The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of December 17, 2012 - December 23, 2012, we are reading Chapter Eight of Pursuing the Millennium
.

The eighth week's reading assignment is:

WEEK EIGHT: December 17, 2012 - December 23, 2012

8. Pursuing the Millennium (285 - 327

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on October 29th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle. This weekly thread will be opened up on or before December 17th.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Bentley will be moderating this discussion.

Welcome,

~Bentley


TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Daniel Walker Howe

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS ARE EXTREMELY DENSE SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in her research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

TOC and the Syllabus

The following is a link to the table of contents for the book and the weekly syllabus:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Book as a Whole Thread

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

by Daniel Walker Howe

This was a thoroughly fascinating chapter - there is so much packed into it.

Almost all Americans regarded their country as an example and a harbinger of popular government to the rest of the world, and even non-church-members found millennial expectations an appropriate metaphor for this destiny. (p. 285)


I was familiar with many of the names and delighted to see them mentioned, but there were numerous others I'd never come across - or at least I don't remember them. From Robert Owen through Nat Turner this chapter is a wonder of details put into a comprehensive perspective.

Howe is doing an excellent job, at least to this point in the book, of showing how all these various people and movements would lead eventually to the issue of slavery. Imo, this is certainly a book worthy of the Pulitzer (2008). There's no new research but that's not the point of the Pulitzer - the book is certainly well-written and provides a solid and comprehensive background for the lay reader.

Becky, and anyone else fascinated by the utopianism of this era, I highly recommend a trip to New Harmony, Indiana, Owen's community mentioned briefly on pages 294-95. Much of the original architecture survives, and there is an outstanding museum dedicated to the story of the TWO utopian experiments that were carried out there. The first was a religious one built by German separatists. They eventually sold the whole town to Owen and his secular utopians. The town is beautiful, and in keeping with their history, they have added some new things--a roofless church, a labrynth, a garden path filled with Paul Tillich quotes. Last time I was there (more than a decade ago) they allowed you to camp for free in the village park. There were also some very nice bed and breakfasts. I recall staying one where my room was furnished in Shaker style. It is a great weekend visit for anyone interested in learning more about both the religious and secular strands of utopianism in this era.

That sounds fascinating - I live in California but I go back east regularly - not quite that far but I could do it. Something to consider. Thanks!

I just finished this chapter and the section on Joseph Smith and the Mormons stuck out the most to me. I think it's because so much attention has been placed on the Mormons this past year as a result of the recent election. It was nice to read a little background on Smith and his Church from an entirely historical point of view that wasn't political in nature.

I have to quote a sentence that really caught my attention. "The Book of Mormon should rank among the great achievements of American literature" (page 358 ebook Nook). It never occurred to me that the Book of Mormon, or other religious books, can be approached as literature. I guess the problem is, as Howe mentioned, most people can't separate the book itself from their feelings of Joseph Smith and his story of how the book came to be.

It is a fascinating history. The Bible is taught in literature classes.

For more on on Joseph Smith:

Richard L. Bushman

This chapter continues to show the emptiness of America in that the Americans can experiment with their society by moving it west - away from the existing power bases - not possible for their european relations.

Particularly I am thinking more the the milleniumism was in the north and non-slave areas. How do you not release and improve the treatment of your slaves if you think the end is near.

And we have to keep in mind, I think, that this is still before Darwin so their religious believes and religious afterlives were much stronger.

I find Theresa's comment no. 5 really interesting amd I agree - I have a copy of the book of Mormon - liberated as I do believe was OK from a Marriott hotel I stayed at and (page 317) the "white & delightsome" phrase has been changed in the copy I have. Jewish Indians - might raise some objections by some current members of Judism but certainly the both groups have similar suffering at the hands of the Christians.

I also find it interesting that (pg 320) that the Catholic not viewing America as a new symbol of progress - that the keeping the authority in the hands of the Vatican - the Pope essentailly and denying the "local" effect of millenism has kept the Catholics less trusted. For those who are younger you may not know, or as I do remember, that John Kennedy felt the had to say that he would not obey the Pope as President, if he won.

If the Mormons had a pope-figure Obama might have won more easily.

Thanks, Vince. It is true, Catholics kept their traditions while the Protestant religions opened themselves up to their congregation like the Catholics could not. I think it hindered them in the U.S. while other religious groups flourished.

Becky wrote: "This was a thoroughly fascinating chapter - there is so much packed into it.

Almost all Americans regarded their country as an example and a harbinger of popular government to the rest of the w..."

Excellent comments Becky - thanks.

William wrote: "Becky, and anyone else fascinated by the utopianism of this era, I highly recommend a trip to New Harmony, Indiana, Owen's community mentioned briefly on pages 294-95. Much of the original archite..."

Thanks for the tip William.

Theresa wrote: "I just finished this chapter and the section on Joseph Smith and the Mormons stuck out the most to me. I think it's because so much attention has been placed on the Mormons this past year as a resu..."

Theresa I do agree with you - I had never thought about the Book of Mormon as a literary work and Howe's comment is interesting. Does anybody know what Howe's religious background happens to be?



by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Vince wrote: "This chapter continues to show the emptiness of America in that the Americans can experiment with their society by moving it west - away from the existing power bases - not possible for their europ..."

Interesting comments as always Vince - thank you.

What an interesting chapter. I am disappointed that I got behind on this read. My goal is to finish before April 22nd. There is so much in each chapter that a casual skim read will miss too much. I find myself going back through chapters and pre-reading others. By the time I am done, I will have read most of this book 3 times. Well worth the time.

Kathy, yes - this book is one of the most dense in this series and a casual read does not cut it - but I always recommend for folks to just slug through it and go back and reread as they can. I hate to see folks get bogged down and it is easy to do with such a giant of a book.

But I am delighted to see that you feel that it has been well worth your time.