The Thomas Mann Group discussion

Week 6: September 16 - 22. Read from “Walpurgis Night” p. 382 until the beginning of Chapter 6 “The City of God an Evil Deliverance” (Von Gottesstaat und von übler Erlösung) p. 458.

I am watching, a few steps behind, the filmed version from 1981 and produced by Franz Seitz, and at the very beginning there is a scene in which HC, as a child, is in school and is fascinated by the pencil that another schoolboy is holding... (in the book, later, Hippe)

I could not understand what that scene was doing in the film. Now, with this week's section, I understand the significance of the pencil.

Really? I can understand recognizing the pencil scene as having come from the book, but I really don't "get" the significance of the pencil. What do you see as its significance?

Well...Freud once said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." But in this case the pencil is not a pencil; it's a phallic symbol.

Jason wrote: "Really? I can understand recognizing the pencil scene as having come from the book, but I really don't "get" the significance of the pencil. What do you see as its significance?"

I do not know yet how the film deals with the pencil and Mme Chauchat. As I said, I am watching the filmed version after the reading, hoping there will not be spoilers (and this one was not really a spoiler but certainly a forewarning..).

What struck me about the pencil borrowing scene at school placed at the beginning of the film is that I had not encountered it yet in the text, and so I could not understand its relevance. Visually there was a lot of emphasis on the pencil and on the other boy. The scene appears then in the Hippe section later on in the novel. So, the issue was not just recognizing in the film what was present in the book (that pertains to most of the film, really). In this case it was the other way around. I was reading later in the text what had been singled out in the film.

The Walpurgis Night offers a very similar scene to that in the schoolyard. Before with Hippe and now with Mme Chauchat we encounter similar questions “Do you have a pencil?” (to Chauchat) or “could you lend me a pencil?”) to Hippe. Both times there is a silver case. And then we have HC thinking there was a time long ago, when I was still a schoolboy, that I asked you for a pencil, just so I could meet you at last, because I loved you with an irrational love, and no doubt what Behrens found in my body are the lingering traces of my age-old love for you, proof that I was sick back then.

The pencil-lending then seems another element in Thomas Mann’s iconography, like the teeth. Sexuality? Homosexuality perhaps?

Just finished reading Krowkowski's first lecture (that Hans attends after his disastrous walk). Sickness is a form of repressed love? Weird, weird, and weirder.

Elizabeth wrote: "Just finished reading Krowkowski's first lecture (that Hans attends after his disastrous walk). Sickness is a form of repressed love? Weird, weird, and weirder."

Eros & Thanatos...

Kalliope wrote: "...and no doubt what Behrens found in my body are the lingering traces of my age-old love for you, proof that I was sick back then...."

One of my questions/confusions on this sentence was whether Mann, via his character Hans Castorp, was characterizing Hans's attraction for Hippe as "sickness"? I was also uncertain as to what translation was doing to meaning/implications.

Lily wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "...and no doubt what Behrens found in my body are the lingering traces of my age-old love for you, proof that I was sick back then...."

One of my questions/confusions on this sent..."

I took it in more general terms, following Krowkowski's ideas as Elizabeth has quoted above... I can check the original later on.

But the film certainly gives homosexual tones to the scene in the school... I think in the text they are more subtle, more ambiguous.

Kalliope wrote: "I d..."

To remember also that both Hippe and Chauchat have high cheekbones and slanted Kirghiz eyes. The exotic.

I haven't reached this part yet but definitely wondered about the sexual component in the schoolboy memory and the comparison of that boy to Clavde Chaudcat.

Kalliope wrote: "Lily wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "...and no doubt what Behrens found in my body are the lingering traces of my age-old love for you, proof that I was sick back then...."

One of my questions/confusions..."

I keep coming back to Mann's statements that MM was intended as a parody of Death in Venice.

Lily wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Lily wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "...and no doubt what Behrens found in my body are the lingering traces of my age-old love for you, proof that I was sick back then...."

One of my que..."

I understand that originally it was going to be a short story, based on his visit to his wife when she was in the Sanatorium. Then he abandoned it during the war and took it up later on and worked on it for several more years..

Was the parody intended during the first stage of its composition?

Kalliope wrote: "Was the parody intended during the first stage of its composition?..."

My understanding is definitely, YES. The following is from the "Afterword," as printed in the Lowe-Porter translation and based on a speech at Princeton, "On the Making of MM." I am going to put in spoiler format for anyone who did not want to read the "Afterword" until they had read the novel, but I really do not consider this excerpt to contain spoilers, albeit not everyone considers spoilers as leniently as I do: (view spoiler)[

"THE idea of making a story out of my Davos impressions and experiences occurred to me very soon. After finishing the novel Royal Highness I wrote the long short story Death in Venice. This I had nearly finished when I went to Davos; and I now conceived the idea of The Magic Mountain (from the very first the tale bore that title). It was meant as a humorous companion-piece to Death in Venice and was to be about the same length: a sort of satire on the tragedy just finished. The atmosphere was to be that strange mixture of death and lightheadedness I had found at Davos. Death in Venice portrays the fascination of the death idea, the triumph of drunken disorder over the forces of a life consecrated to rule and discipline. In The Magic Mountain the same theme was to be humorously treated. There was to be a simple-minded hero, in conflict between bourgeois decorum and macabre adventure. The end of the story was not decided, but it would come as I wrote. It seemed an easy and amusing thing to do, and would not take much time. When I got back to Tölz and Munich I set to work on the first chapters." (hide spoiler)]

I have now reached in the German TV film the Pencil scene during Walpurgis night...

Canstorp goes bezerk around the party asking for a pencil until suddenly a vision of Hippe stops him... this Hippe turns into Mme Chauchat who then tells him that she will check in her bag. She then pulls out a pencil case and presses it coyly as a red pencil gradually emerges...

In the last paragraph of the last chapter of this section, "Someone Else", after the conversation with Naphta and Settembrini, Joachim made the statement, "I'm telling you, it doesn't matter what sort of opinions a man has, but whether he's a decent fellow. The best thing is to have no opinions at all and just do your duty.". Given that Joachim was an aspiring military officer, I found that a chilling remark given what happened years later in Nazi Germany.

Diane wrote: "In the last paragraph of the last chapter of this section, "Someone Else", after the conversation with Naphta and Settembrini, Joachim made the statement, "I'm telling you, it doesn't matter what s..."

Yes, that is right, but that concern really applies to all military actions (and we may have a new one next week).

From what I know, Thomas Mann changed his political views during WWI. This novel was begun before the war, put aside, and taken up again when peace was restored. Meanwhile TM had written "Reflections of an Unpolitical Man", which I have not read, but which I understand reflects how WWI affected his opinions, becoming more critical of Nationalisms (getting closer to those of his brother).

I am welcoming the arrival of spring in this novel with all its flowers...

Diane: " to have no opinions at all and just do your duty.". That was a major defense of the Nazi murderers at the Nuremburg trials: "I was just following orders." They actually thought that was a valid defense.

I related the pencil scene with Mme Chauchat both as a reaffirmation of Hans' tendencies for platonic adoration and as a hint of bisexuality, rather than homosexuality. Conversely, I also see evidence of homoeroticism in his intense relationship with Mr. Settembrini, which I could easily relate to Rupert Birkin and Gerald Crich's in D.H. Lawrence's novel "Woman in Love", where the division between intense friendship and sexual attraction becomes blurred. There seems to be some sort of invisible rivalry between Settembrini and Mme.Chauchat to capture Hans' attention, which becomes really obvious during the Carnival Party, resulting in Settembrini falling out with Hans for weeks.
I also found the fact that Hans exchanges the shavings of Hippe's pencil for a radiography of Mme Chauchat as her keepsake remarkable (and creepy!).

Kalliope wrote: "Diane wrote: "In the last paragraph of the last chapter of this section, "Someone Else", after the conversation with Naphta and Settembrini, Joachim made the statement, "I'm telling you, it doesn't..."

Thanks for that reflection Kalliope, it sheds some light into the phylosophical and political crossfire between Naphta and Settembrini in the last chapter for this week. Settembrini's passionate and idealistic rationalism has found the perfect counterbalance in this fastidious new character, which I can't help but dislike in spite of some of his good points about the conflict between exultant Nationalism and abhorrence of war. There is much ponder in this single chapter...

I don't like Settembrini, and I don't like Naptha even more. Who do I like? Well, I like young Hans, and Joachim, and (for some reason) Behrens.

Dolors wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Diane wrote: "In the last paragraph of the last chapter of this section, "Someone Else", after the conversation with Naphta and Settembrini, Joachim made the statement, "I'm tellin..."

I want to read the dialogue between these two again...

Kalliope wrote: "I want to read the dialogue between these two again."

Not me.

Jason: why not?

Because the Settembrini–Naphta dialogues are some of the most boring exchanges I've ever read. I think they're awful and the only reason I don't skim through them is that I'm Type A and that's "cheating."

:)

I thought they were boring, too, but I also think that they are an important dialogue that we should pay attention to.

I tried, but the investment to understand finally out-weighed the return I was getting. Even though other resources helped, I got too bogged down in arguments that seemed to belong to the politics of Germany in the 1920's at a level of questionable interest to a non-specialist like myself. Maybe another reading after some different insights elsewhere. (It didn't seem to help that reportedly Mann himself drastically changed the character of Naphta from Protestant minister to Jewish Jesuit as he rewrote and revised.)

They are competing for Hans' soul...as it were.

Kalliope wrote: "Dolors wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Diane wrote: "In the last paragraph of the last chapter of this section, "Someone Else", after the conversation with Naphta and Settembrini, Joachim made the stateme..."

My favorite scenes in the novel have been the scenes between HC and Settembrini, I LOVE their conversations. Just imagine my excietement when we were introduced to Naphta and got another view added to the mix.

The argument between Naphta and Settembrini referenced Pan-Germanism. I have not come across that term before and went to Wikipedia to look it up. Does anyone have any material they could point me to if I wanted to better understand Pan-Germanism? Thanks.

Kalliope wrote: "I am welcoming the arrival of spring in this novel with all its flowers..." Yes, but how interesting that it takes so long to arrive. I know nothing about the climate in this part of the world, but the very late arrival of Spring is noted by TM: there are signs of it (e.g. the snowdrops) and then winter is back with a vengeance, and then it doesn't actually arrive till May. My question is, why? Assuming that making an issue of its late arrival is deliberate and not just TM padding out the story LOL - what is the point? Is there some mythical significance to do with the seasons?

Elizabeth wrote: "They are competing for Hans' soul...as it were."
Yes, and Joachim is starting to feel excluded. He feels betrayed when Hans starts going for analysis, and he doesn't want to take part in these conversations while Hans is excited by them. Joachim's sole purpose in being at the sanatorium is to get well but Hans is on an intellectual journey now.
How will the loyal companion deal with this? I predict that even though he's seriously ill, his discontents will make him leave, like Settembrini has left the sanatorium and so has Chauchat, but I think Joachim will leave altogether because his duty is calling him.

Here it is October 20 and I just finished Walpurgisnacht, so the end of volume 1. I think the division between volume 1 and volume 2 is important. I remember Fasching in Germany as a time when inhibitions were briefly abandoned. The description in MM is too too wonderful.. The discourses on painting atavistic eyes, and the research on biology and flesh, lead up to visiting the dying followed by Fasching...and pencils...and the most shocking thing: Hans addresses Settimbrini with DU... Ouch...Now I need to catch up with the rest of you in volume 2....

Volume two (Chapter 6) begins with another meditation on time. "Was ist die Zeit?" The current Harvard Magazine has an interesting article on teaching students to appreciate time, and how necessary it is to real understanding. The author Jennifer Roberts asks her students to go to a museum and look at a single painting for three hours: "I think that if we want to teach history responsibly, we need to give students an opportunity to understand the formative values of time and delay. The teaching of history has long been understood as teaching students to imagine other times; now, it also requires that they understand different temporalities. So time is not just a negative space, a passive intermission to be overcome. It is a productive or formative force in itself." In the prolog Mann warns us that his story will take time to unfold and you cannot rush it....I find this comforting since it is taking me so long to read read this novel...