Dystopia Land discussion

Well I still haven't read it, soon though.

Oh, are you in for something ;)

Marilyn wrote: "Oh, are you in for something ;)"

I'll make sure to read it today or tomorrow. :D

Once read, it never leaves you. The horror of it.

Debbie wrote: "Once read, it never leaves you. The horror of it."

I just read it. I must say I had a feeling where it is going from the beginning, but wasn't sure. You are right about the horror. (view spoiler)[The thought that people might be doing something like that just because it is a tradition. I think the fact that there wasn't any reasoning behind the lottery it made it look even worst. Not that there could be any justification, but it just leaves it for our imagination. (hide spoiler)]

But was it horror, or did it seem to fit?

Marilyn wrote: "But was it horror, or did it seem to fit?"

I think I was left more with a gratitude that I don't participate in any similar ritual. As an act itself it is not the most violent or horrific. I wonder if that was a true story, how it would affect the psychology of people and what motivation would any town have to participate in something like that [apart from sadist]

I read a little excerpt of this on Kindle, I have to get my hands on this book!

Jackie (fireandicebookreviews.blogspot.com) wrote: "I read a little excerpt of this on Kindle, I have to get my hands on this book!"

There is a compilation of short stories, but you can read this story by itself for free, from any of the links in the description above. I can convert it for for kindle, if you need.

Will you pleaseee?

yes I will :) Send me your email on PM

Jackie (fireandicebookreviews.blogspot.com) wrote: "Will you pleaseee?"

I uploaded it Here

Thank you! ☺️

Ellie [The Empress] wrote: "I wonder if that was a true story, how it would affect the psychology of people and what motivation would any town have to participate in something like that [apart from sadist]..."

"The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas" by Ursula Le Guin sets up one possible answer to this sort of question. It can be read free online here

Michele wrote: ""The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas" by Ursula Le Guin sets up one possible answer to this sort of question. It can be read free online here "

Thank you for this short story. Will be the next one I read :D

Ellie [The Empress] wrote: "I wonder if that was a true story..."

Historically there are many instances of things like this. Appeasing angry gods, ensuring success in tribal wars, ensuring plentiful crops, etc.

The horror I experienced was in the senselessness and yet it continued.

Thanks for the link. Will read it soon!

Roderick wrote: "Thanks for the link. Will read it soon!"

You're welcome :D

So I just finished The Lottery. It's been so many years since I read this. Wow! How it builds with the suspense! For me, it really gets going here: "By now, all through the crowd there were men holding the small folded papers in their large hand. turning them over and over nervously Mrs. Dunbar and her two sons stood together, Mrs. Dunbar holding the slip of paper."

I think it an interesting comment on collectivism. (view spoiler)[There was someone who said that The Lottery had stopped in other counties, but he was quickly dismissed. (hide spoiler)] Any thoughts on that? Also, do you think part of "The Hunger Games" was modeled on this story?

Roderick wrote: "Also, do you think part of "The Hunger Games" was modeled on this story? ..."

Certainly they share a similar theme and some plot elements (e.g., the influence of wealth/class on who's likely to end up dead). And it's hard to avoid this particular story since it turns up in so many American Lit anthologies used in school, so I'd bet that Suzanne Collins had read it.

I think the key difference is that in "The Lottery" we have no idea why they're doing this horrific thing, while in HG we know exactly why. Which is more morally questionable, do you think?

Michele wrote: "I think the key difference is that in "The Lottery" we have no idea why they're doing this horrific thing, while in HG we know exactly why. Which is more morally questionable, do you think? "

I don't think any of the case are justified, but we [people] always look for a reason. It somehow shows you there is another point and we feel it might be justified or turn a blind eye, while something unjustified can be only compared to the actions of psychopaths. That is why I don't think The Lottery can be compared with sacrifices and offerings to the gods. They had "some" explanation.

Hi Michelle and Ellie,

I appreciate your responses. I think one of the interesting things of this story is that the third person narrator remained objective. Except for one comment which I alluded to in my spoiler. Here morality was thrown into question, but "groupthink" overruled. That to me, was what was interesting. I agree Ellie, that this can't be compared with sacrifices and offerings to the gods. It seemed more about maintaining a tradition (as it was no longer a law) in this demented society.

Roderick wrote: " Except for one comment which I alluded to in my spoiler. Here morality was thrown into question, but "groupthink" overruled. "

I think that one comment showed us hope. Because some had already discarded the ritual others are starting to think the same. I think this was supported by the decay of the box, which I interpret as the decay of the tradition.

Was it mentioned somewhere that the tradition was not a law? I don't exactly remember that.

Hi Ellie, I don't remember that being mentioned. I extrapolated that. If the other villages have given it up, then most likely it wasn't a law...And good point on the decay of the box.

Roderick wrote: "Hi Ellie, I don't remember that being mentioned. I extrapolated that. If the other villages have given it up, then most likely it wasn't a law...And good point on the decay of the box."

That makes sense -.-

Ellie [The Empress] wrote: "Roderick wrote: " Except for one comment which I alluded to in my spoiler. Here morality was thrown into question, but "groupthink" overruled. "

I think that one comment showed us hope. Because so..."

Great point mentioning the decay of the box alluding to the decay of the tradition. Since some of the other towns no longer participated in the lottery it seems like only a matter of time before this town also abandons the tradition.

In the story it was mentioned that every year the townspeople talk about mending the box or making a new box but no one ever does anything to fix it. I think this just reinforces the point that the townspeople's commitment to the tradition is waning.

Alexa wrote: "Ellie [The Empress] wrote: "Roderick wrote: " Except for one comment which I alluded to in my spoiler. Here morality was thrown into question, but "groupthink" overruled. "

I think that one commen..."

Yes, I agree with that. I didn't pick up on any remorse in the ending though (or did I miss something?). So while I agree that tradition is waning, there still seemed to be a certain "thrill" with having the lottery. I like how Jackson was subtle with these points, allowing for different interpretations. What do you think?

Roderick wrote: "Yes, I agree with that. I didn't pick up on any remorse in the ending though (or did I miss something?). So while I agree that tradition is waning, there still seemed to be a certain "thrill" with having the lottery. I like how Jackson was subtle with these points, allowing for different interpretations. What do you think? "

I actually thought they were rushing trough the must-do-ending. And true the whole lottery in fact. As if they just wanted to get over with i, get back to their lives and forget the whole thing. The only excitement I think was in the beginning when the boys were (view spoiler)[collecting the stones (hide spoiler)]

Roderick wrote: " So while I agree that tradition is waning, there still seemed to be a certain "thrill" with having the lottery..."

Freud's death wish? Or just the same thing that drives people to do extreme skiing or skydiving -- the risk, the rush you get from having survived?

Michele wrote: "Roderick wrote: " So while I agree that tradition is waning, there still seemed to be a certain "thrill" with having the lottery..."

Freud's death wish? Or just the same thing that drives people ..."

Hi Michele, interesting idea on Freud's death wish, but I think it's more the latter along with the sickness of the collective.

"Bill Hutchinson held it up, and there was a stir in the crowd."

He almost seems happy it's not him, even though it's his wife. A thrill perhaps? Where are the tears?

"All right, folks." Mr. Summers said. "Let's finish quickly."

This supports Ellie's theory.

"Although the villagers had forgotten the ritual and lost the original black box, they still remembered to
use stones. The pile of stones the boys had made earlier was ready; there were stones on the ground with the blowing scraps of paper that had come out of the box Delacroix selected a stone so large she had to pick it up with both hands and turned to Mrs. Dunbar. "Come on," she said. "Hurry up.""

Supports both my theory and Ellie's theory. Some select large stones, some are asking to hurry it up...Is there a split in the collective? Perhaps...

That's why this story is brilliant in my opinion. Nothing is obvious.

Coming from a country famous for bull killing, i see the society of "the lottery" is very similar to the Spanish one. We may not know why it is that they do this kind of killing but tradition. You can make the best arguments, that anyone would accept and understand. But tradition is an argument much more stronger than all of that when you meet a plain person. That town is simply full of plain people who, as Warner is, are reluctant to any change, despite things have changed a little.

Carlos wrote: "Coming from a country famous for bull killing, i see the society of "the lottery" is very similar to the Spanish one. We may not know why it is that they do this kind of killing but tradition. You ..."

I can't disagree more. There is huge difference between the lottery and a bull killing.
A bull killing is like a game, it can back fire. It's exciting. Men have been hunting and killing since beginning of human time. I'm justifying it, but to compare a hunt with the blunt (view spoiler)[killing of a person that you have known all your life? That might be even your child and you not only have to watch die but participate in their killing? (hide spoiler)]Can you really compare it?

It was a hyperbole, @Ellie, but bull-fighting can be reduced to people having fun while looking a man wounding an animal in a spectacular way. It's not killing for meat, it's killing for fun.

I think Carlos is comparing more here about the concept of tradition, the example in the lottery taken to its extreme. Tradition itself is modeled after groupthink, and can be a powerful tool to galvanize or cow people together. But tradition, can also be a good thing. I think here though, the author is trying to show it in its negative light.

That's the point. While some traditions are good, others aren't, and these can't be defended with reasonable arguments, despite many people likes them.

Sorry. I was wondering if I misunderstood you.

I was first exposed to this piece in my college literature class when we watched the 1969 movie. Due to the fact that I had not read the story I was so surprised by the ending. To see it performed like that really brings the piece to life and leaves you in awe. While you know that something is going to happen with the kids collecting the stones there is just something inside that tries to rally against it and hope for a better outcome.

This is a great dystopian short story and one of my favorite.

I've just read it and was thoroughly disturbed. I think the worst bit is where everyone participates, in both the lottery AND the stoning afterwards, no matter how young or old they are. Truly horrifying.

To me this isn't about tradition as much as it is about the dangers of indoctrination, and about how easy it is to get people to believe the most terrible things simply because they've always been told that it's right. Germany in the 1930s, for example, or slavery.

Then again tradition is often associated with rituals, so it would definitely fit in that sense.

One thing I find unusual is that in most stories of this sort it's the stranger/outsider who ends up being the victim -- lots of horror stories have this trope, where someone wanders into a small town and ends up being trapped/killed by the locals (e.g., Children of the Corn, The Wicker Man). Fear of the outsider of course has a long genetic/evolutionary history. What makes "The Lottery" particularly horrible is that people turn on their own friends, neighbors, family, which flies in the face of not only civilized behavior (pointless murder) but also of basic human instinct (protect your own group at all costs). It's unnatural at an almost cellular level.

Kristina, I had no idea a movie had been made of it! I shall have to check it out.

Michele wrote: "To me this isn't about tradition as much as it is about the dangers of indoctrination, and about how easy it is to get people to believe the most terrible things simply because they've always been ..."

@Michelle, you said, "It's unnatural at an almost cellular level."

I agree with that, but I think it's also why the story is so powerful. I see it more of tradition than indoctrination though. I didn't catch a belief system in the narrative. The fact that other villages stopped the tradition implied their was "free will" with this village. One can extrapolate as well that their was no law holding them to it. Perhaps I am wrong?

I agree with that, but I think it's also why the story is so powerful.

Yes indeed! This story gives me something like the feeling I get when I see previews for horror movies where people are crawling on the ceiling or have their head on backwards: something so deeply wrong packs a huge punch.

We're discussing a classic. You can't start writing horror or suspense before you read Shirley Jackson. Tradition is important. I may sound snotty but saying you write horror or dystopia and you have't read Shirley Jackson is like saying you are a writer but you don't like Shakespeare. Sorry if that offends, but tradition is part of a writer's education. You have to read the classics. Sorry to be hard. Painful to see classics dismissed.