Flights of Fantasy discussion

Our inaugural sci-fi book is The Book (heh) by M. Clifford!

Please remember to mark any spoilers by using the spoiler tag -- type < spoiler> your spoiler here < /spoiler>, without the spaces. Posts containing unmarked spoilers may be deleted.

Discussion begins on Jan 1st so we'll unlock this thread closer to the time; for now, this is just a heads up so any of you who need to get a copy can do so. :)

This thread is now open for discussion!

I'm starting this one now... I hope it's good! :D

Read this last month - I think this conversation will be really interesting.

I love this book! :)

I read a little bit of this last night, up to chapter 4, and so far I'm intrigued by it, but I keep being distracted by the author's descriptive writing, which is unfortunate. It's like he's trying too hard to make the book wow me, and really all he's accomplishing is making me confused.

I mean, how does a bamboo door close "significantly"? In what way is he closing the door "in a sufficiently great or important way as to be worthy of attention"? Is he now locked into the room? (No.) Is there something important about the door? (Doesn't seem to be.) It's bamboo - if anything, I'd think that it would be lighter, less significant.

And then there's the sentence where he steps out of a cab into "irrelevant rain". If it's irrelevant, why mention it?

I think, so far, that this would be much better served if the author knew his story a little better and wrote accordingly. Right now, it doesn't feel like this is a story being told by an (as of right now) unnamed friend of Holden's, it feels like 3rd person limited from Holden's perspective, and Holden IS a reader, but also a very simple man, from what I can tell. I can't see him describing rain as anything other than wet, or annoying, or cold.

Otherwise, I'm interested to see where it's going. I'm hoping for something big. :)

I liked the idea of this one, but pretty much hated the writing as well. I had some issues with the main character, specifically, that I'm interested to talk about once I'm at a real computer and can hide my spoilers.

I think I was so wrapped up in the story that I didn't notice these writing issues. Well, that's what's great about re-reads....what did I miss?????

OK, so I'm about 30% now, and I'm still not sure how I feel about this one. I'm mostly liking the story, but the writing has me exasperatedly highlighting and note taking on my nook. Words that just don't make sense, don't fit, the wrong form (COME ON AUTHORS!! THEY'RE/THEIR/THERE IS SO OVERDONE.), wrong tense... there's just a LOT of errors. :(

Still, I'm finding the story interesting, but I do hope that it gets where it's trying to go soon. We've established that there's something going on, now let's get to whatever you're going to do about it. So I'd say that I think the pacing is lacking a little bit.

And I'm finding some things a little odd regarding the characters and their actions. (view spoiler)[First, when Holden confronts Marion about the discrepancies in the Book vs the page from her bathroom wall, she's SUPREMELY uninterested, and claims to not be a reader. To her, the book pages on the walls are nothing more than wallpaper. Ignored and unimportant except for the fact that it was innovative for her grandfather to have "recycled" them in that way. So, the fact that she'd go frantically searching her Book just when Holden learns it would be dangerous to do so seems... unrealistic and out of character for her. As does the fact that she'd have a copy of the Book from when she was a little girl... but can't describe it. It just seems really contradictory. (hide spoiler)]

Here's hoping that this comes together into an overall decent story, though.

Becky, you are making me nervous. I hope I like this as well the second time around. You are making great points.

Kathy wrote: "Becky, you are making me nervous. I hope I like this as well the second time around. You are making great points."

I'm sorry! I really want to love it, but so far it's not really letting me. I just can't overlook the issues I keep seeing.

My major issue with this one was with the main character. Specifically, (view spoiler)[ I did not think the way that other people reacted to him was very realistic. He kept saying "I know I am their leader, they all look up to me, etc., but he never really did one thing to make him a leader. We kept being TOLD he was a leader, but that's about it. Prior to discovering the discrepancies, he seemed like a barely likeable guy with one friend. After, he basically did nothing except find people with good ideas and access to money. And yet, he kept being lauded as this amazing guy. And the "love interest" was barely there. He basically treated her like junk. I mean, in the penultimate scene, she says I love you and he basically says "I know." (hide spoiler)]

I guess I just didn't really buy the relationships, when it comes down to it. For me, that is almost always a story killer.

Don't be sorry, Becky. I know I get carried away in story. I tend to only notice problems, discrepancies or issues if there's not a story to get lost in. That can be both a good thing, I think, as well as a bad thing! That's why, if I really like a book it has to stand up to the re-read test.

Emily - I agree with most of your points, and I can see that already starting to take shape where I am. (view spoiler)[Holden hasn't really done anything on his own that has in any way benefited anyone. He happened to realize that there was a discrepancy, and then when the shit started rising, he proceeded to drag Marion down to keep himself afloat. (Not intentionally, and she also acted out of character, so I think a 3 way blame split is warranted there, between the characters and the author.)
But aside from remembering that Winston had books, he's done nothing at all so far to earn the reverent status that the intro seemed to give him. WINSTON sought him out for the job, and then "whoopsie!" let him find his books. WINSTON is the one telling him everything that's going on. WINSTON is the one harboring Marion. So far I am going to guess that Winston props Holden up as the "leader" simply because he's younger and has less to lose. That's my theory. (hide spoiler)]

Regarding the relationship, I'm actually going to differ with you. (view spoiler)[I find it kind of refreshing that there's not a typical romantic element. I find it to be one of the only things that I like about Holden (so far) - that he understands himself to know that he's not really interested in Marion in that way, and that any temptation he has towards her is only physical, and he doesn't want to get mixed up in something he can't/won't sustain and would only hurt her in the end. (hide spoiler)]

Becky, I think the "relationship" annoyed me more as the book went on, so I'll be interested to hear your take at the end!

Ahh, I see. Well, I'll let you know! :)

You know, I will say that I'm appreciating this book for the way it makes me appreciate reading and honoring words and thoughts and ideas even more than I do already. The thought of that being lost is terrifying and it makes me want to go out and buy all of the books in order to protect it.

It makes me think of Scout from To Kill A Mockingbird saying "Until I feared I'd lose it, I did not love reading." Well I do love it, but more because of how scary it would be to lose it.

Absolutely, Becky! That quote from To Kill A Mockingbird is one of my favorites! lol.

I read this book the first time on my kindle. It was funny, cause I kept looking at it funny and it was very weird....wrong almost. I liked it so much I went and ordered the physical copy immediately. I don't think I could ever read this one again on my kindle! lol

Becky, I'm with you. I really enjoyed the idea of the story (and reading it on a Kindle made me feel like a jerk!). I think that's partially why the execution frustrated me so much. I wouldn't have cared if nothing was intriguing about it.

Becky wrote: "You know, I will say that I'm appreciating this book for the way it makes me appreciate reading and honoring words and thoughts and ideas even more than I do already. The thought of that being lost..."

You nailed it on why I liked this book as much as I did.

I agree with that you had to say about the writing, but I sort of overlooked it because I liked the message of the book so much. Plus, I think some of the typos actually worked in the book's favor because it reinforced the message. Not saying it excuses bad editing though.

As far as Holden...I agree with the comments so far. (view spoiler)[ I think he was elected as leader more so because he was the first one to bring the problem to light and the original group was connected by their different relationships with Holden. But, I don't think he earned the title or grew into the title until the end. And even in the end I think he served more as a (view spoiler)[martyr than a leader. (hide spoiler)]
(hide spoiler)]

As far as the relationsip- Emily, I agree with you. I did like that it was realistically portrayed in the beginning, but the end- seriously don't click here if you don't want to know the end...-(view spoiler)[ he could have said I love you back, because I think he really did start to have feelings for her. And really, to just say "I know" at such a moment is just beyond effed up. Marion must have felt like shit knowing she died with such a selfish jerk by her side. (hide spoiler)]

I'm curious as to what people will think about the end. I thought it ended rather hokey.

Jackie wrote: "Plus, I think some of the typos actually worked in the book's favor because it reinforced the message. Not saying it excuses bad editing though."

Wait, are you saying that you think the typos and word misuses are purposefully done because it's supposed to be a self-produced book by whoever the amateur is telling Holden's story?

That's very... meta.

I think it would be very clever if that's the case, but... I'm not getting that vibe. If that is what's intended, it's not done very well.

Plus, reading is a huge thing in this community. HUGE. Every scene where Holden is in public shows the majority of people with their faces stuck to their Books. Parts of books being edited and removed to suppress independent thought wouldn't change the fact that "discreet" and "discrete" have two completely different meanings.

Jackie - well put about Holden being more of a (view spoiler)[martyr than a leader! (hide spoiler)].

I didn't get that vibe at all, to be honest. I think it was just kind of sloppy.

Jackie - I agree with your spoiler regarding Holden's leadership. And you do have to remember that it's being written looking backwards, so maybe his leadership was built up a bit more after the fact by the author.

That said, I kept forgetting it was written by someone else looking backwards because it did focus on times when he was alone and no one else really could have known what he was doing or thinking. (view spoiler)[ I especially thought this was true after we learned who had written the book, since (view spoiler)[ his daughter really was never around him and I do not at all see how she could have learned any of the things she writes about, even if she spoke to his friends, etc. (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)].

I think that goes back to Jackie's comment about him being portrayed as almost a (view spoiler)[martyr (hide spoiler)]. That would explain, perhaps, his story being embellished later on as the (view spoiler)[great leader of their cause. (hide spoiler)]

Kathy - that's exactly what I was trying to say without having to make the < spoiler > marks again. Lazy! ;)

Dammit, Chris. Stop clicking the damn (view spoiler)s!

You're not in the Steelheart thread anymore...

Awww, Chris. Sorry.

No worries. It was funny. I've forgotten what I saw and it didn't make sense anyway.

especially as I was trying to put it into context with Steelheart. Heh

Okay, started this now....interesting so far.

I'm interested to see what you think, Chris.

As for myself, I'm struggling with this book a bit. Every time I start getting drawn into it, I hit a brick wall of bad writing, or odd word choice, or completely wrong word, or something. It's incredibly frustrating.

I can see that underneath there's a good story, but I just keep hitting these sour patches in the writing, and my nook is starting to look striped from all the highlighting I'm doing. :(

I just keep thinking...

Ok. I have to vent. (Some more, I mean.) But this time it's not about the quality of the writing.

This book is pissing me off right now with (view spoiler)[ the way that Moby keeps being described as a whale, and how his size and weight keep being mentioned over and over and over. I got the reference in his name the first time (it's not like it's rocket science), but the way it keeps being used as the only descriptor for Moby is really getting on my nerves, and at this point, I'm getting very tired of the casual, look-how-clever-I-am sizeism. >_< (hide spoiler)]

Becky wrote: "Ok. I have to vent. (Some more, I mean.) But this time it's not about the quality of the writing.

This book is pissing me off right now with [spoilers removed]"

I don't even remember that! :(

There have been several examples back to back, and it's not only extremely insulting, but it's also completely irrelevant.

Here are a couple of them: (view spoiler)[
First, page 132, when he and Moby flew to NYC to brand stuff: "They only hoped during the tight, flight home (human whales weren't the best travel-pals) that the other groups had been able to inflict as much truth-laden damage."

Then, page 134: "After meeting up with his partner in crime, Moby Van Dinh, the tattooed whale who was now a dear friend, Holden strapped into the makeshift branding suit{...}"

Then, page 135: "With a ridiculous grin, Holden posed and Moby took a photograph like any other, average, run-of-the-mill three-hundred pound sightseer." (hide spoiler)]

Wait... (view spoiler)[ are you saying Moby is whale-like? (hide spoiler)] Just wanted to check because that was pretty subtle. ;)

Emily wrote: "Wait... [spoilers removed] Just wanted to check because that was pretty subtle. ;)"

I THINK that's what he's going for. I'm not 100% though. Maybe a few dozen more references and I can be more confident of the conclusion.

O_o

Becky wrote: "Jackie wrote: "Plus, I think some of the typos actually worked in the book's favor because it reinforced the message. Not saying it excuses bad editing though."

Wait, are you saying that you think..."


No, I do think there was sloppy editing with this book. But, to be honest I either didn't pay attention enough or just don't remember how bad it was. For example, (view spoiler)[ you mention the references to Moby's size and while yes, I remember it being mentioned, I don't remember being hit over the head with it. (hide spoiler)]

Yeah, sloppy or nonexistent.

(view spoiler)[The size thing just stands out to me because I think it's incredibly rude to use "whale" as a descriptive term at any time (even if it's supposed to be a tongue-in-cheek reference to his name which is funny ha-ha because he's also really big), but to keep doing it over and over is not cool. And really unimaginative. Are there NO other words to describe him? (hide spoiler)]

The dialogue is atrocious.

Déjà vu. This is like Game. Not in a good way.

I haven't read that one so I don't know how it's similar.

The plot is different but some of the scenes are very similar.

Becky wrote: "Right now, it doesn't feel like this is a story being told by an (as of right now) unnamed friend of Holden's, it feels like 3rd person limited from Holden's perspective..."

Wait, what?

This isn't Holden's POV? lol

I got that from the very first chapter, but after that it seemed to switch to Holden.

Until it briefly switched to Marion and back again, both switches for no sane reason.

Ugh.

"Holden glinted a delicate smile..."

WTF? Is he a pole dancer?

So, in Chapter 10, (view spoiler)[he decides to retrieve Marion's diary. That she got as a companion to her Book. That he threw out the window because he was afraid of being traced by "Them." So he's going to risk his life to get her diary? Ummm, is there any chance that They could trace the diary?? (hide spoiler)]

Holden is dumber than a stump.

Chris wrote: "Ugh.

"Holden glinted a delicate smile..."

WTF? Is he a pole dancer?

So, in Chapter 10, [spoilers removed]

Holden is dumber than a stump."

Chris, I think, if a government is that controlling, by all means they can (view spoiler)[trace their "books" or diaries, etc. (hide spoiler)]

He "holstered" the keys?

He was careful not to knock the walls with his ladder. And didn't act out of the ordinary.

So it's normal to walk around with ladders.

And how the actual fuck are those men concealing themselves and searching at the same time?

I'm trying really hard not to read this thread before I read the book (which I've already purchased), but the snippets I'm seeing are starting to scare me.

I'm spending more time picking out WTFery than actually reading.

I think I'm going to have to start this next. I'm anxious to see how this book stacks up to a re-read, though I'm really nervous about it. I absolutely loved the story, but since I know what is going to happen, I will have no choice but to pay attention to the writing. I'm very nervous! :(

I can sometimes enjoy a story despite the writing, but more often, if the writing is bad, it just stops me in my tracks and I have to try to figure out what the author was actually trying to say before I can go on. I just can't help feeling like a walking thesaurus while I'm reading this. I keep getting caught up short by misused words and thinking "Nope. That word doesn't quite fit. Should have used ____... Or just rewritten it altogether."

I read a sentence last night in which "abdicator" was used to mean "supporter", which is just 100% wrong. What he probably meant to use was "advocate". It's clear to me that Clifford has no idea what the words he uses actually mean. Which is how I think the majority of this book was written. It's just not OK.

It's a shame, because it could have been very good, but... it's just not.