Flights of Fantasy discussion

Because we like this, too. :)

Absolutely! :)

With The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe winning the inaugural vote, I'm torn between reading it by itself, or starting with the eventual first story in the series The Magician's Nephew.
Either way I'll be reading from this edition: The Chronicles of Narnia.

Any suggestions?

Have you read the series before, Nyssa? Personally, I don't think that The Magician's Nephew HAS to be read first. It doesn't really have any bearing on The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe, except for Narnia's creation.

If you go in publication order, LW&W is first.

Becky wrote: "Have you read the series before, Nyssa? Personally, I don't think that The Magician's Nephew HAS to be read first. It doesn't really have any bearing on The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe, excep..."

No Becs, I haven't. I tried a couple of years ago (starting with TMN) but didn't get very far.

When I was a kid, LW&W was the first book. It wasn't until later that the publishers decided to swap them all around.

So TMN was simply a prequel originally, just without Jar Jar Binks.

Nyssa wrote: "With The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe winning the inaugural vote, I'm torn between reading it by itself, or starting with the eventual first story in the series [book:The Magicia..."

I'd strongly recommend reading in publication order. I mean, I'm usually a stickler for publication order anyway, but IMO there's a fair bit of stuff in The Magician's Nephew that just doesn't click properly unless you've read at least The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.

Nyssa wrote: "No Becs, I haven't. I tried a couple of years ago (starting with TMN) but didn't get very far."

I'm not surprised, honestly. I remember reading and loving LW&W when I was a kid, and then as an adult, when I picked up the omnibus, I started with TMN, and I was like "Uhhh, where's all the adventure?!"

But it is a good story, just... not maybe the best draw into the world.

Where does it go in publication order? And what's up with every fantasy writer writing out of order?

I've read both. And I read The Magician's Nephew first. There's stuff in TMN that will add to what happens in LW&W but it works either way.

Original publication order:

1. The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe
2. Prince Caspian
3. The Voyage of the Dawn Treader
4. The Silver Chair
5. The Horse and His Boy
6. The Magician's Nephew
7. The Last Battle

Fantasy authors often write out of chronological sequence because there are things from their world's past that you need to understand in order for things from their world's future to make sense. This is why it drives me nuts when sites like Goodreads catalogue series in chronological order instead of publication order. Chronological order sometimes works. Publication order always works, otherwise it wouldn't have been written that way.

TMN is probably my favorite of the series. Mot sure why, but I agree that it does not have to be read before LWW. Like Becky said, it explains the creation and the lamp post. :)

I would say if we decide to move forward with the series it would be good to read TMN second.

Well, I think there's also just the fact that sometimes the story calls to the writer in different ways.

Stephen King's Dark Tower series is like that. Look at The Wind Through The Keyhole. It technically takes place between books 4 & 5, but is 8 in published order.

According to Wikipedia, C.S. Lewis is claimed to have thought that the story was done after LW&W... until more Narnia stories kept coming to him.

Felina wrote: "I would say if we decide to move forward with the series it would be good to read TMN second."

It's sixth in publication order. I'd have to talk with the other mods since we haven't made a collective call yet but I doubt we'll do any series out of publication order, because I will scream bloody murder if we do. ;)

eta: Unless you meant a buddy read, in which case knock yourself out.

This is another series that I haven't finished. I would definitely be game for a series read! :)

Titania wrote: "Original publication order:

1. The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe
2. Prince Caspian
3. The Voyage of the Dawn Treader
4. The Silver Chair
5. The Horse and His Boy
6. The Magician's Nephew
7. The..."

But does it make sense this way?

I always read in chronological order because I figure the authors wanted books placed in a certain order for a reason. So while he/she may have written the prequel after the 3rd book in the series, its still a prequel and is therefore meant to be read first. Not sure if I'm making my meaning clear...

If they meant it to be read first, though, it would have been published first. There's a lot of prequels out there that, while they take place earlier in the world's history, depend on knowledge from books that were written earlier. That's why the author chose to do them in a higgledy-piggledy order rather than, you know, start at the beginning, and when you reach the end, stop.

An example that comes to mind is Anne McCaffrey's Pern series. I don't think it would be a good idea at all to read Dragonsdawn without having read the books that were published earlier because you'd be missing a lot of context. Also Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar series, where the earliest chronological books are the Mage Wars ones, but she just kind of takes for granted that you know some stuff that was detailed in the earlier published trilogies like Mage Winds and never bothers to re-explain it.

I have reread Narnia in chronological order because one of the omnibus editions I have (I've got three copies of the Narnia series :D) has them that way, and it's fine for a reread, but in my opinion it would be a bit nonsensical for a first read. For a first read publication order is by far the best. I can't imagine reading The Magician's Nephew without knowing the stuff about Aslan that's laid out in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.

The omnibus edition that I have lays it out in reading order, which according to them was done according to Lewis's preference. So, I started with The Magician's Nephew first not knowing anything and then went into LWW and I was fine following along. I agree with Becky that it's not as adventurous a story as the others. I have yet to finish all the stories so a reading of the entire series sounds fun to me.

Titania wrote: "If they meant it to be read first, though, it would have been published first. There's a lot of prequels out there that, while they take place earlier in the world's history, depend on knowledge fr..."

See then if thats the case, its not a prequel, but a flashback and should be listed as such, IMO.

Would anyone ever read The Butlerian Jihad before Dune?

Chris wrote: "Would anyone ever read The Butlerian Jihad before Dune?"

That is such a good example. In fact I'm stealing that next time I have this debate. ;)

Chris wrote: "Would anyone ever read The Butlerian Jihad before Dune?"

Wouldn't know..never read either and didn't finish watching Dune.

Or, you could read The Family Corleone before The Godfather. It's possible. But to me, it just wouldn't have the same impact.

This would actually be a discussion we could continue into January. Anyone that prefers to read TMN first would have time to knock it out before January too.

I would love to find someone who knows absolutely nothing (and I mean nothing) about Star Wars and make them watch Episodes 1-6 in that order. Because I think it would be fun. Mean. But fun.

:)

That's a good one, Nienna. I mean, who sees (view spoiler)[Palpatine (hide spoiler)] in The JarJar Menace and doesn't go (view spoiler)[Oh, that's the douche that becomes the freakin' Emperor! (hide spoiler)].

I put spoiler tags so the two people on the planet that hasn't seen these won't be spoilt.

Chris wrote: "That's a good one, Nienna. I mean, who sees [spoilers removed] in The JarJar Menace and doesn't go [spoilers removed].

I put spoiler tags so the two people on the planet that hasn't seen these won..."

There are that many? LOL

Nienna wrote: "I would love to find someone who knows absolutely nothing (and I mean nothing) about Star Wars and make them watch Episodes 1-6 in that order. Because I think it would be fun. Mean. But fun.

:)"

Haha. Now I have to find a friend with kids and ask if they can shelter them from all things Star Wars so I can experiment on them...

(Somehow I've a feeling the answer won't be yes.)

Nyssa wrote: "Chris wrote: "Would anyone ever read The Butlerian Jihad before Dune?"

Wouldn't know..never read either and didn't finish watching Dune."

Well... I mean, the fact you haven't finished watching Dune just means that you have enough of a sense of self-preservation to protect your eyesight. It's TERRIBLE. Even for an 80s movie.

Harkonnen... No. I won't even think about it. It hurts.

Speaking of the things I've never read...

Question: Would you consider Dragonsong to be MG or YA? How about Anne McCaffrey's works in general?

I think Dragonsong is considered YA and most of it is considered adult.

In general, I've found most of what I've tried to be ZZ.

I agree. Don't torture yourself with the film. The film is an abomination.

The book is beautiful though.

Dragonsong was in the adult section when I was a kid, but these days I think it'd probably be considered YA, along with the rest of the original Harper Hall books. Most of McCaffrey's works are adult though.

Titania wrote: "I agree. Don't torture yourself with the film. The film is an abomination.

The book is beautiful though.

Dragonsong was in the adult section when I was a kid, but these days I think it'd probably..."

Thanks!

Titania wrote: "I agree. Don't torture yourself with the film. The film is an abomination.

The book is beautiful though."

The film's not that bad. The mini-series is better, though, and follows the story more.

The book is ok. I think I would've liked it more had I read it in high school.

I was just eyeing the Valdemar series but couldn't figure out where to start! Stress!

Valdemar makes me think of He Who Should Not Be Named.

Chris wrote: "Valdemar makes me think of He Who Should Not Be Named."

Heh. I had the same thought.

Wiki gives the Valdemar books in chronological order, but also lists publish dates, if that helps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valdemar...

Emily wrote: "I was just eyeing the Valdemar series but couldn't figure out where to start! Stress!"

*deep breath* Okay... the Valdemar series is complicated, because it's mostly divided into trilogies, and the books in some of those trilogies have overlapping publication dates. But it isn't necessary to overlap your reading of the trilogies -- in fact, that would probably be confusing as hell. :) What you should generally do for a first read-through is read the trilogies in order of publication by publication date of the first book in each trilogy.

Confusing?

Here you go.

Arrows of the Queen
Arrow's Flight
Arrow's Fall

The Oathbound
Oathbreakers
Oathblood
By the Sword*

Magic's Pawn
Magic's Promise
Magic's Price

Winds of Fate
Winds of Change
Winds of Fury

The Black Gryphon
The White Gryphon
The Silver Gryphon

Storm Warning
Storm Rising
Storm Breaking

Owlflight
Owlsight
Owlknight

Brightly Burning

Take a Thief
Exile's Honour
Exile's Valour

Foundation
Intrigues
Changes
Redoubt
Bastion

*some people consider this a standalone book, not part of the Vows and Honour trilogy. I do not agree with them. if it were, however, the best place to put it would be after Magic's Price and before Winds of Fate.

Is it worth it? :)

Emily wrote: "Is it worth it? :)"

It ranges from really quite good to really quite terrible. I think the Last Herald-Mage, Mage Winds, Mage Wars and Mage Storms trilogies are well worthwhile, and you kinda have to read what comes before those to fully appreciate what's going on.

After that? It's something for the hardcore fans. Which I stopped being, so I still haven't read the latest trilogy, which is apparently now a quintet.

Back to Narnia for a Sec...

Jackie wrote: "The omnibus edition that I have lays it out in reading order, which according to them was done according to Lewis's preference. So, I started with The Magician's Nephew first not knowing anything ..."

I think we have the same omnibus edition because mine says the same...

Although The Magician's Nephew was written several years after C.S. Lewis first began The Chronicles of Narnia, he wanted it to be read as the first book in the series. HarperCollins is happy to present these books in the order in which Professor Lewis preferred.

Yes, the publisher's assertion in that edition is... disputed. Here's a summary of both sides taken from Wikipedia:

"When first published, the books were not numbered. The first American publisher, Macmillan, enumerated them according to their original publication order, while some early British editions specified the internal chronological order. When Harper Collins took over the series rights in 1994, they adopted chronological order. To make the case for chronological order, Lewis' stepson, Douglas Gresham, quoted Lewis' 1957 reply to a letter from an American fan who was having an argument with his mother about the order:

'I think I agree with your [chronological] order for reading the books more than with your mother's. The series was not planned beforehand as she thinks. When I wrote The Lion I did not know I was going to write any more. Then I wrote P. Caspian as a sequel and still didn't think there would be any more, and when I had done The Voyage I felt quite sure it would be the last, but I found I was wrong. So perhaps it does not matter very much in which order anyone read them. I’m not even sure that all the others were written in the same order in which they were published.'[22]

In the 2005 Harper Collins adult editions of the books, the publisher cites this letter to assert Lewis' preference for the numbering they adopted by including this notice on the copyright page:

'Although The Magician's Nephew was written several years after C. S. Lewis first began The Chronicles of Narnia, he wanted it to be read as the first book in the series. Harper Collins is happy to present these books in the order in which Professor Lewis preferred.'

Paul Ford cites several scholars who have weighed in against this view,[23] and continues, "most scholars disagree with this decision and find it the least faithful to Lewis's deepest intentions".[4] Scholars and readers who appreciate the original order believe that Lewis was simply being gracious to his youthful correspondent and that he could have changed the books' order in his lifetime had he so desired.[24] They maintain that much of the magic of Narnia comes from the way the world is gradually presented in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe – that the mysterious wardrobe, as a narrative device, is a much better introduction to Narnia than The Magician's Nephew, where the word "Narnia" appears in the first paragraph as something already familiar to the reader. Moreover, they say, it is clear from the texts themselves that The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe was intended to be read first. When Aslan is first mentioned in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, for example, the narrator says that "None of the children knew who Aslan was, any more than you do" — which is nonsensical if one has already read The Magician's Nephew.[25] Other similar textual examples are also cited.[26]"

I agree with the latter viewpoint myself. The introduction of Aslan in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe just doesn't work right if you've read The Magician's Nephew. Conversely, one is not properly introduced to Narnia in The Magician's Nephew but is dropped into it abruptly with certain foreknowledge assumed.

Titania wrote: "Yes, the publisher's assertion in that edition is... disputed. Here's a summary of both sides taken from Wikipedia:

"When first published, the books were not numbered. The first American publisher..."

Well, you've convinced me...

More specifically. this:

They maintain that much of the magic of Narnia comes from the way the world is gradually presented in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe – that the mysterious wardrobe, as a narrative device, is a much better introduction to Narnia than The Magician's Nephew, where the word "Narnia" appears in the first paragraph as something already familiar to the reader. Moreover, they say, it is clear from the texts themselves that The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe was intended to be read first. When Aslan is first mentioned in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, for example, the narrator says that "None of the children knew who Aslan was, any more than you do" — which is nonsensical if one has already read The Magician's Nephew.

It is a most persuasive paragraph. I think I'm going to save it in my Kindle notes. :)

While I would encourage first-time readers to explore Narnia in publication order, though, it'll be interesting if we do a buddy read to examine both ways of tackling the series for re-readers.

Honestly, the only reason I think Lewis wanted TMN first is because of (view spoiler)[ the clear parallel to the creation story. I think the Christian in him wouldn't allow the creation story to be anywhere in the series except the beginning. (hide spoiler)]

Nienna wrote: "I would love to find someone who knows absolutely nothing (and I mean nothing) about Star Wars and make them watch Episodes 1-6 in that order. Because I think it would be fun. Mean. But fun.

:)"

My children did, to no ill effects...they still love the series and felt that 1 & 2 helped 4-6 make more sense.

They actually watched in the following order: 1,2,4,5,6,3 because my husband felt they were too young for 3 at the time. They then went back and watched all of them in chronological order, a second time.
I, personally, still haven't seen #3 and have no particular desire to do so.

I'm one of those rare Star Wars fans that actually enjoy the prequels. Its my biggest and most guilty of guilty pleasures. And Revenge of the Sith is my favorite of the three.

Dodging blaster fire... Lol.

Thomas wants me to sit down and watch the prequels with him. He keep saying "Let's watch Star Wars." and I keep twitching, because to me, those aren't "Star Wars" those are "Those OTHER movies with Star Wars titles".

I've seen them, once, and for me, that's enough. But I guess in a relationship one must make sacrifices.

I'll bring my knitting.

It'll get interesting here when the new ones start coming out.

Uhh, yeah, so I got a magazine the other day (I don't remember which one) but it had Tina Fey and Amy Poehler on the cover, and said something about them playing Darth Vader's moms.

What the hell is THAT about?