Book Loving Kiwis discussion

hi Nadine - very interested to join in the conversation on this topic here. I guess I compare NZ Book Month - which I don't think makes a significant impact - to NZ Music month which really seems to have transformed the music industry here. I know some of the group have increased their reading of NZ titles during March but based on the title of the group I think you are all already converts? :)

The problem I have with the NZ publishing world is that so many books are published as 'great literary novels' and they aren't. Often we promote our own as being far greater in talent than they are.

Nadine's right about children's books, many are world class but ours. Our heritage and background, our illustrations and beloved. Rightly so. I think our children's fiction escaped the need to be a great literary masterpiece and so writers could be themselves.

Adult fiction has been straining to be the great NZ novel so very few Kiwi writers have a relaxed confident, this is me and I'm a Kiwi writer style. Perhaps Ronald Hugh Morrieson is one of the few who achieved a genuine NZ voice and an honest, I don't care about being a great NZ literahry writer voice.

and yet does the average kiwi hear more about our adult NZ literature than our children's literature (which too many suggest isn't 'literature' at all)?

Yes, I do think that there is a good deal of information out in print form and online about NZ fiction. The main newspapers and the Listener review/cover NZ books and interview authors. The Book Council does a lot. Most libraries puff off NZ fiction with special shelving and/or displays. Local book groups do their bit too.

Libraries are terrific. Reviews are good although space given over to reviews in some print media has declined over the years. I still wonder if we just have a natural inclination to still think 'overseas' must be best? Sort of a hangover from our colonial past.

I agree its not right that Jenny Pattrick is perenially overlooked. I believe Craig Smith 'is' paid for school visits via gold coin donations from pupils.

I think of all the 5* reviews many of our Romance writers get in the review mags and sites in the States. Our romance writers are hugely popular overseas.

I think of Lyn McConchie and her fellow, well published, SF/Fantasy/Spec fiction writers who are mostly published overseas and well known overseas.

I think of our literary writers, the few who publish with the big publishers overseas, who have a record of excellent sales in the UK and USA.

Then I think of our locally published 'literahry' writers whose books are overpraised and I generally find dull, self conscious and straining too hard to be 'NZ literature.'

Jenny Pattrick writes a good Kiwi tale. But she writes historicals which can't be considered 'literature' by the establishment!

Until the NZ literary circle/clique acknowledges that a good story, well told, is a good book then we will have this problem with NZ novels. Frankly so much of what is published I find pretentious self-consious, arty-farty rubbish.

Or is it that we Kiwis are dull bores and nothing eciting happens to us? :)

Interesting - I'm looking at the pile of books next to me, without moving any of them and I can see one Italian author, one Canadian author, three American authors, two British authors, one Indian author, two Australian authors and two Kiwi authors. Last week there would have been two more Kiwi authors.

What intrigued me during NZ Book Month, was how few bookshops displayed NZ writers more prominantly. Does this make the $5 book token a contribution to international writers, rather than an investment in NZ writers.

Lately, I have read The Forrests by Emily Perkins, which I though was spectacular, and Gifted by Patrick Evans, which I also loved. I have devoured many of the Jenny Pattrick books, particularly The Denniston Rose and Landings. I also enjoy a good laugh and so I read Sarah-Kate Lynch's books - there is a new one out this month, apparently. Janet Frame fills more than one bookshelf here at home, and Katherine Mansfield is my literary hero along with Jane Austen, George Elliot and Maurice Sendak. I enjoy Owen Marshall - sorry PDJ - and I also love Maurice Gee - I just finished rereading Live Bodies - perhaps not his best, but I did love it. Deborah Challinor is another great NZ storyteller. And that's not even beginning to talk about writers for children.
Kate de Goldi isn't just one of my favourite writers (Loved The 10pm Question and Clubs) but she is also one of my favourite book reviewers and commentators. Maurice Gee has written books I use and reuse in the classroom - Under the Mountain, The World Around the Corner. Joy Cowley and Margaret Mahy are fabulous writers that we take for granted, but I can't imagine a world without Bow Down Shadrach, A Lion in the Meadow and The Changeover. Fleur Beale and Brian Falkner with Ambushed, Lucky for Some, Superfreak and The Tomorrow Code are all books I regularly recommend.

I'm pretty sure it's tough being a writer, where ever you live, but in NZ we have the added difficulty of distance and small population.

On the Booker prize note, The Bone People is an amazing story with a strong Kiwi Voice.

Having said all of that, I decided earlier this year that I would like to read some really current New Zealand writing, so I went online to investigate the options. And, to be honest, I had some trouble finding things I would like to read, both children's literature and books for me. Not to say it's not out there, I just couldn't easily find it, or easily access it. I would love to be guided in the right direction!

Ah yes, that's where we readers should be yelling. We've been voting with our purses for years but not yelling loudly that we want a good read, i.e. enjoyment from a book. I think the Booker is on the right track!

It wasn't so long ago that the NZSA - Soc of Authors - refused to allow writers of SF/fantasy and Romance or 'Popular' fiction to be full voting members of the society.

The NZSA still clings to the idea that we must have a great NZ novel which has to be 'literature' and literary! They ignore things like reader enjoyment and the average Kiwi's reading habits.

And yes, I don't read Romance myself but as a group the Romance Writers of NZ are the most active, and successful. They are knowledgeable about what it takes to be a published writer, run mentoring groups with their successful authors taking part and run support groups for writers to help each other reach the publishing standard. Their annual weekend conference with overseas experts and writers is great. Friday is always writers' day and when I could go I always learned a great deal and I don't write romance!

Megan wrote: "Interesting - I'm looking at the pile of books next to me, without moving any of them and I can see one Italian author, one Canadian author, three American authors, two British authors, one Indian ..."

I understand that the NZ emphasis of NZ Book Month was dropped a year or two ago by the organisers/promoters/administrators of the Month. So I guess there's no requirement to display or push NZ literature. Bit of an indictment really.

Kate de Goldi reviewed my new children's book with Kim Hill in March. Was a huge buzz

Oops! I don't mean there aren't good NZ books. And I concur with most of your list, Megan.

The problem is that our writers are stifled by this demand for the great NZ novel and our so called 'literahry' tradition.

And yes, getting hold of the NZ books in the library can be tricky if you haven't got the writers' names. Some libraries do have their new NZ novels on special NZ shelves.

I think it is seriously sad that NZ Book Month isn't entirely about promotin NZ writers. Whats up with that?

Good, yell that protest out loud at the Book Council - www.bookcouncil.org.nz/ - and the old Arts Council now Creative NZ -www.creativenz.govt.nz/.

Demand that we have only NZ books in NZ Book Month and ask them to have another Book Month and call it Let's Get Reading!

And yes, I have been nagging 'em about this so another voice or two would be good.

Megan wrote: "I think it is seriously sad that NZ Book Month isn't entirely about promotin NZ writers. Whats up with that?"

Well - it's kinda hard not to feel a little insulted by the move. While the Govt. stayed strong against opposition from Radio Stations over NZ music quotas I guess they have caved to pressure from Booksellers over promoting NZ books. Any hopes of rising above our cultural cringe levels have been dashed

爱心❤ wrote: "Poor old little tiny NZ hidden at the bottom of the world is not big and important enough to be noticed... :("

I'm actually talking more about NZ recognizing its own literature.

Is it just cultural cringe?

Do we ignore our own stuff because we like reading a good story set elsewhere?

Because we're told we are so small and insignificant our writing can't be valuable enough to read?

Because we've been baffled by some of the stuff the local critics tell us is marvellous, our great kiwi novel, which turns out to be a bit ho hum and not a pleasant read?

Tall Poppy Syndrome?

I don't know but National Radio does a good job with its morning story slot and the other programmes where Kiwi writers get read and discussed.

I think a lot of it has to do with how we perceive ourselves, and how we're TOLD to perceive ourselves. For example, I remember in my highschool English class - everyone always disliked the NZLit part of the course (which is crazy to me now, because I adore Mansfield, and have huge respect for Sargeson and Frame).

I'm not sure why the reason was, but it always came across as a little bit dry and a little bit boring. They managed to make Mansfield, who was so radical for her time, and totally blunt and brazen, come across as just ... dry and underwhelming really.

But when I took some NZlit papers in uni, everything just suddenly seemed more interesting. I don't know if it was I who had changed, or the lecturers themselves, whose passion for it was so obvious and made me want to learn more.

I know school teachers are bound by a set curriculum and are told to convey certain ideas, but surely there's room to be innovative and engage the students' interests? Any thirteen year-old would be able to relate to Mansfield's feeling of restlessness and fish-out-of-water syndrome that's so evident in her journals etc.

Ah, I've rambled. But that's what I'm saying. There seems to be this distance between how things are taught, and how they should/could be taught. And that just creates this aversion to NZ lit for students, and the way we perceive our writers. This is just an example of what I observed in highschool. I don't know what the reasons are for the rest of NZ not paying attention to their own authors.

I work in a bookstore, and I wanted to set up a display with New Zealand fiction books - but our NZ section is so patchy that if I'd moved any I would have left the section empty! I suppose now I think about it, I could have used NZ non-fiction as well... Och well, too late now. The libraries all had NZ displays though, I noticed.

The sad fact is, New Zealand authors do not sell particularly well, unless they have received rave write ups in the newspaper or something. And there is also that inherent "snobbery" that many seem to be of a more literary, and therefore less pleasurable reading, bent. I keep finding myself reading the childrens and young adult NZ authors instead because they're generally more accessible. But alas, they don't sell too well either because stuff like Hunger Games and Harry Potter are more hyped up in the media.

I have done my part - of the 18 or so books I read last month, I have written staff pick shelf talkers for about five of them - predominently kids books and I told many customers that I was celebrating NZ book month by reading NZ books exclusively.

What I think is also quite sad is that authors like Paul Cleave and Nalini Singh have a bigger following overseas than in their home country.

I was also sad to note that the ONLY NZ books int he Whitcoulls top#100 are the Edmonds cookbook (which gets in every year despite being a cookbook and tehrefore technically should be excluded) and The Forrests. Which I still haven't read. So, next time they run a vote - VOTE NZ TITLES!

Btw, I highly recommend Alveridgea: The Story of Lonely Dog.

Okay, here's a kiwi author's perspective. I've previously been published as a children's author when I was much much younger, by three NZ publishers, (School journals, Shortland Pubs, and Mallinson Rendel) Some of those picture books also were sold internationally.

Stopped writing for many years to focus on teaching and web design.

Then I started again and suddenly wrote an adult novel also suited to teens. The book has received favourable responses and reviews and awards from all over the world and was chosen by the NZ Society of Authors to be shown at Frankfurt last year (when NZ was country of honour there.)It has not been published in NZ, (though it's available worldwide on Amazon.)

I am represented by an agent and would you believe he has just negotiated a contract for my novel to be translated and sold as a print book in Czechoslovakia!

The weird aspect of this to me, is that this is a marine novel set in NZ waters and I'm a kiwi through and through. Yet I cannot find a publisher here. But here is this publisher in a landlocked country on the other side of the world, prepared to take a punt on my book and pay me an advance on royalties for the rights and then go to all the trouble of translating it into 2 languages (Czech and Slovak).

To me, this is all fine since Czechoslovakia has a far greater population (market) than this one. It just seems the opposite of the path I thought my book's journey would take and might be of relevance to this discussion. I'm wondering if it will ever filter through to this country or will it only ever exist overseas. I wonder how many other kiwi authors are in this situation.

LadyDisdain wrote: "I think a lot of it has to do with how we perceive ourselves, and how we're TOLD to perceive ourselves. For example, I remember in my highschool English class - everyone always disliked the NZLit p..."

I think this is right. I remember distinctly being told at school that New Zealand had no classic authors because we were not 'old enough'. This while studying writings of classics by Shakespeare, the Brontes, Eliot etc.

If our own early writing is not recognised for this reason, then we will never have classics. It's a bit like the 1980s which saw older buildings in the country and replaced with modern glass constructions. When the mass destruction was protested against, the response was that New Zealand wasn't old enough to have heritage buildings like England. I put this in the 'one of the most stupid statements I have heard in my life' category! England only has heritage buildings because it has preserved them! Our, at the time, 140-150 year old buildings being destroyed in time would have become really old if they had also been preserved.

With literature, we are told that readers of literarhy (as p.d.r. says) works are educational, and noses were turned up at formulaic writing - look at what happened with Enid Blyton for example, and let me tell you Paul Jennings almost got the same treatment from a certain group. It was only the voice of reason in saying 'at least the children are reading' that saved him and other formula writers.

Teachers greatly promote NZ authors at primary level, but after that there is token homage paid to NZ writers for adult audiences, and most you read about have come out of the University writing courses which naturally are literarhy.

Melinda - I just read your book last month. Bit later than everyone else here, but I enjoyed it!

Nadine - the problem with the Top#100 is that the people that vote on it are often using it to select their reading material - so books that are on it previously, and good, tend to stay on it since the longer they're on, the more they're getting read. Tht doesn't work with the Forrests of course, but it was one of Joan's Pick (Joan being the Whitcoulls Book Buyer) and her stand sits at the front of the stores and attracts the passerbys - therefore more people were probably reading it than the other NZ books. Sadly The Bone People and The Vintners Luck have now both fallen off the list. Not that I liked either of them particularly. In fact, I'd be hard pressed to find an NZ novel I did like that was widely read enough to make the top#100. I should really read Deborah Challinor. Oh, and the Denniston Rose which also made the list for a while but has now gone. I liked that one.

And no, I don't work at Unity. I live in Christchurch. I work at the only store in NZ that stocks my books ^^

Tui - I just started reading the sample of your book and, although I found the first chapter a bit "out there" (in space and all), I am definitely curious to read more. So it's on my list!

Btw, I think if those $5 off coupons were only able to be used on NZ books it would just confuse and irritate the customers. But I think the media needs to push them to choose NZ books. Then again, there are less and less getting published, it seems.

Thanks Melinda!

Nadine, I have definitely gone down the self-publishing route, having self-published in both print and e-book form and because of that I had a print book to hand to submit to the NZ Society of Authors and so they selected it for the book fair and that was where the Czech publisher spotted it. Also since its been on Amazon its collected a stunning collection of appreciative reviews from all over the world, so now there are kiwi publishers beginning to just nibble a little. So it might still happen here.

More than happy Nadine. As it happens I'm booked for a couple of workshops on this very topic, both quite soon. One is for the Creative Hub Advanced Fiction course in Auckland. (I was a student in the course in 2010) and they've asked me to come back and talk about SP to the 2013 class. The other is out at the Writers and Readers festival at Raglan in May. If you scroll down this page for the Raglan event, you'll see me near the bottom:
http://www.wordcaferaglan.co.nz/progr...
So it seems the literary scene is beginning to regard me as the go-to person for this topic. I'd love to practice on my Goodreads friends and share it with them.
But it won't be until next week at the earliest as I have a flatout schedule of cycling this weekend.

I can give some advice on how to go about it, but I'd like some advice on marketing, if anyone has any good ideas.

LadyDisdain wrote: "I think a lot of it has to do with how we perceive ourselves, and how we're TOLD to perceive ourselves. For example, I remember in my highschool English class - everyone always disliked the NZLit p..."

The thing with NZ lit is that students want fresh and exciting and new - they know they need their barriers broken down and reconstructed. So I think its not so much tall poppy syndrom as we DON'T like being told how we should perceive ourselves and what writing we SHOULD like. Also the writing is often very samey, very earnest, and not pitched at teens. Blow something up, have some people die or at least cope with obvious external struggles, have some teenage angst, construct a plot - I mean, really, why was NZ literature so disdainful of plots? I can think of some greats that had them (too subtle for teens really) - but many of the literati don't. So yeah, I was a hater, am still a hater - can count the (adult) NZ mainstream authors I like on one hand (Katherine Mansfeild, Fiona Kidman, Mary McCallum, and maybe a couple of others). But childrens and teens... fantastic - so rich - and that's because we don't teach childrens, there is no great NZ style that we are supposed to carbon copy, and so the creativity there is often fresh and new. Built with four by two and gumboots - straight from the heart. :)

Oh wow! Lots of great comments.

Tui why do you want a publisher when you are doing so well? Self published means you can control your covers, the editing, the PR and take home a reasonable amount of money from each copy sold. A NZ publisher will only do a print run of 2,000 and pay you around 50 cents a copy!

Angela what do you need to know re PR? I suggest you start by looking at the blog of my colleague on Writing Magazine : http://join-rebecca.com/blog/

She does great marketing columns in 'Writing Magazine' about how to use social media and create PR and is a good example of what she preaches.

A.J.'s got it, this imaginary
'great NZ style that we are supposed to carbon copy'

I've heard it denied by the NZSA and the teachers of the Creative Writing Programmes but everyone is looking for this pattern which will produce the great NZ novel!

Self publishing is still tricky because so much is put out rather like vanity published stuff, no editing and no decent cover design. But for those who are prepared to do the hard first three years' serious PR and do have a publishable and edited book then it will work. We are quite happy with our slow but steady sales of e and print copies at Writer's Choice. We are building an image and a readership but we expect it to take three years.

And despite everything PR people say it is Word of Mouth which sells in the end. You just have to create that talk!

Nadine wrote: "Food for thought P.d.r... 50cents a copy?! Wow.

Still, there is always a certain glamour that accompanies traditional publishing isn't there (Melinda's latest blog post refers... http://melindasz..."

It wasn't glamour that seduced me :) Growing up my writing heroes were all traditionally published because that was the only real route. And they were all overseas writers (Tolkien, Le Guin, Lewis, Cooper, Rosemary Harris etc...) because NZ didn't even have much of a children's literature back then. When I began writing for publication I couldn't afford to try vanity publishing so sent my stuff off to trad publishers. And yes at that point validation was in the mix. So I still send my stuff to trad publishers and occasionally they pick it up. I have also published with small presses and self published (although only in electronic form). I liked having control when I self pubbed but I also value the infrastructure trad publishers have. Self pubbing can be a springboard (Hugh Howey, E.L.James) but only a very few spring. It's not easy, either way :)

P.d.r. states,
"Tui why do you want a publisher when you are doing so well?
The reason is that I have a zero marketing budget whereas a big commercial publisher has a much better one. I want my book to get out to as many people as possible and unfortunately we still have a vast number of readers who are negative about SP authors and will resist reading them. This situation is actually getting worse as Amazon and Smashwords are being flooded by more and more unedited and low quality SP books. The SP authors who do publish low quality books are actually making it much harder for the rest of us by turning readers off SP. Because it is so early in this new era, there are not yet the new systems of GOOD enough quality control in place to protect the bookbuying public and many of them have begun refusing to read SP. They only trust the commercial publishers where they believe they can trust the quality control.

I linked to this blog post (http://terribleminds.com/ramble/2013/...) by Chuck Wendig (watch out for the frequent cursing) about what it really means to be self-pubbed a while back on my blog. I think it raises some very good points and is helpful if you haven't yet gone this route but are considering it

Nadine, that's the attitude you have to have. Well said.

As a writing tutor I shivered, Nadine, when you said 'I couldn't afford to try vanity publishing'.
No one should ever go that route if they are serious about writing professionally. And self published is different from vanity published.

Yes, Tui, but PR is something you have to do these days with most publishers. It's often written into the contract.

As for the junk out there in e-book land. Eek!
BUT things are improving. For writers like me who have a CV of well published short stories in journals and magazines, soundzines and anthologies, we know we can write publishable work. It's nice to have those published stories collected into an anthology and self published as e and print books.

And now, we have a choice. Try the traditional route at a dicey time when publishers are trying to find best sellers and money makers, or publish ourselves in a way which gives us control and quality control.

You're correct of course, in that part of the self publishing route should always be to employ a real well qualified editor.

It's a numbers game, publishing. And a guessing game. Now we writers do have a choice and we do have to do it right. As for attitudes, well it does seem to be improving. NZ is the snobbiest as far as literary matters go and there is a great deal of NZSA/Book Council/literary events snottiness about self published books. It is slowly improving as writers find out that readers aren't literary snobs - if the story's good they'll read it.

Thank you for the link, Melinda.

I can promise you that the NZSA, (or NZ Authors as it is now called) and of which I am a proud member, has no "snobbiness" whatever about self-published authors.

They bent over backwards to take many of our Kiwi SP authors to Frankfurt last year for the big book fair. They were incredibly generous of their time in coaching and guiding and supporting those dozen or so of us who elected to travel to Frankfurt for the fair. I'll never forget what I owe the society for its treatment of us before during and after the Frankfurt experience and its partly because of them, that my SP book "Ripple," is to be translated and published in Czechoslovakia.

In fact I would go even further and say that almost everything great that has happened to me in my writing career so far, has originated in one of the weekly NZSA newsletters. My advice to authors is to join the society ASAP if you are not already a member and just get involved. You will get more out of it the more you put into it of course.

In my home Waikato branch, we have a fantastic group of people both conventionally published and self-published and as yet unpublished. We all rub along together just fine and support one another.

Tui - That's good to know! I always feel a little bit like I'm not really a proper author because I went the self publishing route - and as such am shy about attending events with "real" authors. I should look into joining this society. How much does it cost to join?

So, what's the difference between Vanity Publishing and Self Publishing then? Apart from obviously the cost invovled (PoD self-publishing means you can buy smaller quantities, Vanity you have to buy a large amount). I guess I'm curious as to why when one makes you shudder and the other is considered acceptable.

Tui - you're the second person recently to recommend the NZSA - they used to be terrible snobs - esp if you wrote children's - it's good to hear those attitudes are changing.

As for self-publishing - it's a mugs game - BUT if you're a newbie - and don't have media presence (and didn't have the foresight to marry a publisher)- then it's about your only choice. All the short stories in the world don't seem to make the slightest difference. Maybe, just maybe the big publishers will step into e-book publishing of newbies (which would put you on par with all the mid-list authors who are being culled off hard copy and given e-book status).

So, yeah, you'll have to wear a dozen hats, cough up your hard earned cash, and horde books like a crazy cat lady, because like I said, it's a mugs game -- but for those of us still at the beginning of our careers, it's about the only game in town.

I'd rather hoard books than cats! They're less messy.

All the info on NZ Authors membership (including costs for the various levels of membership)is available on their web site here:
http://www.authors.org.nz/

The difference between Vanity publishing and self publishing.
Vanity publishing is when you pay someone to publish your book for you. You give them a manuscript - it could be a brilliant novel or it could be a single word repeated 85,000 times. They will print whatever you ask them to because you pay them to do it. They do not care what you give them and they do not edit it or do any quality control whatever. They will probably tell you they think your work is wonderful but they are unlikely to have read it. I actually object to it even being called publishing. It should be called printing, because that is all they do. Just print it. The word publish means "to make public," but they do nothing to publicise or distribute your book for you. You just get a huge pile of books cluttering up your garage. They get your money.

Self-publishing on the other hand can be done for free. You can do it for NO CHARGE WHATSOEVER and I have proved this myself with Ripple. Once I got the manuscript to a publishable standard I published it as both a print book and as an e-book for free.
However, I did choose to pay out before the publishing step in getting it to a publishable standard. This money was spent on professional assessment and editing. I had it assessed after the first two drafts and edited after the third draft. You can also choose to pay for other steps that I did not pay for. You can employ a book designer to design your book. You can employ professionals to do any part of the process you are not confident to do yourself. But then at least you are in control and you know exactly where each penny you spend has gone and the total of it is still likely to be way less than you'd be asked to pay a vanity publisher.

One other word of warning is that out and out vanity publishers are easy to spot. They are the ones who seem suspiciously keen to publish your work for you. They encourage you every step of the way and flatter you a good deal as they go.

More dangerous to my mind are the ones who are not exactly vanity publishers but nor are they "good" publishers either. They're the "borderline" ones. These are more problematic because they are harder to spot. It's not until you take good look at the fine print in the contract that you realise that nearly everything in the contract favours the publisher far more than it favours the author.

I nearly got caught out by one of these. And I'll give you three guesses who saved me from making that error? You got it. The good old NZ Authors again. They check contracts for you! They looked at the contract and warned me that it was borderline and nothing to be too thrilled about. I knew I could do better myself and that was the catalyst that sent me towards the SP route.
I've just recently signed a real contract, but didn't need them to check it this time because since then I've found an agent who I trust to look after the contracts side of things.

I have to admit I'm a little gobsmacked - there are reasons a legitimate self-publisher would want to pay up front for printing in bulk - the first is quality and the second is price.

Yeah - if you have an e-book and all you need is afew back up hardcopies (and I plan to be putting one of those out this year) then it's great. But if you have a book that tickled the fancy of one of the big publishers, but they let it go after a budget drop - and the market is compact (because it's actually your home city and tourists to your home city) then it's a whole different kettle of fish.

But yes, there are alot of money traps for the new and aspiring author. My advice to absolute newbies would be to check out the local writers groups to see if any suit you, get on the good side of your independent Bookshop and pick their brains, and find a good online writing advice site and check it out. All of which is absolutely free, except maybe the bookshop thing - but you have to remember be nice to your local bookshop - after all they are the people who will support you and your fantastic new novel. :)

Joanna - I actually agree with you and I'm still not quite sure of the real distinction between Vanity and Self except that in Vanity you have to pay upfront and risk having a garage filled with books, and in Print-on-demand you can buy as required (which probably works out a little more per book but has less risk factors). Ultimately, either way your book is only as good as you make it - you can print-on-demand a book of utter nonsense (I know, I've read them) in the same way you can Vanity publish one.

The main risks as I could see it are:
You pay a large amount of money, end up with a lot of books, and never sell enough to come close to breaking even.
You pay a large amount of money, end up with a lot of books, and find a significant error and have to destroy all your books.
It also means you could support your local printshop rather than order from the USA.

I've print-on-demand published my novels, but when it comes to my picturebook, my only real option is to go vanity press because CreateSpace does not support the publishing requirements (full page colour bleed) required in a picture book. I do, however, want a solid, not stapled, spine, so that will likely cost more.

As an addition - I have been discussing this with my husband and it appears we may have conflicting opinions on what Vanity Publishing actually IS.

* I think it is taking your book into a local printshop or sending it to a printery and paying out say $5000 for 500 copies of your book, which you then get to carry home and use to line your garage while you go about marketing and selling them and trying to persuade your local bookstores to stock them.

He has just put forward that he believes it is actually paying a publishing house to print them, say 500 copies for $5000, and then they will sell them for you, until they either sell them all or decide that they're not going to sell and destroy them or sell them off at cost price. In which case they do very little marketing because it's no skin off their nose if your books don't sell.

So, which of us is right? If he is, then I can understand that it is not something that should be undertaken lightly - or at all - and is almost like a scam.

Angela wrote: "Joanna - I actually agree with you and I'm still not quite sure of the real distinction between Vanity and Self except that in Vanity you have to pay upfront and risk having a garage filled with bo..."

A vanity press or vanity publisher is a publishing house that publishes books at the author's expense. Generally in the past vanity publishers only operated on this model - so didn't also publish books using the traditional model of paying an advance and/or royalties. Most wouldn't have useful distribution to booksellers. And most booksellers wouldn't take their product. Self publishing would be doing it all yourself and these days would include POD. The bottom line is producing a quality product and these days you can pay for very good editing, design and other kinds of assistance even including distribution. The hardest part is still how you sell the book. Booksellers still resist self pubbed and vanity books, so even if you are willing to take on your own distribution you face an uphill battle. And each part of the distribution and sales chain will take a cut of the sales profit.

Ah me! The minefields of publishing.

Yes, self publishing in niche markets, where the author pays a good editor and printer to make up a book on a specialised health topic or local history or tourist trips around a specific locality, that's always been 'acceptable'. It's novels that cause the problem.

I am also glad to hear that the NZSA is getting off its snobbish backside and helping all writers. I wrote a series of articles for their website about the Sharks in publishing. The rough rule is if the agent/publisher/want you to pay then they are not legit but sharks.

Friendly advice comes via writers' website too. I've a useful list for anyone who is interested.

Just make up your mind whether you are a happy amateur writer, and have no intention of spending two or more hours a day writing, and so the local writers' group might well be fine for you. Or are you seriously wanting to write professionally, in which case you need a pro organisation and pro websites.

And yes, publishing contracts are legal documents and you'd be mad to sign any legal document without legal advice.

We've all be taught that if a book is good enough it will sell to a publisher.

Not so! And at least we writers have more publishing opportunities.

OK please note the "Joanna" who posted was me- I think something screwy happened - because sometimes I leave my account open at the gallery.

And yes - what Melinda said.

P.d.r. wrote: "We've all be taught that if a book is good enough it will sell to a publisher."

As you say, not so P.d.r. The publishers right now are very confused about the new and ever-changing state of the market. They're only looking to publish books by known best-selling authors or by someone who is bound to sell because they're famous and writing about their life.They're even dropping their own mid-list authors. You actually do have to have some sympathy for them. They can no longer afford to take risks in such a rapidly changing market.

The new world of publishing works like this as far as I can see. Imagine a huge deep pond - It's the Amazon or e-book slushpile. The modern publishers are no longer wasting time reading through their own slushpiles. Why should they when there's the big Amazon slushpile right there in front of them. So what do they do? The publishers sit around the edges of the Amazon/e-book slushpond and just wait to see who floats to the surface. Then they set the bait on the hook and fish out the ones floating the highest.

What does this mean to authors? If we want to be published by one of the big publishers, we have to do everything we can to ensure we are the one who floats to the surface. And you can't float to the surface if you don't first jump into the pond!

If we are happy to remain firmly SP, just carry on as before selling whatever you manage to sell on whatever you can rustle up of marketing budget and/or marketing skills.

But the publishers now expect a book to prove itself by floating to the surface of the pond before they're prepared to take a punt on it. Makes sense surely? Isn't that really fair enough in a way? Perhaps they're saying, "Show us your mettle in the real world of readers and reviewers and prove to us it's worth giving you a chance." This is the NEW way of how it works.

I have a friend I've got to know quite recently in the Waikato branch of the Society of Authors. She is a shining example of how all this works. She is such a shining example we have recently elected her president of our branch, where she is helping the rest of us like a beacon throwing light in this brave new world.
Her story goes:
1. Wrote a fantastic book
2. Tried to get a conventional publisher but none were prepared to give her a shot.
3. Self published on Amazon and Smashwords.
4. Sold tens of thousands of e-books and attracted dozens of favourable reviews.
5. Got an email from the editor at HarperCollins New York - no less. (It went into her junk mail and she didn't even know it was there for while.)
6. They are now about to publish her worldwide in multiple translations and put their full marketing grunt right behind her.Her life is about to change.Her name is Julie Thomas and her book is "The Keeper of Secrets." Due out in the next few weeks.

That's the brave new world of publishing folks. You can't be fished out of that HUGE DEEP old slushpond unless you first jump in and show them all how well you can swim. And you'll need to swim better than all the millions who are already there and all those new ones jumping in daily in ever-increasing droves like lemmings.

YOU HAVE TO PROVE YOURSELF FIRST IN THE NEW WORLD OF PUBLISHING!

Yes, that's an apt description, Tui. But frankly if you are making good sales with e-books and POD copies then why bother with the trad publishers. Their pay rates and treatment of writers are not good!

Your hubby's wrong, Angela. Vanity publishers do not sell your books. You do!

Most Small Press and Independent publishers ask you to do a lot of PR too.

Not surprisingly we've got a list of writers wanting to be part of Writer's Choice, writers who were mid-list and got the chop, or whose novel doesn't fit a standard publisher's genre box. We don't think we'll go trad. Why turn over so much of our hard earned PR and pool of readers to a trad publisher for peanuts.

If you float to the top of the pond then you're earning far more than the publishers will pay you!

P.d.r.
The publishers are the ones with the marketing budgets and the international translation contacts. They are the one who will take your book to the fairs and sell the foreign rights.
There are many SP authors (nearly all the best ones in fact) who are only too happy to find a trad publisher when the time comes. I was just like you - saying the same things exactly a year ago before I got into the scene and found out how it works.
We are all of us just so new to all of this and it's changing so fast, but those of us at the coalface (like Julie) are the pioneers.

BUT (and its a big but.) We can't all be like Julie. There is plenty of scope for the ones floating just out of sight of the big publishers. That's where Writer's Choice and the like, come in. They have an important place in the new world too. I'm right with you there.
There are just so many that are the non-mainstream kind of books that readers want to read but are not right for the big publishers. Nowadays we have the CHOICE to get it out to our niche markets anyway! Ain't it grand?

It's a really brave new publishing world out there isn't it?

I understand that Translation rights are not difficult to sell but you have to know how.

Knowledge is always power and apparently there are books selling in India and Spain through websites which wants books first in English and then help translate them into the appropriate language.

There's a group of translators who are offering their 'quality' services to translate for reasonable fees which then allows an author to sell via Amazon and all the usual web book stores in that language.

There's something similar in China too. Writer's Choice is tiptoeing through this minefield very cautiously collecting information. When we know what's safe we'll start.

Right now we're simply trying to publish quality fiction and looking for readers who like quality fiction.