On the Southern Literary Trail discussion

I couldn't get hold of the book so I am listening to my first audio book. It is quite a revelation to me. This seems like such a good book to listen to with all the descriptions and alliterations. Just to top it off, I am alternating the listening with watching the film on Netflix.

Everitt wrote: "Is the film as good as people say?"

I gave it four stars. You experience family loyalty and duress as you may have never considered before in your life.

Is the film as good as people say? It was fantastic, Everitt. Give it a chance.

The movie was incredible, so I can't wait to read the book. I usually do it the other way around.

Everitt wrote: "Is the film as good as people say?"

I didn't care for the film that much, but everyone else seemed to love it, so I'm in the minority. The dialogue seemed a little stilted and lifeless in my opinion. I'm thinking it is a difficult book to translate to film,.

I am willing to give the book a chance. Trying to locate a copy at the library.

Franky wrote: "I didn't care for the film that much...The dialogue seemed a little stilted and lifeless in my opinion."

If you are able to find the book, I will be interested to hear if you continue to hold this opinion. I was amazed how many words in the film were directly and exactly from the book.

I read Winter's Bone yesterday. I will mull it over until we have more who are ready for a discussion.

Larry wrote: "Franky wrote: "I didn't care for the film that much...The dialogue seemed a little stilted and lifeless in my opinion."

If you are able to find the book, I will be interested to hear if you contin..."

Larry, I found a copy at the library, so I'll take your advice. I think often the film is better when you read the book first and put it into context.

I saw this movie a couple years ago before I read the book. I read the book last week, then watched the movie again last night. I was amazed at how much of the dialogue in the film was word for word lifted from the book. And as far as I could tell, there was only one scene from the book that was left out. Of course, Woodrell's lyrical language cannot be conveyed in the film version, so as always, the book is better.

AHA! I was wondering who nominated Winter's Bone, went back to our October nominations and found that I have Diane to thank for the nomination and all the folks that voted for it. Thanks, Diane! I'm headed to the library this afternoon for a copy of Tomato Red.

For anyone interested, here's my no-spoiler review: http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

Mike
Lawyer Stevens

I am trying to figure out exactly why Hollywood thought they had to change the sex of one of her younger siblings. In the book she had two younger brothers, but the movie turned the youngest one into a girl. This is puzzling because so many of the scenes and so much of the dialogue was word for word the same in both. ????

Diane, maybe they had a little girl in mind that they wanted to make a 'star'. That is too bad. I thought the two boys were clearly the 'right' gender. Which boy was made into a girl? Surely not Sonny.

I was personally interested in this story because I have a niece in Little Rock, Arkansas who was a meth addict - she probably used some of the Dolly meth. My niece got out, moved away, and is now healthy, I'm told.

This is my first reading of an Ozark noir book and it is aptly classified.

I wonder if there is any way to live a healthy life for Ree and her brothers? Will she be able to keep them safe if they stay in this community?

I was kinda thinking the same thing. Sonny was left in, and the little girl did a good job with her part, but maybe someone's daughter or grand-daughter was promised a part. I hate it when they do that.

[cowboy tunes in the background] "I'm back in the saddle again..." Or at least I feel like it! Finished Winter's Bone today.

I didn't know what "crank" was, but I guess it is "meth?" That's the current easy-to-make plague down here, so I'm guessing it's the same thing. I have a few meth-related stories from my area, some humorous, in a way (you don't have to be very bright to make it), but all very, very sad in the end.

Also haven't seen the movie, yet. I tend to avoid the depressing ones in favor of high-action flicks with scantily clad male leads. Ahem. But I definitely want to watch the film version of Winter's Bone. For some reason, I thought it was set in Alaska. Shows you how much I paid attention.

I tell you something I was confused by: (view spoiler)[The whole family history with the golden fish guts thing--what? Was the original patriarch some sort of weird crazy prophet? Or did I miss something? (hide spoiler)]

And depending how long they'd been on those slopes and valleys: (view spoiler)[I also understood the "she was a Bromont;" "she was a Boshell" aspect--but it also indicated a great deal of inbreeding in the Dolly/Milton family. As did the naming patterns used to confuse the law, and the location of the Bromont land in relationship to the Dolly settlement. Mama going crazy and our heroine's "fiddles" are no surprise. (hide spoiler)]

""“Crank” is slang for a low purity, crystallized Methamphetamine that is administered in a powder form. Crank, like all other Methamphetamines, is a stimulant that acts on the central nervous system to increase heart rate and alertness of its users. Highs on the drug last between 8 and 24 hours, and often include a violent "crash" period where the user tends to be prone to aggression. The drug received the nickname “crank” because it was often smuggled in the crank cases of vehicles. ""http://www.urbandictionary.com/define...

Ch. 12
(view spoiler)[...Yes, Haslam was a "big man spinning a braggish lie that made little sense and had no conclusion." He led the 'tinkers' to Hawkfall, following a map he found on fish guts. (hide spoiler)]

Zorro wrote: (in his spoiler) regarding the word "tinkers": Does that have some significance here? It was slang for "gypsies" (not sure which flavor--Rom, Traveler, or some other) in the old days, but it could also apply to other folks who travelled and fixed things just as well, I suppose.

Jessie wrote: "Zorro wrote: (in his spoiler) regarding the word "tinkers": Does that have some significance here? It was slang for "gypsies" (not sure which flavor--Rom, Traveler, or some other) in the old days..."

Jessie, I take it to mean 'A member of any of various traditionally itinerant groups of people living especially in Scotland and Ireland; a traveler.' I have seen their trailers by the side of the road in Ireland. So I thought that these Ozark tinkers came from the Scot-Irish travelers.

Zorro wrote: "Jessie, I take it to mean 'A member of any of various traditionally itinerant groups of people living especially in Scotland and Ireland; a traveler.' I have seen their trailers by the side of the road in Ireland. So I thought that these Ozark tinkers came from the Scot-Irish travelers."

That's true, but I meant slang, specifically in the Southeastern U.S., aside from the U.K. connotations. I've often heard "old folks" (that is, folks born in the 19th century) talk about the "tinkers" that roamed the South.

There are certainly *settlements* of both Rom and Travelers in the Southern United States. (Which I didn't know until the TV told me--I thought, as groups, they were all in the North.)

Also, there are genealogical roots of much older groups in the U.S. that I've come across while researching families here. I'm wondering if Woodrell's own background, or even the background of people that he has known, has such roots.

It was a curiousity when combined with the origins of Hawkfall.

I should also mention that I always think in terms of migration patterns: Arkansas would most likely have been settled early on, not by people directly from Scotland or Ireland, but from people who made their way westward, from other states (possibly Southern states).

I am a 'she', even tho my user name is Zorro. Isabel Allende's was 3 persons. One of them was a woman! I took my name from her.

I can't find the place in the book that traces Ree's ancestry, so I can't figure how close everyone is related. Do you think that is what caused Ree's mother's craziness? And what is/are Ree's 'fiddles'?

Woodrell coined the term "country noir" to describe his work (so says Wikipedia--is it true?).

There was a TV show called "Justified" that was set in East Kentucky that seemed to fit the bill, as well, but was based on the work of Elmore Leonard (perhaps loosely?).

Also from Wikipedia:

"The 2010 FX series Justified is based around the popular Leonard character U.S. Marshal Raylan Givens from the novels Pronto and Riding the Rap and the short story 'Fire in the Hole.'"

I've never read these, but after seeing the series, I wanted to. Wikipedia also said Leonard was born in New Orleans, but the family moved frequently before settling in Detroit.

Zorro wrote: "I am a 'she', even tho my user name is Zorro. Isabel Allende's was 3 persons. One of them was a woman! I took my name from her. I can't find the place in the book that t..."

I *did* picture a "he"--very bad of me!

Regarding Ree's ancestry, it's not necessarily that it is traced in a book, but just general knowledge of cultural isolates, especially in mountain communities. They tend to be "close knit" in more ways than one. We call it, instead of a family tree, the family kudzu.

Quotes included here: (view spoiler)[ And that might contribute to Ree's mother's condition, along with the hardships that she's had to endure. Ree's "fiddles," as I search my Kindle version, are mentioned three times. It's something that only she hears: "Ree nearly fell but would not let it happen in front of the law. She heard thunder clapping between her ears and Beelzebub scratchin' a fiddle." and "She hunched over with her eyes down, rubbed her hands along Gail's calves and ankles, all the while telling of Dad and the law, Dad and the house, her and the boys and Beelzebub's fiddle." and "There was that scrape of unbidden music in her head, the beginning of a tilt, but she hushed the fiddle with a sharp thought and spread her boots for balance." (hide spoiler)]

Diane wrote: "I am trying to figure out exactly why Hollywood thought they had to change the sex of one of her younger siblings. In the book she had two younger brothers, but the movie turned the youngest one i..."

This is bothersome to me, although I haven't seen the movie. And I've had to think about it to figure out why, but I think I finally have it.

(view spoiler)[ In the book, Ree has to turn herself from a "female" character, worthy only of being reprimanded by the female elders (reference the other woman she meets who makes reference to her own stomping for poor behavior), into a pseudo-"male" character, worthy to talk with the family patriarch, to ride with her Uncle on a mission of revenge, to take on the role of head of her household and save the family land.

As part of this transition, she begins by trying to teach the boys how to take care of themselves (which, admittedly, does include cooking a rudimentary meal), to shoot, to blow their noses neatly, to skin a squirrel correctly.

If she had had a little sister, there may have been a cultural compulsion to exclude her from those activities and thus divide Ree's role into "mother" and "father" too distinctly.

In other words, with little brothers and a mother still present in the house, she was able to become the "father" figure a little more readily. Does that make sense? (hide spoiler)]

Interesting discussion.

I have Scottish ancestors who landed in North/South Carolina. My line moved to Illinois, but some of them ended up in Arkansas.

I came across this NPR article that explains Harold's sex-change. http://www.npr.org/2011/08/18/1397531...

Having seen the movie before I read the book (and I never do that! Shame on me!) I don't think it made a huge difference in the overall storyline, although I believe the Sonny/Harold differences were lost in the change.

I took Beelzebub's fiddle to mean the devil, or a bluegrass vision. I don't know if it was significant, or just a handy visual.

And speaking of visuals, damn does he write well! I was freezing in Florida the whole day yesterday - and it was in the 80s!

But why (view spoiler)[ was the mother crazy, and why did the father squeal (hide spoiler)]? Was it only to set up the plot?

Thanks to Thing Two for finding that NPR article on using a locals grand-daughter for the younger sibling, instead of the book's Harold character. Jessie, your explanation took a lot of thought and effort, but I had suspected that the film-makers just took an obvious and expedient detour that, in the end, really didn't make that big a difference to the storyline.

Thing Two wrote: "I came across this NPR article that explai..."

I love this paragraph:

"The prop department came up to me and said, 'We gotta have a burlap sack. Where in the world can we find a burlap sack?' I said, 'Oh, over at the mall in Branson they have a store, Bags 'R' Us.' 'Oh, really? Oh good! Can you give us the phone number?' I'm pulling their leg — that's what we do," Michael says with a chuckle. "Anyway, they were swallowing that hook, line and sinker. I said, 'I've got a burlap sack for you. It's OK. Calm down.'"

Diane wrote: "Thanks to Thing Two for finding that NPR article on using a locals grand-daughter for the younger sibling, instead of the book's Harold character. Jessie, your explanation took a lot of thought an..."

Well, since I haven't seen the movie, I really don't feel comfortable talking about it (which I do want to see!). But in the "universe" of the book, it's another "place." My intention wasn't to deride or defend the moviemakers, but to talk about the book itself. That's what my discussion was about. Sorry for the confusion--which, admittedly, I certainly didn't make plain!

Thing Two wrote: "...although I believe the Sonny/Harold differences were lost in the change."

Now that's an interesting point--that the little boys had different temperaments. I did note that as I was reading, but haven't thought about it since.

Thing Two wrote: "I took Beelzebub's fiddle to mean the devil, or a bluegrass vision. I don't know if it was significant, or just a handy visual."

Maybe so! And I love your description of it as "a bluegrass vision."

Thing Two wrote: "But why (view spoiler)[was the mother crazy, and why did the father squeal (hide spoiler)]? Was it only to set up the plot?..."

You ask an interesting question--and I think it can be answered by the classic hero quest: (view spoiler)[the parents must be absent for the hero (or heroine, in this case) to be able to arise. (hide spoiler)]

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero...

Jessie wrote: "Thing Two wrote: "But why [spoilers removed]? Was it only to set up the plot?..."

You ask an interesting question--and I think it can be answered by the classic hero quest: [spoilers removed]

See..."

But wouldn't it have been more interesting to have a reason? (view spoiler)[The father was going to get extra cash to pay for special treatment guaranteed to cure his wife; the wife was only pretending to be insane to guilt the father into getting a real job. (hide spoiler)] Just throwing out options.

I just accepted the situation as if I had just met the family and the reasons were not told to me. Just like it is when you meet someone in real life, you don't know all the 'whys' until you really get to know them much, much better.

I saw a comment somewhere about the movie which tried to make this a Cain and Abel story....like Teardrop killed his brother. I didn't get that from the book.

Zorro wrote: "I saw a comment somewhere about the movie which tried to make this a Cain and Abel story....like Teardrop killed his brother. I didn't get that from the book."

While I see some similarities - Teardrop was a sort of hunter and Jesup worked with the ground (stretching here!) - Cain was never remorseful for murdering Abel, and Abel was righteous. I think anytime there are two brothers people attempt to compare, but I agree with you; I don't get C&A from this book.

I've watched about half the movie--it's streaming on Netflix, and I'm sure available through other online outlets.

As I'm watching the movie, I'm seeing an almost "romanticized" version of the meth cookers appear. They look a little rough in the movie, but I didn't see any of the actors losing their teeth or with any noticeable sores; especially considering the amount of product they seemed to be using.

A few years ago, my nephew was in the trauma center at UAB. Two of the other patients there were a teenage couple who'd gotten severely burned when their meth lab exploded. The young man died, after much suffering. The woman was in a wheelchair the last I saw. I hope they took their toddler away from her, since the child was in the home with them when the explosion occured.

The last meth story I *remember* on the news was about some idiot who left their "lab" (which now means their modified 2-liter bottle) in the Wal-Mart lady's room.

The funniest story I have was when the middle-of-the-night, two-county police chase ended up with the mobile-meth-empire-in-a-pickup stuck in the old strip mine mud below my sister's house. The idiots that didn't get caught that night kept creeping out of the woods the next day. The one we still laugh about was the guy whose brother came. The brother's out there calling "Dewayne! Dewayne!" And when my family asked him if he needed any help, he said he was looking for his lost dog. Then up walked Dewayne, shoeless and covered in mud.

Just to jump in having just finished the book, I wrote up a review with some of my responses here: http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

But I find what you all are talking about rather interesting: there's definitely interesting stuff going on with gender here, and I definitely picked up a mother-father vibe in the scenes where Gail, Ree, and Ned are at the store shopping. To some degree I sensed a note of longing in Ree's desire for Gail not to cave to Floyd, though I don't think either of them necessarily recognizes it. Their relationship, though problematic, was probably the healthiest one Ree had, and it helped make her character more rounded than the hardened, independent, and fearless cliche we've seen in plenty of "tough girl" stories.

In my review and my overall first response before looking through the thread, I was especially interested in the way that the landscape and the characters were drawn in connection to each other. As a noir story, I think it's interesting to see certain tropes of film noir (shadow, black/white contrast, femme fatale, and traditionally urban settings) upended; this story is much messier, the alliances more tenuous and muddled, the web of connections tangled by inbreeding and tempers. Men and women perform different roles, but the women are not universally temptresses and can turn actively harmful; the stark snow is sullied many times by violence. It seems like one appeal of this landscape for telling these stories is to confront the messiness of the characters' world by making those contrasts with traditional expectations of a mystery. We don't even know exactly what happened by the end, and we certainly aren't carried along for the puzzle-solving ride, fed clues that help give us the sense that the final resolution confirms the rationality and predictability of the universe, as many mysteries reassuringly do. I wonder if anyone has had similar thoughts?

Thing Two wrote: "Jessie wrote: "Thing Two wrote: "But why [spoilers removed]? Was it only to set up the plot?..."

You ask an interesting question--and I think it can be answered by the classic hero quest: [spoiler..."

Jessie's reference to the hero's quest is very interesting, and I think spot-on. Maybe we could even extend the circumstance to the vacuum created by her community, absent resources beyond Ree herself, requiring her to step into a heroine's shoes?

However, I do think that the story facilitates the missing parents within its own internal logic; the mother going crazy is at least a metaphorical if not literal manifestation of the craziness of the world they live in, and she broke down when she could no longer take it; Jessup going missing is consistent with the moral universe with which we are presented: stick by your own. I guess in the end what I'm saying is I didn't think that aspect of the setup was contrived beyond suspension of disbelief.

Interesting point, Sarah, about the mother's craziness being a metaphor for the world around them. I also noticed that the women were the strong characters in this book. It was the women who beat Ree up, then saved her at the end by showing her where to find her father. Her friend finally decided to defy her husband and help Ree, along with the neighbor women who came to her rescue with drugs and advice after the beating. The men in the novel were pretty uniformly worthless losers.

Diane wrote: "Interesting point, Sarah, about the mother's craziness being a metaphor for the world around them. I also noticed that the women were the strong characters in this book. It was the women who beat..."

Yes, that's true isn't it? I'm also remembering that part when they talk about the names for the Dolly boys, designed to make tracking them difficult for the police. Ree and her mother are begging for a different name for Harold, one of the standard four being practically setting a fate for prison/crime. I found that interesting both because it seemed like the women were not only not expected to become criminals themselves, but apparently the only ones interested in preventing other boys from becoming criminals. It seemed like plenty of wives were complicit in their husbands' crimes, though, perhaps fulfilling the code of honor in that sense.

The only man who doesn't fulfill the broken man role completely is Uncle Teardrop - he comes to Ree's rescue. But he causes trouble at the beginning and may be acting more out of guilt and for his brother's honor than anything. (view spoiler)[I got the impression by the end that Teardrop had killed her father, but it was far from clear to me. (hide spoiler)]

Uncle Teardrop....(view spoiler)[."I got the impression by the end that Teardrop had killed her father, but it was far from clear to me.".. (hide spoiler)] I read this somewhere else too. What was there in the book that made you think this?

I didn't get that at all, because Teardrop said not to tell him if Ree knew who it was, because he would have to kill him. I think Teardrop helped Ree out of a sense of family, not because he admired what she was doing.

The man who paid the bond: "He never gave a name and, hell, I couldn't say for sure the man was ever even all the way awake,"

Earlier, (at location 1945, Kindle) "that droopy-eyed motherfucker Sleepy John". And at 1847 "one of the Boshell men, Sleepy John."

I think Sleepy John is the man who paid the bond. And he paid it so that Thump Milton's crew could kill Jessup. Then they probably had the women clean up the murder scene and dump the body in the pond.

Zorro wrote: "Uncle Teardrop....[spoilers removed] I read this somewhere else too. What was there in the book that made you think this?"

Diane wrote: I didn't get that at all, because Teardrop said not to tell him if Ree knew who it was, because he would have to kill him. I think Teardrop helped Ree out of a sense of family, not because he admired what she was doing.

After thinking about my reasoning and rethinking the evidence, I've changed my mind. I'll explain what I was thinking before, though, and where I changed.

(view spoiler)[At the end, Ree says "I think I know who killed Dad." to Teardrop. They hug. It's not a sad or angry moment, it's a peaceful moment. I thought this meant that despite everything, he had been put in a position where he had to kill Jessup and she understood that he tried to do what he could to make the situation as good as possible, securing cash for the bond that would go back to them; trying to keep her from the knowledge, and then helping her when it became necessary for her to know. I struggled with the instance you bring up Diane, but I considered it some kind of cover by Teardrop to conceal his own guilt. But now, my interpretation is that the hug is in remembrance of his vow, and because he realized also, observing the same evidence as Ree. They are recognizing that he is probably going to die as a result of his need to fulfill the promise to kill the man who killed Jessup. It's a moment of shared realization as well as a form of thanks and good bye.

I also thought that Jessup was involved in the death because he was so freely given access to the actors who were involved: Thump let him come and take her away from the barn, let him come to argue for her afterwards; he knew Jessup was dead at the outset and that he had snitched and etc. My interpretation now is that he was familiar enough with those people to hear the rumors, but was not personally involved in the death. (hide spoiler)]

Zorro wrote: "The man who paid the bond: "He never gave a name and, hell, I couldn't say for sure the man was ever even all the way awake,"

Earlier, (at location 1945, Kindle) "that droopy-eyed motherfucker S..."

Sorry, Zorro, I missed your post because I had my response open for a long time while eating and gchatting a friend. I agree with that, though, and realizing there was actual evidence in that last scene was what helped me change my mind as described in the above post.

Sarah wrote: "Just to jump in having just finished the book, I wrote up a review with some of my responses here: http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

But I find what you all are talking about rather i..."

Love your post here! I also notice the Ree/Gail relationship. And the noir analysis was interesting, too.

Sarah wrote: "I guess in the end what I'm saying is I didn't think that aspect of the setup was contrived beyond suspension of disbelief."

Definitely not!

Diane wrote: "Interesting point, Sarah, about the mother's craziness being a metaphor for the world around them. I also noticed that the women were the strong characters in this book. It was the women who beat..."

I agree!

Zorro wrote: "I think Sleepy John is the man who paid the bond. And he paid it so that Thump Milton's crew could kill Jessup. Then they probably had the women clean up the murder scene and dump the body in the pond."

I think you're right, and I was thinking specifically the friend he ran with (was it Arthur?).