The snakes again. "the serpent slipping between her gown and her smooth breast went writhing on..." I hate snakes. Most people do. To think of snakes slithering over my bare flesh! It makes my skin crawl. (And there is that indicator that Amata is much younger than her husband Latinus, as she has that "smooth breast.")
I just adored how Allecto was written. Must be incredible in Latin.
I liked, too, how the anger Allecto is incubating is described as "an infection"
About line 580. The way the facts can be twisted!
Turnus tries to think clearly. But the twisted tale with just enough truth in it keeps hitting Turnus.. What with false dreams and lying gods, how does one ever know what's true and what's not true?
Turnus tries to think clearly. But the twisted tale with just enough truth in it keeps hitting Turnus.. What with false dreams and lying gods, how does one ever know what's true and what's not true?
What's with the deer? Do they have some symbolic meaning? Venus showed herself as a huntress. Aeneas shot the deer for his men. Dido was described as a deer who had been shot (in the heart, I think). And now this stag which Ascanius wounds and kills.
I found those next scenes heartbreaking. Almo. The eldest son. The sorrow and tragedy of losing an eldest son. Dead forever now.
And then old Galaesus---there he is, PLEADING for peace! Killed dead.
I thought it worth noting that at this point in the narrative, "Now while they fought on the wide field, with Mars impartial still..."
What? What does this mean? Is Mars going to wait to see who's winning before he decides to take sides? Or, does it mean that Virgil is saying that war is NOT sent by the gods---that it is man himself who wages war?
Allecto speaks to Juno. Allecto didn't quite start the war. "See your quarrel brought to the point of war." Mars is still impartial. Rumour has spread. Disinformation has spread. But it is man himself who lost his restraint, his control, his reason...these men didn't talk to one another... it was the people themselves who went to war. It was the people who called on Mars:
"with cries for Mars.
Nothing would do but that, against the omens,,
AGAINST THE ORACLES, by a power malign
They pled for frightful war."
And then, because I loved it so: poor Latinus:
"I am breached by fate,"
(oh, god, how I have felt at times that I have been breached by fate!)
"I am breached by fate," he says,
"Wrecked, swept away by storm."
"You'll pay the price, poor people"
(he's talking to the people who are going against him, bringing ruin to his lands, and yet he can call them "poor people."
And then Virgil pretty strongly suggest that in his own time, too, it is the people who decide to go to war: "as now/ In the world-power of Rome when citizens/ First urge the wargod on---"
That it's not Mars calling the people to war.
It's the people calling on Mars, urging war.
Virgil describes how there are "One hundred brazen bolts (to) keep the gates (of war) closed."
Judgments must be made and men's voices raised for these bolts to be opened. War doesn't just happen. Men should have the ability to keep those gates closed.
And the people clammored (sp?) for war, and called for Latinus to declare the war. "But he would not."
He turns away, shut himself up in depression, "in the interior darkness."
And then, yes, Juno makes that final push. And I think of the Bible when the plowshares are mentioned.
And then old Galaesus---there he is, PLEADING for peace! Killed dead.
I thought it worth noting that at this point in the narrative, "Now while they fought on the wide field, with Mars impartial still..."
What? What does this mean? Is Mars going to wait to see who's winning before he decides to take sides? Or, does it mean that Virgil is saying that war is NOT sent by the gods---that it is man himself who wages war?
Allecto speaks to Juno. Allecto didn't quite start the war. "See your quarrel brought to the point of war." Mars is still impartial. Rumour has spread. Disinformation has spread. But it is man himself who lost his restraint, his control, his reason...these men didn't talk to one another... it was the people themselves who went to war. It was the people who called on Mars:
"with cries for Mars.
Nothing would do but that, against the omens,,
AGAINST THE ORACLES, by a power malign
They pled for frightful war."
And then, because I loved it so: poor Latinus:
"I am breached by fate,"
(oh, god, how I have felt at times that I have been breached by fate!)
"I am breached by fate," he says,
"Wrecked, swept away by storm."
"You'll pay the price, poor people"
(he's talking to the people who are going against him, bringing ruin to his lands, and yet he can call them "poor people."
And then Virgil pretty strongly suggest that in his own time, too, it is the people who decide to go to war: "as now/ In the world-power of Rome when citizens/ First urge the wargod on---"
That it's not Mars calling the people to war.
It's the people calling on Mars, urging war.
Virgil describes how there are "One hundred brazen bolts (to) keep the gates (of war) closed."
Judgments must be made and men's voices raised for these bolts to be opened. War doesn't just happen. Men should have the ability to keep those gates closed.
And the people clammored (sp?) for war, and called for Latinus to declare the war. "But he would not."
He turns away, shut himself up in depression, "in the interior darkness."
And then, yes, Juno makes that final push. And I think of the Bible when the plowshares are mentioned.
Lausus. Another promising son to die. "unexcelled in beauty except by Turnus," a skilled young man, "horse-tamer," a young man of such promise. So many young men of such promise, riding to war at their fathers' sides. "he deserved more happiness in the father he obeyed, Deserved indeed no father like Mezentius.. And why? Because the fathers should have known better. The fathers were the ones who should have been able to look ahead to the costs. What's that old saying, "old men start wars; young men fight them." If young men are going to die, there better be good reasons for going to war.
There will be wonderful young men dead on both sides. I think Virgil is descibing here the civil wars of Rome.
In the same sort of way in which in the 70s the
Vietnam War was too fresh to be shown as a TV show...but really, that's what MASH was. It was about war...and making us think about the costs of the Vietnam War...but it was "set" in the Korean War. That's what I think Virgil does here. He's writing about the civil wars. But those are fresh and hurtful. Augustus is the emperor. But Virgil can talk about the civil wars and get people to think about the costs of war if he "sets" the war back several centuries.
And "Hippolytus' handsome son rode out to war, SENT BY HIS MOTHER" That was a oonfusing passage for me. But what I got out of it was that Hippolytus's father had been killed in a chariot. So Hippolytus KNOWS that in war one can be killed in a chariot. His own father seems to have been.
And yet...
"Even so,
Over the plain behind a fiery team
His son rode in a chariot to war."
I view this as Virgil mourning that fact that people do the same thing over and over ... even when they KNOW the results...that young men will be killed. I think it's Virgil...pleading for his Romans to try to slow down and think hard before they go to war.
And the field is full of "all those
Who plowed in time of peace..."
And I would guess that Camilla is going to die along with the promising young men and eldest sons.
And that final line with Camilla, a warrior girl.
Should women be warriors?
And Camilla is a mere girl.
Oh, the people pour out of their homes to see her, to admire her style...
And the last thing they look at is her Lyian quiver.
And her shepherd's myrtle staff
And shepherds are so peaceful.
And I found this on myrtle=bitterness:
Myrtle trees grow in the Middle East, Egypt and around the Mediterranean, so the word "myrtle" has an old origin from Greek, myrtos, a bitter, aromatic resin, and the Arabic word for bitter.
And the passage ends with "steel."
the staff, "pointed with steel."
Not quite plowshares turned into swords, but the same thing.
There will be wonderful young men dead on both sides. I think Virgil is descibing here the civil wars of Rome.
In the same sort of way in which in the 70s the
Vietnam War was too fresh to be shown as a TV show...but really, that's what MASH was. It was about war...and making us think about the costs of the Vietnam War...but it was "set" in the Korean War. That's what I think Virgil does here. He's writing about the civil wars. But those are fresh and hurtful. Augustus is the emperor. But Virgil can talk about the civil wars and get people to think about the costs of war if he "sets" the war back several centuries.
And "Hippolytus' handsome son rode out to war, SENT BY HIS MOTHER" That was a oonfusing passage for me. But what I got out of it was that Hippolytus's father had been killed in a chariot. So Hippolytus KNOWS that in war one can be killed in a chariot. His own father seems to have been.
And yet...
"Even so,
Over the plain behind a fiery team
His son rode in a chariot to war."
I view this as Virgil mourning that fact that people do the same thing over and over ... even when they KNOW the results...that young men will be killed. I think it's Virgil...pleading for his Romans to try to slow down and think hard before they go to war.
And the field is full of "all those
Who plowed in time of peace..."
And I would guess that Camilla is going to die along with the promising young men and eldest sons.
And that final line with Camilla, a warrior girl.
Should women be warriors?
And Camilla is a mere girl.
Oh, the people pour out of their homes to see her, to admire her style...
And the last thing they look at is her Lyian quiver.
And her shepherd's myrtle staff
And shepherds are so peaceful.
And I found this on myrtle=bitterness:
Myrtle trees grow in the Middle East, Egypt and around the Mediterranean, so the word "myrtle" has an old origin from Greek, myrtos, a bitter, aromatic resin, and the Arabic word for bitter.
And the passage ends with "steel."
the staff, "pointed with steel."
Not quite plowshares turned into swords, but the same thing.
Adelle wrote: "Just thoughts all lumped together on Book 7. So i can catch up eventually.Line 1+: "Nurse Caieta of Aeneas, in death you too
Conferred your fame through ages on our coast,
Still honored in you..."
I like your lumpy thoughts, Adelle!
The modern city of Gaeta (near Naples) is Caieta.
I think maybe Virgil is trying to get the Romans of his time to see that BOTH sides in a conflict tend to see events from their own point of view. Maybe he's trying to get the Romans of his time to put themselves in the shoes of "the others."
Yes. One of the ideas that repeats from time to time is that wars are fought to secure the peace. Vergil insists with this repetition that there is a purpose to all of this strife. Enemies will one day be friends, as hard as it may be to believe in the heat of battle.
Adelle wrote: "What's with the deer? Do they have some symbolic meaning? Venus showed herself as a huntress. Aeneas shot the deer for his men. Dido was described as a deer who had been shot (in the heart, ..."I'm not sure if this is on point or not, but the story of the "pet" deer reminds me of this one, Herakles' third labor:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Herakles...
Thomas wrote: "Adelle wrote: "What's with the deer? ..Thomas wrote: I'm not sure if this is on point or not, but the story of the "pet" deer reminds me of this one, Herakles' third labor."
Could be. There IS that linkage between Aeneas and Herakles...ever since...Book 1? Book 2? anyway, where Aeneas puts that lionskin on his shoulders before he puts his father on his shoulders. I know that's a reference to Hercules. And little hints have been dropping along the story.
Mmmm. Also, I think it was you who had pointed out that Hercules means something like "the glory of Hera." She put all those impossible tasks on him because she hated him. And Juno is the Roman version of Hera. And Juno hates Aeneas... and she's putting all these obstacles in his way.
And now the pet deer similarity. So yes, good point.
Could be. There IS that linkage between Aeneas and Herakles...ever since...Book 1? Book 2? anyway, where Aeneas puts that lionskin on his shoulders before he puts his father on his shoulders. I know that's a reference to Hercules. And little hints have been dropping along the story.
Mmmm. Also, I think it was you who had pointed out that Hercules means something like "the glory of Hera." She put all those impossible tasks on him because she hated him. And Juno is the Roman version of Hera. And Juno hates Aeneas... and she's putting all these obstacles in his way.
And now the pet deer similarity. So yes, good point.
Thomas wrote: "I like your lumpy thoughts, Adelle!..."
Thank you, Thomas, Book 7 was a good chapter for me. I did finish Book 8, and that Book didn't resonate with me as much. But I should be about caught up now.
(and yes, you were right about Book 8 being more explicit regarding Juno's anger towards Aeneas)
Thank you, Thomas, Book 7 was a good chapter for me. I did finish Book 8, and that Book didn't resonate with me as much. But I should be about caught up now.
(and yes, you were right about Book 8 being more explicit regarding Juno's anger towards Aeneas)
At 10 Thomas wrote: "Vergil writes that "This is a higher story starting, A greater work for me." (7.43) Is it also a more difficult story to tell? What makes it "greater" than the previous story?
..."
Hey, Thomas, I came across an article that gave what seemed to me a very acceptable explanation concerning why the second half is "the greater work."
The first half of The Aeneid is prophecy. He brings up prophecy after prophecy from the first half (yes, even the prophecy that Aeneis and his people will eat their tables)...
And the second half is the fulfillment of those prophecies (yes, even that Aeneis and his people ate their tables). Words of prophecy are empty, false, if they are never fulfilled. The fullfillment, therefore, is the greater work.
..."
Hey, Thomas, I came across an article that gave what seemed to me a very acceptable explanation concerning why the second half is "the greater work."
The first half of The Aeneid is prophecy. He brings up prophecy after prophecy from the first half (yes, even the prophecy that Aeneis and his people will eat their tables)...
And the second half is the fulfillment of those prophecies (yes, even that Aeneis and his people ate their tables). Words of prophecy are empty, false, if they are never fulfilled. The fullfillment, therefore, is the greater work.
The Trojans finally land in Italy, near the Tiber, and they know they're in the right place when Iulus notices that they are eating the spelt plates on which their food is placed. "Look at us, eating our tables!" he says, and as the Harpy Caeleno prophesied, their prolonged voyage may now be considered over.
Harking back again to Book 1, we see Juno working out her anger against Aeneas and the Trojans. She has in mind a reenactment of the destruction of Troy, and to do this she casts Aeneas as a new Paris. Juno sends the fury Allecto to incite Turnus to anger, and eventually to war with the Trojans. When Iulus shoots a stag he unknowingly lights the tinder of the conflict. Juno opens the gates of war, and the battle lines start to form.
The voyage is over, and the war begins. Welcome to the second half of the Aeneid.