The History Book Club discussion
This topic is about
Roosevelt's Centurions
PRESIDENTIAL SERIES
>
5. ROOSEVELT'S CENTURIONS - CHAPTER FIVE and Chapter SIX, (p. 96 - 130) ~ JULY 1ST - JULY 7TH; No Spoilers, Please
date
newest »
newest »
Chapter Overview and SummariesChapter 5 - Pearl Harbor, p. 96 - 123
FDR calls a meeting with his cabinet and leaders from both parties on the night of December 7. He reasserts his conviction that Europe is the priority battle front. Senator Tom Connolly of Texas slams his fist on FDR's desk demanding to know how it happened. FDR meets with Edward R. Murrow and William Donovan, and they listen as the devastating losses are described. Kathleen Harriman's birthday soiree is interrupted when news is delivered to Churchill of Pearl Harbor. He calls FDR "this certainly simplifies things. God be with you." (p 99) FDR delivers his speech before Congress and the war declaration sails through Congress. Hitler declares war against the US believing it is inevitable.
Navy Secretary Frank Knox is sent to Pearl Harbor to investigation how the attacks could have happened. A full investigation led by Supreme Court Justice Owen Roberts lays blame with Kimmel and Short. Their demand to defend themselves in a court martial is refused for fear of revealing military secrets. The Joint Congressional report laid similar blame and disputed any conspiracy theories blaming FDR. Sixty years later the Senate passed a non-binding resolution exonerating Kimmel and Short, but neither Clinton nor George W Bush signed it. Conspiracy theories persist. "Why this insistence in the face of evidence? Likely because conspiracy theories present tightly wound, suspenseful drama, while the truth is often messy, contradictory, confusing, and dull." (p. 104)
FDR was obsessed with spying and subversion. American reaction to Pearl Harbor reflected panic and suspicion. Japanese living in America were suspected. The idea of evacuation began to form despite notable detractors, including J. Edgar Hoover. Nonetheless, FDR sings executive order 9066 ordering Japanese internment. Those in Hawaii stayed put as it was impractical to move them.
Chester Nimitz takes over the Pacific Fleet. Ernest King is named commander of the US Fleet. Stark becomes commander in chief o the US Naval forces in Europe. King was elevated to four stars and with Marshall and Arnold became FDR's inner circle of military advisers.
King grew up a hard headed youth. He won an appointment to Annapolis. He married, fathered seven children, and played hard and worked his subordinates harder. He eased up on his drinking when FDR elevated him. He enjoyed the perks of power - a yacht, driver, an official residence. Despite his faults, FDR found him worthy.
Churchill sets sail for the US to visit FDR five days after Pearl Harbor. He stayed at the White House and was a guest of particular demands. He persuaded FDR to make commitments to support Britain in Europe. He was invited to speak to a joint session of Congress and received a thunderous reception to his remarks.
Marshall approaches Churchill to make a case for one unity of command in the Pacific and ends up winning over the Prime Minister. FDR and Churchill discuss freeing India from British colonial rule. After Churchill leaves Washington the Joint Chiefs and Combined Chiefs structure is formed. FDR decides he wants a map room after seeing the one Churchill set up in the White House during his stay. Captain John McCrea, FDR's latest naval aide, was put in charge of creating it.
Chapter 6 - The President and General Macarthur, p. 124 - 130
General MacArthur is called when Pearl Harbor is attacked. Earlier he had ordered a fleet of bombers to be moved from Clark Field. Only sixteen of the thirty five bombers were moved before the Japanese bombed the rest.
MacArthur's father was a Union Army Captain in the Civil War. Young Douglas earns an appointment to West Point. He graduates first in his class academically and voted most likely to succeed. His first post was the Philippines. During World War I, he organized the 42nd Infantry leading raids in Europe. He fights in the trenches and was the youngest to earn Brigadier General. He becomes superintendent at West Point and institutes reforms. He marries, gets a divorce, returns to the Philippines, and becomes Army Chief of Staff.
Persico addresses and offers a refute of the conspiracy theory that FDR allowed the Japanese attack through the experience of the esteemed journalist, Edward R. Murrow who was at the White House on December 7/8, 1941. (pg. 98) He witnessed the actions of the major players, including the President, that night and early morning and was convinced that they were not playing a part just to impress a young journalist sitting in the hallway. I had not heard of this incident before but it is pretty convincing that the White House was taken by surprise. But that "conspiracy" will continue to swirl regardless of Mr. Murrow's experience.
Jill wrote: "Persico addresses and offers a refute of the conspiracy theory that FDR allowed the Japanese attack through the experience of the esteemed journalist, Edward R. Murrow who was at the White House o..."It seemed like a very convenient coincidence, but then again FDR seemed like he was constantly entertaining and kept company with those in the arts and entertainment so an any other day it would be in keeping with his social habits. It seems odd he would still have dinner guests that night, granted.
I can maybe understand Murrow being their since he had been stationed in London throughout the Blitz and his reports were outstanding. But, it is odd that he was kept there on such a historic night when there was much more to do than entertain.
If we give FDR the benefit of the doubt, you could say he knew the historic significance of the day and Morrow was a good witness to capture what was going on at the White House. A more dim view was that FDR was being completely opportunistic and keeping him there so he could protray himself as The Commander In Chief to a torn country.
Either scenario makes sense.......that's why the "conspiracy" battle still rages.
Pearl Hrbor as the result of an FDR conspiracy seems like a long shot to me. It takes more than Murrow being present in the White House that night to be convincing. I am with the author on this one. "Why this insistence in the face of evidence? Likely because conspiracy theories present tightly wound, suspenseful drama, while the truth is often messy, contradictory, confusing, and dull." (p. 104)
In chapter 5, on page 96, the account of Pearl Harbor is very well portrayed, with the suspense of the moment and the gravity weighing on FDR's shoulders very apparent. With hindsight, we see that it was not a fatal blow, but in the midst of it, it must have been truly alarming and caused people to speculate whether we were in for a full scale invasion and possible occupation.
In chapter 5, on page 99, WC's reaction to Pearl Harbor is quite interesting. It can appear on first read that he is incredibly callous and uncaring about America's disaster. But I believe the reality is simply that he perceived well the global picture...and with America now in the conflict fully (even at great cost and calamity), he saw the inevitable. Victory was assured...the British Empire and civilization would live on.
Lewis wrote: "In chapter 5, on page 99, WC's reaction to Pearl Harbor is quite interesting. It can appear on first read that he is incredibly callous and uncaring about America's disaster. But I believe the real..."I think that's what made the relationship between Churchill and FDR so great. They were both extreme realists, understood their constituency (Churchill a little less so, here), and were masterful political beings.
This is not mentioned in the book (at least so far) but Admiral Yamamoto (one of the few people high in the Japanese military who had spent much time in the USA) had foretold that America would beat Japan, even if Pearl Harbor was a complete success. There seems to be a little confusion over exactly what Yamamoto said, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoroku_... has this from The Reluctant Admiral:
"A military man can scarcely pride himself on having 'smitten a sleeping enemy'; it is more a matter of shame, simply, for the one smitten. I would rather you made your appraisal after seeing what the enemy does, since it is certain that, angered and outraged, he will soon launch a determined counterattack.
and http://www.history.com/this-day-in-hi... says that he predicted that if the war lasted more than a year, Japan would lose.
by Hiroyuki Agawa (no photo).
Lewis wrote: "In chapter 5, on page 96, the account of Pearl Harbor is very well portrayed, with the suspense of the moment and the gravity weighing on FDR's shoulders very apparent. With hindsight, we see that ..."I agree, Lewis, it must have been a scary time, especially if you lived near the coastlines.
Then you have Hitler declaring war, thinking it was inevitable, so he might as well get in sooner than later. A true whirlwind.
"Lewis wrote: "In chapter 5, on page 96, the account of Pearl Harbor is very well portrayed, with the suspense of the moment and the gravity weighing on FDR's shoulders very apparent. Bryan wrote:I agree, Lewis, it must have been a scary time, especially if you lived near the coastlines...It had to be nerve wracking for people on the west coast, to wonder if something similar had the potential to creep it's way toward their shores. Once Hitler declares war on the US it must have been hard to fathom what was happening for a lot of people.
Good point, G. They were both pragmatists, and adept politicians.
Peter wrote: "This is not mentioned in the book (at least so far) but Admiral Yamamoto (one of the few people high in the Japanese military who had spent much time in the USA) had foretold that America would bea..."Interesting Peter. Thanks for the addition. I am sure there is a lot we have not heard about what was going on inside the Japanese military.
On page 107 Nimitz states about being chief of the Navy for the Pacific "The fleet is at the bottom of the sea." This to me is another indication of how little the Navy thought of air power. The fact that the carrier forces were still intact did not seem to matter. This single factor as was to be proven later was the savior of the Navy in that air power as today is the key to naval superiority. There are no battleship anymore just huge carriers. This short sightedness on the part of these old navy hands is well documented.
Visited Manzanar Camp in California a few years ago. The way in which these Americans were treated was shameful. Very little attention is placed upon this era in American history. It is not surprising considering the racial situation in the US at the time. The living conditions in these camps was at best deplorable. If not for the resourcefulness of these men and women they would have perished in these God forsaken places. This racial injustice being carried out while these same peoples children joined and fought gallantly for the US. Wish more time had been devoted to their treatment.
Clayton wrote: "On page 107 Nimitz states about being chief of the Navy for the Pacific "The fleet is at the bottom of the sea." This to me is another indication of how little the Navy thought of air power. The fa..."Change is hard, especially on the military.
Clayton wrote: "Visited Manzanar Camp in California a few years ago. The way in which these Americans were treated was shameful. Very little attention is placed upon this era in American history. It is not surpri..."Internment of the Japanese was horrible. For the life of me I can't imagine why FDR was willing to go along with this. The scars of this will be a permanent mark on US history. Horrible. The power of fear.
Clayton wrote: "On page 107 Nimitz states about being chief of the Navy for the Pacific "The fleet is at the bottom of the sea." This to me is another indication of how little the Navy thought of air power. The fa..."I took this to be a reflection of the fact that the Pearl Harbor fleet had been destroyed, not so much a reflection of his views on air power. There was tension between the naval and air forces, to be sure. Air power capability was still developing.
Alisa I agree to a point. What I was trying to say was that the carriers were not even considered as part of the fleet. If my memories serve correctly all of the flattops were at sea. We lost our battleships but the fleet was not destroyed. Just look at what Doolittle accomplished not long afterwards with his bombing of mainland Japan and a little later in the war with the Japanese losses at Midway. These victories paved the way for the carriers to become the fleet rather than battleships. Another thought came to mind is how little these or for that matter any carriers were used in the Atlantic. That arena was definitely reserved for the battleships and cruisers. I wonder why. I am thinking it may have had something to do with long distances in the Pacific compared to the Atlantic. Just do not know. Anyone else have any input into why this was so.
Clayton wrote: "Alisa I agree to a point. What I was trying to say was that the carriers were not even considered as part of the fleet. If my memories serve correctly all of the flattops were at sea. We lost our b..."I see what you are seeing, thanks for the clarification. You might want to pose your question about carriers in the Atlantic on the Q&A thread in addition to posting it here. Good question.
Clayton wrote: "Alisa I agree to a point. What I was trying to say was that the carriers were not even considered as part of the fleet. If my memories serve correctly all of the flattops were at sea. We lost our b..."I am not sure if I am remembering correctly, but the Atlantic arena did have escort carriers used mostly for sub chasing planes protecting the convoys. Of the full sized carriers, many were moved from the Atlantic to the Pacific because most of the Pacific war was fought between islands and the battle ground was actually the ocean. The European theater was land based, except for the convoys. Hence, fewer carriers when airfields existed in Britain.
I am curious, how do the Pearl Harbor conspiracy theorists explain the debacle of Clark Field, one day after PH?
Clayton wrote: "Visited Manzanar Camp in California a few years ago. The way in which these Americans were treated was shameful. Very little attention is placed upon this era in American history..."Author James Michener always wished to write a book on California however he was deterred because during WWII the family of his third wife, Mari Yoriko Sabusawa, was placed in a California internment camp.
Michener did write the induction to the book below.
Introduction by James Michener (no photo)
by Michi Weglyn (no photo)
Good addition Mark, thanks. Some of these stories are coming to light now, years later, of what some of the Japanese families endured.
G wrote: "I am curious, how do the Pearl Harbor conspiracy theorists explain the debacle of Clark Field, one day after PH?"It wasn't touched on in this section of the book, perhaps it will in later pages now that we are getting into MacArthur in the early part of Chapter 6. The note that the attacks there were never investigated like they were at Pearl Harbor was curious, it makes you wonder. Perhaps there would have been an investigation had some of those planes not been sent away earlier in accordance with his orders.
Jill wrote: "I can maybe understand Murrow being their since he had been stationed in London throughout the Blitz and his reports were outstanding..."Edward R. Murrow was born but a few miles from my residence in the same county of North Carolina. Other than tangled bushes and weeds, today there is a simple roadside marker noting his birthplace.
Mark wrote: "Clayton wrote: "Visited Manzanar Camp in California a few years ago. The way in which these Americans were treated was shameful. Very little attention is placed upon this era in American history......"Thank you for the book suggestion. I will put in on my to read list.
I thought the story about the map room was great. I think a place for FDR to see the big picture and the action going on fits him well.Who knew the actor, Robert Montgomery (dad of the actress who played Samantha in the Bewitched TV show), helped set it up.
Bryan wrote: "I thought the story about the map room was great. I think a place for FDR to see the big picture and the action going on fits him well."Yes, I agree there seems to be so much going on behind closed doors in the intimate map room. He certainly saw the big picture, however I wonder if FDR looked at small picture details too.
Around this same time FDR, who lacked an architectural background, drove some of the military officials crazy as he tried to alter the design of the Pentagon construction.
by
Steve Vogel
I can totally believe that, Mark. I think he was a pragmatic man who loved projects like these, so why not get involved?
Bryan wrote: "I thought the story about the map room was great. I think a place for FDR to see the big picture and the action going on fits him well.Who knew the actor, Robert Montgomery (dad of the actress w..."
Loved the story about the map room. It had an element of a kid seeing someone else's toy and wanting it too - world leader envy? It added another element of how FDR organizes his thoughts and actions. With the map room and his earlier draw on the map creating his own definition of the Atlantic west, I get the impression he is a visual thinker. It would give him the opportunity to test out scenarios on paper before making a decision. Quite interesting. If I recall, Teddy Roosevelt spread out maps on the floor to draw the boundaries of the first western US national parks. Maybe it was a family trait!
Good points, Alisa, I have not thought about it in that way.
Alisa wrote: "Loved the story about the map room. It had an element of a kid seeing someone else's toy and wanting it too - world leader envy? It added another element ..."I understand the emotion, yet I've learned that Eleanor thought there was too much fun and excitement in the map room. Strategically the room was a certain necessity; however for the Allies in combat along the front lines, fun and toys were not a part of the vocabulary.
I forgot about the Japanese bombing parts of the Philippines and we left a fair number of bombers there. Interesting bureaucratic snafu or someone taking their time to execute orders.
Bryan wrote: "I forgot about the Japanese bombing parts of the Philippines and we left a fair number of bombers there. Interesting bureaucratic snafu or someone taking their time to execute orders."I found it a little curious there were no investigations like there was with Pearl Harbor. Too much going on elsewhere in both the Pacific and in Europe? Seemed like a big failing to have messed up on executing MacArthur's orders. I'm sure he made someone pay. Yikes.
Yeah, it seem pretty serious. I asked Joe about some more details, because I'm curious.
I was always under the impression that the planes on the ground etc. related directly back to MacArthur, yes no? In any event the responsibility was his quite like the senior commanders at Pearl. At times MacArthur had a Teflon aura about him that shielded him from questionable decisions. Is this one of those events?
Jim it could well be, and that was my impression from reading this section in the book. Pearl Harbor was American soil, the Philippines more remote. The Navy was getting more attention, air power not so much, could have tainted the view of the losses of ships v. the loss of air power. MacArthur's teflon qualities porbably helped to keep an investigation at bay in this situation. The other fronts were viewed with more urgency.
I think the fact that the majority of the Pacific fleet was at Pearl also made it the more "disastrous" event. Granted, the planes on the ground in the Philippines were destroyed, and since it was under MacArthur's command, fingers should have been pointed. But I think the shock of Pearl completely overshadowed anything that happened in the Philippines and your term "teflon" qualities is a perfect description of how he dodged some serious problems.
It wasn't mentioned in the book, but I have to think that MacArthur exacted his unhappiness at the failure of having those planes moved.
You can bet he did!
The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
The Pentagon: A History (other topics)Years of Infamy: The Untold Story of America's Concentration Camps (other topics)
The Reluctant Admiral: Yamamoto and the Imperial Navy (other topics)
Roosevelt's Centurions: FDR & the Commanders He Led to Victory in World War II (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Steve Vogel (other topics)James A. Michener (other topics)
Michi Weglyn (other topics)
Hiroyuki Agawa (other topics)
Joseph E. Persico (other topics)
For the week of July 1, 2013 - July 7, 2013, we are reading Chapter FIVE and SIX of Roosevelt's Centurions: FDR & the Commanders He Led to Victory in World War II.
This week's reading assignment is:
Week Five - July 1st - July 7th -> Chapter FIVE and Chapter SIX, p. 96 - 130
FIVE - Pearl Harbor and SIX - The President and General Macarthur
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
This book is being kicked off on May 28th (the day the book is released officially). We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle. Make sure to pre-order now if you haven't already. This weekly thread will be opened up on July 1st. We offer a special thank you to Random House for their generosity.
There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.
Alisa will be leading this discussion.
Welcome,
~ Alisa
TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL
REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.
Notes:
It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.
Citations:
If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.
If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...
Glossary
Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.
(Part One) http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...
(Part Two) http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
Bibliography
There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in her research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
Q&A with Joseph
Please as you are reading post questions to the author's Q&A thread because Joseph Persico will be looking in periodically and will be posting answers to your questions and will be available for a chat. We are very fortunate that he is making time to spend with us.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...