Science Fiction Aficionados discussion

Hello and welcome to December's installment of ye olde Vorkosigan Saga group read.

this is the tenth book that we're reading in this series, which is sort of amazing to me. such a high quality series.

Mirror Dance features the continuing adventures of the clone Mark. and Miles too! It won the Hugo for Best Novel and the Locus Award for Best Science Fiction Novel as well.

I am in.

This one starts off fast. What has Mark gotten himself into this time?

Banner wrote: "This one starts off fast. What has Mark gotten himself into this time?"

I have no idea what Mark gotten himself into?
Went from Felix the Cat to a Chain smoking Frog :)

Oh Wait... Was that about the clone mark?

Don't you just want to strangle him? (Mark the clone - although Kermit smoking is pretty creepy.)

it's not creepy, it's a relaxing stress reducer! don't judge poor Kermit!

Kermit looks pretty relaxed...it's the monkey that looks stressed.

I'd be stressed too with all of those bears around. poor monkey! bad, angry bears. clone bears at that.

Ha ha clone bears I believe

OK, back to the book! For me this was the darkest and most complex of the series so far. It is downright grizzly in places. Good to have Cordelia back in a major way. This is more Mark's book than Miles's. I wonder if Mark can keep his selves under control - as Mark notes, Miles only has 2 - manic and depressive - while he has four. But can't tell you more this early into the month!!

Around fifteen years ago when this book was written, cloning for body parts was an interesting concept. I remember a TED show last year where they are trying to 3D print living body parts for future human transplants. So after watching that TED episode I see the premise about cloning for body parts as non likely. 3D printers is a game changer in technology, food replicators and such are becoming a reality. Perhaps "Blade Runner" is the future and not cloning?

http://www.ted.com/talks/anthony_atal...

I am on chapter three and slowly chugging along.

I'm about 1/3 in. I'm glad to see that Cordelia is going to play a bigger part in this story. She is always present in the back of Miles thinking.

Mickey wrote: "Around fifteen years ago when this book was written, cloning for body parts was an interesting concept. I remember a TED show last year where they are trying to 3D print living body parts for futur..."

I do think we will see more artificial body parts than cloned ones in the near future. One of the impacts of being at war for so long has been some amazing improvements in artificial limbs. Must say I have not heard much in the recent past about artificial hearts. Might still be a market for cloned hearts!

Linda wrote: "Mickey wrote: "Around fifteen years ago when this book was written, cloning for body parts was an interesting concept. I remember a TED show last year where they are trying to 3D print living body ..."

That TED episode had an artificial biological heart in devolpement. I do hope they move faster. In about 30 more years I will probably want a new heart, kidneys and more. I am also hoping for a DNA transplant somewhere between Albert Einstein and Arnold Schwarzenegger, brains and brawn. But friends say I read to much science fiction... Waaay tooo much science fiction :)

I am really getting into the set-up of this one. I see now that Bujold is fleshing things out a bit by having Mark take a more active role, and getting to know Cordelia and Aral....I dont think this will be one of those series where the same story gets told over and over again :)

(I was beginning to worry that might be the case, with Miles Dendari antics)

I liked getting to see Cordelia and Aral from a new pov best about this book.

I'm only about 1/3 of the way through - I am missing seeing more of Miles, so I was glad to read the above comments. They give me some hope and perspective =).

I like the comparison to real life you guys made with the cloned body parts. Very interesting!

I am also about one third the way through.

Like all Bujold books, they flow fairly easy. But this one seems to read like a manuscript for a movie. Where most books would have so many scenes that it would not possibly fit in a two hour movie. I think this book could have every scene described so far that it could fit within 40 minutes, a third way though.

Like many movies there tends to be curtain drawing or an extra long blackout about a third way in many films or shows. It almost always has the curtain opening with the last character to be introduced. In this case it is the Countess Vorkosigan - Lady Cordelia.

In this book the "Gadget" is Miles frozen in a medical stasis unit that everyone is after. The story line with the underlying lives of many clones. What happens next... Keep on reading... The tension is building :)

Just finished earlier today and I do believe this one is the best written, so far. I enjoyed some of the other books just as much, but in this one I see a passion for the characters that I haven't yet felt. Darker than I expected.

Banner wrote: "Just finished earlier today and I do believe this one is the best written, so far. I enjoyed some of the other books just as much, but in this one I see a passion for the characters that I haven't ..."

I agree, Banner. I finished this morning, and I love how the events of this novel kind of opened up the scope for future possibles.
Will definitely be interesting!

Yes, I love how the series keeps building and growing, never going over the same ground twice. (Although I wouldn't mind at all if Bujold felt like going back and tucking in an additional adventure or two.)

I am only half way through this book and I wonder about the storyline. If the they make Mark Mark and not pretend to be Miles, then the others will know that the clone is not in the medical bag and know it is miles. The plot thickens.

The Holidays, the snowy cold weather (the shoveling), the christmas decorating, the shopping and soon cooking for Christmas is taking much of my time. Ohhh those cookies and hot coco means back to the gym in January :)

I am like Mark the clone getting fat and round in just three weeks!

Except that most people think there are three now! (Miles and 2 clones) because of that reporters story in Brothers at Arms

Maggie wrote: "Except that most people think there are three now! (Miles and 2 clones) because of that reporters story in Brothers at Arms"

Ahhh, "So I see the the blind man".

The Vors must all be narcissistic. If I had a clone I would beat the crap out of him, because I do not even like myself. Also the Vor government and society sounds like it is modeled from the U.S. government and society :)

I know, I know I needed more sleep last night :)

I will also add, what I find "interesting" that makes this book an excellent book is that it does create a new "idea" here:

If clones did exist and will be someday, the author does create a set of rules that would incorporate them into a society. With parents and relatives and who are responsible for the clones.

But then narcisstic people think they are better than other and would have a slave state. Do I see a conflict here with the Vor society? Or is it the Betan influence here?

Hmm...I'd guess it is the Betan influence. Without Cordelia, clones and "mutants" would have an entirely different status on Barrayar.

I wonder if I will live to see a time when humans are cloned. It is certainly in the realm of scientific possibility (as far as I understand). But wow the moral and legal implications are huge!

Suzanne wrote: "Hmm...I'd guess it is the Betan influence. Without Cordelia, clones and "mutants" would have an entirely different status on Barrayar.

I wonder if I will live to see a time when humans are clon..."

There is also the "Other" moral implications. Modifying the clones for other purposes. Like the female clone in the Mark's room where Mark made advances towards the clone. Modifying individuals that are sexually enhanced with over powering pheromones, nymphs that desire sex all the time, endowed individuals for the human trade markets.

Then I wish I was well endowed... All things to please women... Wait... I got that backwards... I will take the well endowed woman, but then she would not want me :(

Sigh... I do read too much science fiction :)

Mirror Dance was great but Memory really moves the Miles story along -- time to get the thread for Memory open! I was able to read it on a very long travel day on Christmas, ending in Madrid on Dec. 26, and am eager to weight in!

Oh I'm glad (but not surprised) to hear Memory is good. I just downloaded it yesterday.

The holidays took much of my time and hoping to finish off the book by Sunday and quickly move on to the next book in this series. I am about 75% through and this book is ok.

I often wonder if the appeal of this series is more about a frog becoming a prince. OR is it a story about a rich kid making to the top because of mega rich parents that would otherwise would never make it real life regardless of having disabilities.

Again I do find the concept giving clones some human rights to live by instead of body parts for the mega rich interesting.

I often wonder if the appeal of this series is more about a frog becoming a prince.

agree. not the books featuring Cordelia, of course. but that's present in many of the Miles books.

So far Mirror Dance is blah book, I give it 3 out of 5.. One star for an easy read, good world build and excellent character builds. The story line just does not appeal enough for me.

Mark, tries twice to save people and fails. Miles thought out plans always wins. Mark was responsible for Miles demise. Mark should have gone to prison for impersonating an officer and causing deaths.

However, rich parents saves Mark and propels him into the world of riches and powerful leaders. Where the not so rich ship's captain get all the blame and shame.

I think this is called "Afluensia" these days, probably spelled wrong since it is a new word :)

A story line that leaves me, who is far from rich, not very apealing. This book may resonate with the mega rich right wing kids that have mega rich parents :)

I did think about that too Mickey-that Belle really got the bad end of things. I also agreed that once she realized she was dealing with Mark rather than Miles she should have stopped the whole scheme...so I dont know...lol
It actually bothers me more they keep calling her IT....seems strange to me.

Just finished, finally. Probably for me the best in the series so far. I liked the more character centric storyline with a greater emphasis on the interpersonal relationships. Some good moral/ethical questions floated about without seeming preachy while keeping the action and problem solving romping along at the usual pace.

Almost cried out loud with cringing distaste when Mark was hitting on the poor pneumatically enhanced girl clone, my slowly building sympathy for him was almost totally destroyed. Took most of the rest of the book for me to relate to and finally even like him.
That said I did find Mark to be a thoroughly interesting character, very enjoyable to read with him as the prime protagonist. Hope to see him again, and his interplay with the other main characters, in later stories.

As for Bel Thorne I can understand why he had to lose her command, she had responsibilities and a line of command he was duty bound to follow. Mark on the other hand was just being Mark, making a desperate attempt to do something for himself. I don't think he broke any sovereign laws by impersonating a made up persona, and he didn't at first see his return to Barrayar as any sort of kindness at all, rather the worst punishment he could imagine.
Calling Bel 'It' does seem strange, but we are talking practically alien cultures to us here so I'm willing to go with It on the understanding that It is a culturally acceptable norm and just let the uncomfortableness of it remind me of the different world we are in here.

Mickey wrote: "I often wonder if the appeal of this series is more about a frog becoming a prince. OR is it a story about a rich kid making to the top because of mega rich parents that would otherwise would never make it real life regardless of having disabilities...."

But, but, but, he created the Admiral all on his own - with the help of some pretty sketchy loans. I would say it is more about a kid, that everyone else assumes has nothing more to him than his father's name, constantly feeling compelled to prove otherwise.

Alexa wrote: "But, but, but, he created the Admiral all on his own - with the help of some pretty sketchy loans. I would say it is more about a kid, that everyone else assumes has nothing more to him than his father's name, constantly feeling compelled to prove otherwise."

A frog - "has nothing more to him than his father's name".
A Prince - "created the Admiral all on his own".

All this talk about "affluenza" and Miles/Mark really doesn't apply, especially as you read on. Miles, especially, would like for his so-called "riches" to help him out, but that use usually backfires. Yes, he has connections, but it is to "those" Vorkosigans, as you will see.

The author is exploring an Old World society suddenly confronted by a universe that is, literally, light years ahead of it in all aspects. Rather than a nouveau riche family that the term "affluenza" seems to imply, the Vorkosigans are part of an old aristocratic order (often cash poor, in fact), and Betan Cordelia is very good about throwing her weight around (in context) for good; as is Miles, as is Aral, as is Gregor, in fact, which pisses off the conservatives of that aristocratic order no end.

And wait until you see what Mark does!
---
As to my first reactions to reading this book, lo these many years ago, I was stunned and pleased by Cordelia's (and Aral's) response to Mark. I think it may have affected my notions of parenting. ;^)

Jessie-although I liked Cordelia in the first place, her reaction to Mark truly made me love her!

same here.

I loved this book, thought it was fantastic and the best Miles adventure so far.

the only problem I had was the constant references to Bel as "it" - that really got under my skin. otherwise, no complaints and only kudos.

It's a tricky call to make, deciding on the correct pronoun. What would you have preferred?

I was thinking that same thing myself all throughout the book. I literally have no idea. because I've worked regularly with trans people for a long time now, the subject is one that is ongoing for me. I do know that many trans individuals (including intersexed individuals) would be direly offended/degraded by "it". in real life at least, I would just follow the person's lead. but we don't get to see how Bel refers to himself/herself. a conundrum!

I did get the impression that "it" was what Bel preferred, or at least that that was the "politically correct" thing to do on Beta Colony. Miles seems to be being thoughtful and considerate (or perhaps just accurate?) whereas those less in the know just assume a gender and thrust Bel into a preassigned gender box.

Have you seen this before?
http://genderneutralpronoun.wordpress...

I wonder if I missed that because the one thing I've missed while reading this series is that novella featuring Bel & Taura & Miles. hmmm.

well, must say that your excellent point is rather a relief to me. my problem was not so much with how Miles' referred to Bel but how Bujold herself referred to Bel. it seemed like such a lapse from an author who has mainly impressed me with her sensitivity. if that novella (or another novel, if I missed it) established that Bel's preference is "it"... then, yeah. good. very good! wish I had known that before reading the book.

Alexa wrote: "Have you seen this before?
http://genderneutralpronoun.wordpress..."

no I haven't! love it. I will be sharing that.

what I have come across, several times now, is the self-designation of "they". it is awkward, of course. and hard to remember because the mind goes automatically to a place of they=plural rather than they=gender neutral. but in the end, I will refer to a person however they want me to refer to them, so for some folks, "they" it is.

Actually, no, I think I just read that into it. Bel doesn't show up all that much in Labyrinth. I think I got that impression from The Warrior's Apprentice when he's living with his grandmother and first meets Bel.