Classics and the Western Canon discussion

The "escape artist" who wouldn't listen to Behrens returns to the sanatorium, this time to die. In the process, we return to some thoughts on death, including the observation -- is it true? -- that death matters more to the living than to the dying.

Meanwhile, we find out about Settembrini and Freemasonry. Does anybody other then me find it interesting that he should be a Freemason?

Everyman wrote: "Does anybody other then me find it interesting that he should be a Freemason? "

Settembrini as a Freemason is ok, I only wondered first when Settembrini in a previous chapter talked of society to improve the world - this sounded communist, but it was meant in the Freemason way, as became clear over the chapters.

Hint for non-German readers:

When talking on the initiation of new Freemasons, Alchemists, etc., the talk contains the following words (Lowe-Porter):
[Naphta:] “The primary symbol of alchemic transmutation was par excellence the sepulchre.”
[Hans Castorp:] “The grave?”
In German, the words "sepulchre" and "grave" are "Gruft" and "Grab".

If you combine them, you get "Grube", and this is exactly the word used in a previous chapter to describe the psycho-analysis chamber of Dr. Krokowski! What a subtle allusion! Psycho-analysis as "initiation" to a mysterious cult, as "transmutation" of the character (to what?)!

... and we still haven't heard what experiences Hans Castorp has made so far in Dr. Krokowski's psycho-analysis ...

I really liked the parts about how death matters more to the living than to the dying. I once heard the counsel that one should not worry about how to die because nature would take care of it. I loved the phrase (Mann, not a character): "...as long as we are death is not, and when death is we are not."

Julian Barnes wrote an interesting little book called Nothing to Fear which is a meditation on death. In it he is pretty scornfull about the sentiment, "X would have wanted...." His point: X doesn't care anymore. X doesn't exist anymore.

Zeke wrote: "I loved the phrase (Mann, not a character): "...as long as we are death is not, and when death is we are not.""

It's Epicurus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicurus
"When we exist death is not, and when death exists we are not."

As a Platonic thinker I dare to say: Don't be so sure ... the time could go round in cycles ... and nothing is lost in this world ...

Yes. I recall that Mann wrote, "...as a noted man said..."before the phrase. I wonder why he wasn't more specific.

Zeke wrote: "Yes. I recall that Mann wrote, "...as a noted man said..."before the phrase. I wonder why he wasn't more specific."

Because he expects the learned reader. Think of the French ... and Epicurus? Everybody knows him. E-v-e-r-y-b-o-d-y! You not? *smile* (ok, this was evil-smile!)

LOL

It's not death we fear, so much as the approach to it?

Lily wrote: "It's not death we fear, so much as the approach to it?"

I wouldn't say that fear of death is any rational thing. The fear is there, whatever death is. Reasonable thoughts on death can help to calm down the fear, only.

In case of Joachim, his education of decency and order helps, too, as it seems.

Attributions aside, it seems to me that the sanitarium is quite opposite to Epicurus's philosophy. I have only a superficial understanding of it. But from what I have read, he believed that we should maximize the good things in our lives. (Not in a hedonistic way, but by taking pleasure where we can find it.)

To me the sanitarium feels like a waiting room for death. These people don't do much of anything. All they do is eat and rest.

I think HC's ski trip was a refutation of that; an attempt to experience something real.

Without providing any spoilers, I will look at the rest of the book for further instances of HC taking the Epicurian role.

Zeke wrote: "Without providing any spoilers, I will look at the rest of the book for further instances of HC taking the Epicurian role...."

So how do you describe/define "Epicurian role"? Or perhaps it would be better to wait and see what examples you may bring to our attention and let that be the "defining" for our purposes here. I'm quite willing to do that; I just have seen Epicurus described in quite seemingly contradictory ways over the years.

I think I must wait because I don't want to do spoilers. But the discussion made me see something coming up--something very relevant to my own interests--in a different light. I am starting to like HC more.

Some may recall that I was despairing about him early in the book and dreading the hundreds of pages to come. Serendipitously, Thorwald's reference to Epicurus (even if I hadn't gotten it before) unlocked a new way to view HC for me.

However, if those more expert wish to dispute my elementary explanation as Epicurianism as grasping the good things life offers (regardless of one's circumstances) I will appreciate the schooling.

Zeke wrote: "To me the sanitarium feels like a waiting room for death. These people don't do much of anything. All they do is eat and rest."

That's a good point, and I get what you mean, but it's perhaps not totally accurate. They do go to concerts and lectures, they do go for numerous walks, several times a day in some cases, they do congregate in the evenings playing games. But they do eat and rest a lot.

But then, isn't what any nursing home is like? As we see from Joachim, returning to an outside life too soon may be a sentence of more rapid death (though Clavida is an example to the contrary).

But you're right, the main activity seems to be waiting to die. Surprisingly, perhaps, I haven't so far felt much of a degree of sadness in the place, though. HC seems quite content there, almost enjoying a long vacation with excellent food, a comfortable lifestyle, interesting companions, plenty of fresh air -- what more could one ask for?

But I'm reminded of a passage way back, in the section At the Tienappels, where HC is said to hold work in the highest esteem. "As things stood, work had to be regarded as unconditionally the most estimable thing in the world -- ultimately there was nothing one could esteem more, it was the principle by which one stood or fell, the absolute of the age, the answer, so to speak, to its own question. His respect for work was, in its way, religious and, so far as he knew, unquestioning."

But now it's been years since he's done any work, and he seems not to miss it at all. Quite a major change of attitude!

Zeke wrote: "However, if those more expert wish to dispute my elementary explanation as Epicurianism as grasping the good things life offers (regardless of one's circumstances) I will appreciate the schooling...."

That works for me. I'm not interested in going digging about that good man right now.

Everyman wrote: "Quite a major change of attitude!..."

Was HC ever believable on that point (work as the most estimable thing in the world)?

Lily wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Quite a major change of attitude!..."

Was HC ever believable on that point (work as the most estimable thing in the world)?"

Given his background, from a family of strong intellectual workers in a Northern Germanic city, I thought absolutely. For an Italian, perhaps not. But for a young German? (Is that -- well, not racist because it's not a matter of race as such, but cultural stereotyping?)

Eman@13, I take your points and appreciate your acceptance of my sentiment. As usual with a complex text, simple readings are insufficient. But the feeling one gets also matters.

A question I will leave for later so as not to create a spoiler: Yes, they go to concerts. But do they "live" through that music?

Your nursing home comment also resonated for me. My 100 year old mother in law has lived in a nursing home for several years. It frustrates the heck out of me to see how little they do to help her "live" in whatever limited way her severely diminished physical and, especially, mental abilities might allow.

Zeke wrote: "Without providing any spoilers, I will look at the rest of the book for further instances of HC taking the Epicurian role."

I am not so sure whether Mann wanted to advocate for Epicurianism, by quoting one of Epicur's teachings ... as we can see in the Snow Dream, Mann is driven by something else, which you find more in the Stoic teachings, in Christian teachings, also in Albert Schweitzer's thoughts: Having care for the fellow human being because life is not easy.

Yes, that's not Epicur, that's more Stoic! I hope I was successful in playing the Naphta-Settembrini game :-)

Hint for non-German readers:

"As Soldier and Brave" = "Als Soldat und Brav" is a quote from Goethe's Faust I, where the brother of Faust's unlucky girl-friend dies in fight with Mephistopheles trying to protect his sister - but he fails, is wounded to death and his last words are: I am dying as soldier and brave.

I was impressed by the dying scenery. Very realistic. Absolutely not pathetic. I imagine that Mann made such an experience in reality.

PS: Brave in English is not the same as "brav" in German. In German it means "good", "honest", "peaceful", in exaggeration even "naiv". Again, the Lowe-Porter translation is a flaw.

What I took note of thus far in this chapter is that when J returns to the sanatorium and is all a glee upon meeting HC, J's mother tries to temper his gaiety of which she does not understand. Such results in the other extreme emotion (i.e. sadness /despair ). J's mother did not intend this result , of course, as she was "not realizing that precisely the middle course, the gold mean, was impossible up here, and only a choice of extremes offered." Makes me wonder if indeed the sanatorium is an escape from reality filled with others complicit in the said same escape. Escape from the hardness of life on the flatlands and also the reality of their disease ...as here it is the norm to be afflicted and it is not to be taken with gloom...a collective mental protective stance against the reality of the situation (but the despair does rear its ugly head from time to time during lapses of such suppression or in those beyond denial).

The comment about Goethe's use of the phrase "good solider and brave" is helpful. I also think there is something ironic about the title "The Good Soldier."

Just as he was a "good patient," J, is a good soldier because he does what soldiers are created to do: die.

Turning to HC's reaction I wonder what he is really thinking. He's seen his grandfather and now J. in the coffin.

Zeke wrote: "The comment about Goethe's use of the phrase "good solider and brave" is helpful. I also think there is something ironic about the title "The Good Soldier."

Just as he was a "good patient," J, is..."

Makes me wonder whether Ford Maddox Ford took the title for his book "The Good Soldier" in part from Mann. TGS was set slightly before WWI also.

Everyman wrote: "Makes me wonder whether Ford Maddox Ford took the title for his book "The Good Soldier" in part from Mann. TGS was set slightly before WWI also."

Probably not, because the word "good" is missing in Thomas Mann's and Goethe's version ...

I finally completed reading this section today. I found it one of the most touching of the entire book so far. The likeability of Joachim, the dignity of his mother, the descriptions of the progression of J's illness, the final scenes of respect and sadness created a story within the larger sweep of MM. One of the anecdotes that took me by surprise was Hans tracking down Behrens to find out more about his cousin's condition and the ferocity with which Herr B turned on Hans.
pp 626-629.

I was reminded of stories I have heard from pastors and hospice care givers about working with the reticence of doctors in when and how to deliver end-of-life related information, information that presently within much of the U.S. can often legally only be delivered by doctors.

Mann's handling of the sequence of time caught me off guard and caused me to back-track in reading, given the way he opened the section with the news of Joachim (590), proceeded to his return (591ff), and on to walks and talks with N&S.

Then, we get: "It should be noted that these Masonic colloquies--held separately between the apprentice and each of his mentors--had taken place during the period before Joachim's return home to the people up here." (614) As I look back now, I'm not certain I can identify exactly where Mann shifted the narrative time sequence. But I was reminded of what I have been experiencing in more overt ways with novelists like Jennifer Egan in A Visit from the Goon Squad , a mixing up of the story-telling sequence.