Sword & Sorcery: "An earthier sort of fantasy" discussion

Thematic topic for Nov-Dec is "Obscure." Go find, discuss, and review obscure Sword & Sorcery. What is "obscure" is up to you. This is the perfect excuse to hit that used bookstore and try something old & odd.

Here is a challenge, find something that members here have not heard of!

Will do!

Over in the Poll section deciding this topic, Jason encouraged me to find an obscure seuqel. I have several sequels I hope qualify as obscure (two spawned from previous group reads...all need to get out of my to-read pile):

The Compleat Khash: Volume Two: Sorcery In Shad
The Quest for Cush: Imaro II
Dawn
Sekenre: The Book of the Sorcerer
The Power Of The Serpent

... ... ... ...

So which one is the most appropriate?

The Power of the Serpent sounds interesting...

I'll probably go for The Bull Chief, book 2 in the Berserker trilogy by Chris Carlsen.

Well, I just happen to be finishing Shadow of the Wolf, book 1 of the Berserker series,so I might as well keep rolling with The Bull Chief. The first book was pretty good, and I have high hopes for book 2!

Those Peter Valentine Timlett have been sitting on my shelf unread for, um, 30 years plus or minus? Have you read the first? If so, what did you think?

All four of the other ones you listed I've read & enjoyed, although in some cases it was a looooong time ago ...

Joseph wrote: "Those Peter Valentine Timlett have been sitting on my shelf unread for, um, 30 years plus or minus? Have you read the first?..."

Joseph, you are well read. I need to catch up.

My completist-OCD behavior motivated me to get Timlett's Seedbearer trilogy about a decade ago (only read part of the first one). My memory is terrible, so I can't remember the initial spark that led me to track them down. I seem to recall a connection with Wagner's REH pastiche Bran Mak Morn: Legion From The Shadows (one of my all time favorites)... since I was hunting down dark fantasy with celtic/Lovecraft-mythos tones.

It is probably the most obscure on my list to try. Suppose I should finally tackle it.

I'm going to keep reading Kothar's, if I can stand them (I read one recently on an airplane flight), or perhaps the even more obscure Kyrik series, all by Gardner Fox.

Or it might be time to finally try out the Cormac Mac Art pastiches by Offut and Taylor. I've heard really good things about them, and they've been on my shelf for at least a decade.

I'm just starting Stealer of Flesh for the Obscure Books group read. I read Guardian of the Dawn some time ago and enjoyed it, but I'm otherwise unfamiliar with William King's work.

I just finished the third Kothar book a few days ago... and I don't think I can read any more of these in a row. Ye Gods, but they're brainless. I'm reading something with some lyricism and characters and then I'll try some more obscure s & s.

Howard wrote: "I just finished the third Kothar book a few days ago... and I don't think I can read any more of these in a row. Ye Gods, but they're brainless. I'm reading something with some lyricism and charact..."

Howard, thanks for relaying your Kothar experiences. Be assured that your time spent reading them has not been completely wasteful, since you have at least saved my brain from trying them out (until I desire shallow entertainment anyway).

Howard wrote: "I just finished the third Kothar book a few days ago... and I don't think I can read any more of these in a row. Ye Gods, but they're brainless. I'm reading something with some lyricism and charact..."

Yes, there most definitely are limits.

There are flashes -- moments -- that really work nicely. And the most recent one (KOTHAR AND THE DEMON QUEEN) actually had a plot that didn't feel like Fox was making it up as he went.

Still, I don't think Kothar can be read at protracted length. I don't know about you, but every Halloween I want a few pieces of candy corn. Not a huge helping of them, or, God help me, an entire bag, just a few pieces. I could see reading the other two Kothar books. Just not right away. I read the first many years ago and I can't recall much about it, and my guess is that my memory of these last two will fade in a few years as well.

Ha, ha, yeah, that was sort of my experience with them. I think the comparison to "too sweet candy" is apt. It's SO sword & sorcery of its era and cheesy, and that can be fun and enjoyable. But they're by no means good books or even competent storytelling. I will say that they are brisk though. If you wanted a buffet-style offering of sword & sorcery cliches and conceits, they are on display here! I think reading them sparingly is the best way to handle them. Did you get to Kyrik yet?

Kyrik is going to have to wait a little longer. I don't think I can take any more cheese fantasy for a bit, esp. from Fox. How do the two compare?

I'm reading Tanith Lee's DEATH'S MASTER right now, and then probably I'll finally read the fourth Imaro Novel, though I might finish the obscure EXILE'S QUEST by "Richard Meade" (the late, great western writer Ben Haas) first. It's only a little longer than the Gardner Fox books. So far it's cheesy but far better constructed, as I would expect from Haas.

Howard wrote: "I'm reading Tanith Lee's DEATH'S MASTER right now..."

Lee's Flat Earth books are really something special.

I still need to finish the last story in Imaro and then start up Kane for our group read. I didn't get to Kyrik yet, but I'm excited for it. I've also been reading through Lord Dunsany on my Kindle when I get the chance. I finished up the Second Book of Swords in Saberhagen Swords series, and contrasting that to the Kothar I was reading, I was like, "Damn, this is an actually story and a novel. What was I reading before?" :P

I never read those Saberhagen Swords books. What are they like?

I love them. I love magic swords with strange powers. The setting is basically, these Greek/Roman decide have a competition/play a game of some kind with each other. They are going to mess with humanity by making these 10 magic swords with different powers. The story is about how various characters get their hands on these swords, or try to, and what happens once they do.

The first book has some typical fantasy tropes, young heroes meeting and thrust into the heroic. The backdrop is political maneuvering and war. The second book starts off as the aftermath of book one, where is everyone now, and then becomes a heist/dungeon crawl book.

In my experience, Saberhagen's writing is very simple and accessible. There's no unpronounceable names or complicated societies. It's not so much gritty as realistic? Maybe to the point of being mundane, but that makes it sound boring which it isn't. It's just no frills. It's real people in a real world with fantastic situations. There's some magic, but it's rare and for the most part out of the hands of the protagonists. It's technically a post-apocalyptic setting, but that only rarely comes up.

It's definitely a plot driven story. The joy comes from the things that happen more so than who they happen to as the characters are pretty one-dimensional. Who needs character when you have cool swords? :P

I am reading The Seedbearers, book one of Peter Valentine Timlett's trilogy.

Several cultures are presented that mirror various global societies, not unlike REH’s approach or even Warhammer's take...but ostensibly historically based. The domineering, Mayan-like Toltecs lead a fragile coalition, head quartered on an Atlantis-like island (Ruta). Chapter one is over the top, presenting all cultures as sexist in some way; in fact, misogyny appears intricate to the plot.

The nicer cultures may treat woman okay, but still like to sacrifice virgins. Another rapes and murders them. Another eats them on occasion. In the first chapter alone there is (1) a beheading of a young girl… the subsequent eating of her corpse, (2) the a rape of one girl by >4 dozen soldiers, (3) a traditional sacrifice of young girl strapped to an altar, and (4) a slave girl whoring to maintain her life.

Timmlett seemed to be represent no culture in a positive light, but given our previous Groupread… it was most jarring for me to go from Saunder’s Imaro…in which a wondrous blend of fantasy warfare was mixed respectfully with African history…to Timmlets presentation of the “enslaved, black Rmoahal” who are ruthless cannibals led by Voodoo priests.

Still reading...

Just finished The Bull Chief, by Chris Carlsen. This is the 2nd book of the trilogy, and it was pretty good. Takes place in Arthur's time, fighting the Saxon invaders. Gritty, dark and bloody fun. Not quite as frantic and over the top as Shadow of the Wolf, and overall a better read. Next is The Horned Warrior, with our hero re-incarnated as a Celtic warrior in Roman Britain. I will wait a bit before starting the last book, as they read quite fast, and I want the trilogy to go on just a little longer-good stuff indeed!

My review of recent sword & sorcery ebook The Stealer of Flesh by William King:

The first book in the Kormak Saga, Stealer of Flesh consists of four linked sword & sorcery novellas. While there is currently quite a glut of low-cost self-published fantasy ebooks, I was quite pleasantly surprised by the quality of this work.

The story focuses on the adventures of Kormak--a Guardian equipped with a dwarf-forged sword and monastic martial training--and his efforts to track down and destroy a demonic body-stealing Ghul. While Serious Guy Slays Monsters is well-trodden fantasy ground, I appreciated the execution. Setting details and other exposition aren't presented to the reader in big info dumps, but rather handed out a tidbit at a time. Not much is disclosed about either the Guardians or their Ghul enemies, but what is disclosed is interesting. And while at first glance Kormak himself could come across as a grim two-dimensional character, King fleshes him out in a subtle and interesting manner. Despite his heroic drive, there are a number of instances where Kormak questions his own motives and whether or not his quest has a point at all. And despite his apparent monk-like dedication to his cause, it doesn't take too much pushing for him to dally with women he'd be best off avoiding. There's more to both the world and the protagonist than what's revealed at first glance.

I also enjoyed the linked novella format. Compared to other fantasy subgenres, sword & sorcery lends itself extremely well to shorter formats. King doesn't draw things out to fill out page count; he sets up an interesting premise and immediately gets down to business. My only complaint is (view spoiler)[that the Ghul Razhak's repeated escapes in the first three novellas gave off a vaguely comical He-Man cartoon vibe (hide spoiler)], but the concluding story was extremely satisfying, even if the ending was a little abrupt.

I'm not as familiar with the current sword & sorcery authors as I am with the classic ones, but King strikes me as a writer to watch. I look forward to reading more Kormak tales.

Phil wrote: "My review of recent sword & sorcery ebook The Stealer of Flesh by William King:

The first book in the Kormak Saga, Stealer of Flesh consists of four linked sword & sorcery novellas. While there is..."

I've read a fair bit of King -- he got his start doing Warhammer tie-in fiction (Gotrek & Felix: The First Omnibus et al.) and has also self-published a number of his own eBooks. I particularly enjoyed Sky Pirates, which read like a Warhammer/Barsoom mash-up. Fun stuff.

I haven't read much tie-in fiction since overdosing on Dragonlance books as a kid, but with more than one author writing sword & sorcery style Warhammer and Pathfinder novels I may have to do some poking around.

Just finished The Seedbearers. In short, it was like A Game of Thrones on the Titanic.

This was pitched to Sword & Sorcery fans, but the magic is limited to telepathic and psychic elements. There are several instances in which the astral realm is explored, and the story flirts with ghosts & invisible demons (more of this would have been welcomed). The closest thing to a magic-item is the “Instrument of Mating” (a ritualistic wooden phallus…seriously).

Cripes, I actually wrote "Many tits are exposed, and all are gilded in gold" in my review: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Was going through boxes and found this

I have this one and book 3.

Anyone ever here of:Ebon Roses, Jewelled Skulls by James W. Hjort?


It is pitched as Clark Ashton Smith adventure. Seems obscure with potential.

W. Paul Ganley: Publisher/Bookseller has them for sale:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EBON-ROSES-JE...

This review comes from Sweet Despise:

"...a wonderfully presented small press collection of stories by James William Hjort. Ebon Roses, Jewelled Skulls is collection of exotic fantasy stories that are heavily influenced by Clark Ashton Smith, with a nod to Lovecraft along the way. Hjort is also an artist and the stories are illustrated with his often excellent drawings and paintings which have an enriching affect on the stories. The opening tale is Dragonride, a story about a man who takes on a Wizard's challenge in order to regain someone he has lost. The story has a twist in its tale, that ends in quite a satisfying conclusion, that shows Hjort has some of Smith's sense of irony but less of his cruelty. Following this is Cthulhu's Gold a story about a thief whose arrogance leads him to rob a strange cult, though of course an fate tinged with irony awaits him. Many of the tales have this same sense of irony, though perhaps too often the sting is lessened by Hjort's desire to neatly wrap up a story with a happy ending. Though sometimes, as with the final story The Orb of Xom-Orthon he allows the sense of darkness to remain. The prose is over poetic and filled with imagery, though it doesn't fall in the trap of trying to mimic Smith's style for Hjort definitely has a style of his own. There are ten stories in all with very few lacklustre tales, most are as finely wrought as the art that accompanies them. Other highlights in the collection are the stories Dust of the Necromancer, Andalous and the Chimera and The Ebon Harp. The best of these is probably Dust of the Necromancer, a story about an outcast sorceror whose aid is required against an evil tyrant."

Thats a new one to me.

New one to me also, but I did own a bunch of the Ganley editions of Lumley's Titus Crow and Dreamlands books. If you read it I'll be curious to hear what you think.

I'm halfway through a good ephemeral read: THE DRUID STONE, by house-name "Simon Majors" (as in "Simon Magus," get it?) Pretty sure it's Gardner Fox beneath the pseudonym. It's a little like Howard's "Valley of the Worm," except that Fox's modern-day guy shunts into the body of a guy in a fantasy-otherworld rather than archaic Earth-history. The barbarian in question has the second worst name in S&S fiction, but only because he sounds like a dishwater detergent: "Kalgorrn."

Still a little better than "Cham Helleyes" from Jakes' LAST MAGICIANS, though.

Just finished The Bull Chief by Chris Carlsen (pseudonym for Robert Holdstock). As dark, gritty, violent and sexual as its predecessor Shadow Of The Wolf, but more evenly written and, as S. wagenaar mentioned previously, reined in just a touch--and to good effect. I enjoyed this one, and I think you can really see Holdstock's love/knowledge of Arthurian myth, and myth in general, coming through.

Be warned, the sex is both consensual and not, and while it doesn't revel in rape, it is certainly in evidence. And while Arthur is a character in this novel, this is not the chivalrous world of an Arthurian romance; it is a brutal and dark place. The only things more so, perhaps, are the people who populate it.

Not for some, but I certainly enjoyed it and am looking forward to reading the last one, The Horned Warrior, soon.

Jason wrote: "Just finished The Bull Chief by Chris Carlsen (pseudonym for Robert Holdstock). As dark, gritty, violent and sexual as its predecessor [book:Shadow Of The Wolf|4471563..."

There really good from what I remember, read them nearly 20 years ago.

Yes, so far I'm finding them very entertaining, and I'm interested to see where the story ends up. One thing I enjoy about them is the mythic quality at times: rocks that talk, giants that live beneath bogs, that sort of thing. The tales don't attempt to explain it away, and the narrative and characters take it all very, very seriously. They've been good fun thus far.

Somewhere around this group, someone mentioned that the Berserker trilogy may soon be released in electronic format. I would certainly welcome that, as they can be a bit hard to find these days.

Finished The Horned Warrior a while ago, and it was good. I loved the whole 'Celts vs Roman Empire' setting, and there was plenty of blood spilled in the name of entertainment! I won't say too much about it, but I felt it was a little wimpy on the finale. I am interested in what you think, and will watch for your review.