Georgette Heyer Fans discussion

How is it going for you?

I almost missed the middle section here! Let's see: Bouncer is getting bouncier, and, seriously, dog lover or not, I think I'd be getting a bit tired of him. And Frances Cheviot has to be the wimpiest character ever. Heyer has been very careful to not let a glimmer of real strength or evil (with the exception of the sword stick and Bouncer-and I'm not sure he wasn't justified in that one) appear in him. Is he really as innocuous as he seems, a real hypochondriac/fop?

Read on, Karlyne!

I find Francis a very well drawn character. as always I love Nicky

I think she took great pains with Francis. But Nicky, I think, just flew off her pen!

I find Francis a bit like Randall, the "amiable snake" in Behold, Here's Poison - but more fully drawn, more complex.

I do wonder whether Nicky was based on some boy Heyer had known at some point. He is so genuine! I particularly love the interchange between him and Elinor about the secret passage -- he is so excited about it, and just knows she can't be serious about wanting to nail the door closed when there's a chance that the mysterious stranger will use it again. She's sweet to indulge him, even though she regrets it later!

I agree, Carol! When I reread this time, I found myself really admiring the way Francis is presented. I noticed that all the Sussex characters despise and dismiss him as a fribble, but the London characters (right down to Carlyon’s sister Georgy) have a certain level of respect for him. Heyer’s warnings to us not to make assumptions about people we haven’t met!

HJ wrote: "I do wonder whether Nicky was based on some boy Heyer had known at some point. He is so genuine! I particularly love the interchange between him and Elinor about the secret passage -- he is so ex..."

I think Elinor was probably a very decent governess; she seemed to understand the adolescent mind quite well.

Francis Cheviot is one of her most cleverly revealed characters. I think as others have said he is seen in different ways in different arenas. The initial meeting when he draws his sword stick is a dead give-away to illustrate the cold, accomplished, morally ambiguous person who lurks beneath. The persona he presents publicly of a hypochondriac, nervous fop is as true as the fact he is seen as a fashionable, witty parti without whom no party would be without. Heyer is definitely saying - don't judge a book by its covers!

Susan wrote: "Francis Cheviot is one of her most cleverly revealed characters. I think as others have said he is seen in different ways in different arenas. The initial meeting when he draws his sword stick is a..."

Nice analysis Susan, so true. One must always listen to the characters who say another character is to be taken seriously , as well as the ones who dismiss him/her at face value.

NB Anthony Andrews wonderful 1982 portrayal of The Scarlet Pimpernel
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084637/

Barbara wrote: "Susan wrote: "Francis Cheviot is one of her most cleverly revealed characters. I think as others have said he is seen in different ways in different arenas. The initial meeting when he draws his sw..."

I remember that production, and we also watched the old one with (I think) Merle Oberon and Leslie Howard? So much fun!

I just looked it up, and it was indeed Oberon and Howard, released in 1934.

I loved the Anthony Andrews version, I haven't seen the Oberon/Howard one, but I'd also recommend the David Niven version, The Elusive Pimpernel.

Louise Sparrow wrote: "I loved the Anthony Andrews version, I haven't seen the Oberon/Howard one, but I'd also recommend the David Niven version, The Elusive Pimpernel."

I had forgotten that one!

Anthony Andrews version is among my top favourite movies of all time. My family and I can quote entire scenes

I’m old-school; my favorite was the Oberon and Howard:

We seek him hee-ya,
We seek him they-ya;
Those Frenchies seek him everywhey-ah . . .

And the bits stolen from A Tale of Two Cities.

Abigail wrote: "I’m old-school; my favorite was the Oberon and Howard:

We seek him hee-ya,
We seek him they-ya;
Those Frenchies seek him everywhey-ah . . .
Is he in heaven or is he in hell?
That demned elusive Pimpernel!

Whenever we lose something, we tend to mutter "We seek it hee-ya..."

Here's a great quote from The Scarlet Pimpernel that pertains not only to the title character, but also to Francis Cheviot:

"Thus human beings judge of each other, superficially, casually, throwing contempt on one another, with but little reason, and no charity."

Although sometimes there is a little reason...

I also like: "We must prove to the world that we are nincompoops."

"Nincompoops" is, sadly, a highly under-used word these days.

Karlyne wrote, “‘Nincompoops’ is, sadly, a highly under-used word these days.”

But even more sadly, an overly common identity!

Oh what a lowering thought, I would be quite sunk in Nicky's good graces... I, like Cheviot, prefer cats to dogs.

We should have a Scarlet Pimpernel watching thread ;) I love the two adaptations I've seen and find it interesting that the scene at the end (in both versions) where they fake shooting him... is not actually in the book.

Going back to The Reluctant Widow, I like the fact that John is competent in his own right and not just Carlyon's younger brother. Not that there are never competent men other than the hero but younger brothers tend to all look up to them, whereas in this he depends on John's advice as well.

Abigail wrote: "Karlyne wrote, “‘Nincompoops’ is, sadly, a highly under-used word these days.”

But even more sadly, an overly common identity!"

True! I can think of quite a few examples!

The Reluctant Widow is my favorite. So remember that while I blasphemy.

I think Carlyon is drawn to be kind an ass if you consider him from the perspective of Regency sensibility.

Everything that Elinor says to him, in her rallying way, is true from the perspective a Regency female. He has treated her with impunity. And done it because in his estimation, he will gain an advantage and she will not have lost much which he considers valuable. Because he doesn't consider HER pride and view point valuable. He considers his pride valuable.

Furthermore, once he has developed feelings for her, he continues to treat her as secondary to his mission of finding the spy. In Regency times, women were beings to be protected. If you had any feeling of affection, you would not leave a woman alone with a man whom you already felt was something of a scoundrel. You would not leave her alone after she was knocked out by said scoundrel.

Its all in how you frame it. If we lived in 1810 he would NOT be a good man. But from our reference of time he seems OK because we give Elinor the same level of agency and culture expectation that we experience today. And we assume Carlyon does too.

I see what you mean Sara but I think you're doing Carlyon a disservice. It was not his responsibility to look after Elinor, she was an independent woman, living and working on her own.

I think the point is that he does respect her and believes she is capable of putting the house to rights, which is all he has asked of her. She is obviously the sort of woman he wants in his life. Cheviot isn't a danger to Elinor in most senses, he has no designs on her, or her life it was merely bad timing.

The only thing, which I thought was very regency is his decision to deal with the memorandum and spy without consulting her, it's man's business.

Yes, Louise and Sara - I kind of agree with you both. I am torn between finding Carlyon impossibly arrogant and then I think but he does at last treat Elinor as a rational being ( most of the time ) though I agree a tad careless of her physical well being . I know Francis was never a real threat to her life, but he is, and Carlyon knows it, a dangerous man .

Also, forgive me if this has been already discussed and I can't see it, do we all find the whole 'I don't want the estate so much that I'll marry a stranger to prove it' really feasible? I am more than happy to suspend disbelief, I'm good at that , but if any one can explain the scenario more credibly I'd be very grateful!

Barbara wrote: "Yes, Louise and Sara - I kind of agree with you both. I am torn between finding Carlyon impossibly arrogant and then I think but he does at last treat Elinor as a rational being ( most of the time ..."

Thank you Barbara! I think there is discussion somewhere (spoilers thread maybe), but the original motivation is what makes the book not quite a 5* read for me!

Louise Sparrow wrote: "I see what you mean Sara but I think you're doing Carlyon a disservice. It was not his responsibility to look after Elinor, she was an independent woman, living and working on her own.

I think the..."

Totally agree. Do not understand the criticisms about Carlyon's arrogance. A man of his situation in 1813 would inevitably take control and believe he was right. It goes with his class, gender, social mores etc. This goes with the territory of reading historical fiction. Jane Austen described a society that most of us would hate and disapprove of and yet we love her books.

Susan wrote: " Jane Austen described a society that most of us would hate and disapprove of and yet we love her books."

Mm hmm. And then there's Margaret Mitchell!

Karlyne wrote: "I almost missed the middle section here! Let's see: Bouncer is getting bouncier, and, seriously, dog lover or not, I think I'd be getting a bit tired of him. And Frances Cheviot has to be the wimpi..."

I was getting sick of "Bouncer" too.

The name "Bouncer" for a dog is surely the worst one I've ever seen/heard of for the name of a dog.

Nick and that dog (incl the stupid name) irritated me to no end on my first and only reading years ago.

I though Nick so childish, I wanted to see him confined in a nursery.

Carol ♔ Type, Oh Queen! ♔ wrote: "I find Francis a very well drawn character. as always I love Nicky"

Francis is the break out star for me.

I listened to audio with Cornelius Garrett as the reader. What he does with Francis is hilarious!

Francis makes it worthwhile putting up with infantile Nicky and an irritating dog with a very stupid name.

Bouncer was the name of the dog on Neighbours when I was growing up so it seems like a normal enough name to me. LOL

Well, I guess that particular name "Bouncer" is more common than I thought!

Blech!

Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "Well, I guess that particular name "Bouncer" is more common than I thought!

Blech!"

Yeah one of my uncles had a farm dog named Bounce.

I guess I'm out of the loop for dogs names!

Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: " I listened to audio with Cornelius Garrett as the reader. What he does with Francis is hilarious!

Francis makes it worthwhile putting up with infantile Nicky and an irritating dog with a very stupid name. ..."

I agree with you about the audio version of Francis.