Reading the Chunksters discussion

This is the thread for our next buddy read Winter's Tale by Mark Helprin

All the discussion takes place in this thread. The official start day is March 01, 2014

Please indicate in your post about what part of the novel your post is. If you want to disclose something pertaining to the plot, and it often happens and will happen, please use a spoiler alert. To help you with spoiler alerts, please check formatting tips in 'some html is ok' above your comment box.

The tentative schedule follows the four parts of the novel, but because they are large, and parts II and III are slightly smaller in size than parts I and IV, I think it is only natural to assume that you can comment on any part of the novel you have read, even if you have read just the first couple of pages. Then label is as the initial discussion.

Again, please use spoiler alerts for spoilers because all the discussion takes place in one thread for buddy reads.
(view spoiler)[ I am very excited about this new project (hide spoiler)]

OK, having had Part I read a few days ago, I'm excited to hear what people think when caught up. So far, this is unlike any recent book I have read.

Part I overall: (view spoiler)[ First, I have found this book the most descriptive and poetic book I've read in a long time. It seems that I will read many pages without much physically happening in the story, yet it gives me a great many feelings and emotions, sometimes without me being able to really describe what I'm feeling, if that makes any sense at all. I tend to be a very literal person, I look at facts (in real life I am a scientist...), so at points in the book I have found myself struggling with timelines and what exactly is going on. For example, I was confused by the part where Peter and Beverly have met for the first time at the house and then Beverly sends a note to her father that she will not be joining the family for Christmas at the Lake (Peter and Beverly were going to go dancing at the restaurant). But then the very next section shows them joining the family at the Lake for Christmas so Peter can meet her family. And we see them dancing at the restaurant for New Year's Eve instead. Maybe I missed something and I should go back and reread that, but I was confused.

I realized that there was something special about this book when Beverly's siblings friends were over for dinner and a couple of the boys were sure that the photos they had found and secretly hidden upstairs, which happened to be directly above the dining table, were going to burn a hole through the floor and the father would find them. And then that is exactly what happened. :) I suppose I should have realized that this book was in the magical realm sooner than this, but I kept analyzing everything so literally and getting slightly confused up to this point. After this, I read with a bit more relaxed and open view of what is "allowed" to happen. (hide spoiler)]

I started reading it last night, so you will post in a day or two

I started it today. I will post in a couple days.

I read the first chapters, and it is quite magical... literally :-)The detailed post is coming

(view spoiler)[ I still need to plough through the next 50 -60 pages, but I can not help commenting on the earlier episode of the heist - cut the paintings out of their frames and then return them saying these are the ugliest thing ever seen is a cheeky and brazen behavior, but I could not help laughing and woke up my husband at night. I also enjoy how Helprin shows the gangster culture (hide spoiler)]

Zulfiya wrote: "[spoilers removed]"

Loved this part as well. I also liked the begining of the book from the horses perspective. For some reason I kept thinking of the horse from Disney's tangled.

Zulfiya wrote: "[spoilers removed]"

Ha ha! That part was great - it gave me a great chuckle. :)

Will be starting this just as soon as I finish The Name of the Rose as I promised myself I would clean up my currently reading pile. Should jump in sometime this weekend.

I was trying to finish the first section last night, but fell asleep at about 2 a.m., and it is not fun when you have to get up at 7 a.m.

On the other hand, I can easily post that the writing is hilarious and so fluid that you never know whether Helprin is talking about real things or magical things. I can not classify this as magical realism - most of the things do have logical explanation, but they do sound miraculous.

It is not a spoiler, so I am not marking it as such, but the magic of words and metaphors is powerful.

P.S. I was very apprehensive about this book because Helprin's political views are in stark contrast with mine, and a couple of books written by outspoken conservatives were definitely sub-par. His writing, on the other hand, trumps my expectations so far!

I am reading through very disturbing pages right now. How can he do it? combine laughter, violence, and abuse so masterfully in one book?

My whole family has been sick this week and have had little time to read. I plan on a mass reading session this weekend. I am about to start on Beverly's chapter.

I'm on a Generation 1 Kindle, is there any ways for you to list which chapters are included in which sections, because if I miss that I entered a new Section is particularly difficult for me to check. I know I'm in Beverly's chapter but I've got no idea necessarily where the falls. I'd really appreciate. Really one of the downsides of ebooks.

So far though I'm just LOVING it.

Becky wrote: "I'm on a Generation 1 Kindle, is there any ways for you to list which chapters are included in which sections, because if I miss that I entered a new Section is particularly difficult for me to che..."

I don't have my book with me today (here at work), but I remember checking where Beverly's chapter was since Kristina is on that one, and I think it started at page 86 or so, so roughly 13% of the way in the novel. The entire part I takes up the first 200 pages, about 30% of the novel.

Zulfiya wrote: "P.S. I was very apprehensive about this book because Helprin's political views are in stark contrast with mine, and a couple of books written by outspoken conservatives were definitely sub-par. His..."

I came across some Goodreads discussion about Helprin's political views, and some people stated that there were actually two different Helprins, that this one is not the conservative. I did no research of my own so I don't know if that is correct or not, but I had noticed that this particular discussion was quite heated and polarizing. Anyway, I thought I would mention it, since it was a coincidence you also brought up his political viewpoint.

Zulfiya wrote: "I am reading through very disturbing pages right now. How can he do it? combine laughter, violence, and abuse so masterfully in one book?"

I've put this book down for a bit so I don't get too far ahead of everyone. I had to go back and skim the last part of Part I - are you talking about (view spoiler)[ the section titled The Hospital in Printing House Square? Where Peter goes to the hospital to look for the little child he had seen in the hallway 20 year ago? Yes, that section was unsettling, the description of the morgue and the way the guy doing the autopsies spoke of the deceased? And then in the end it seems that no matter who you are, you are to be forgotten. So you better get all your loving in and spend as much quality time with your loved ones now while you can. It left me with quite a sad feeling. (hide spoiler)]

I'm wondering where everyone is in the book at this point? I've put it on hold for now, but I'm about halfway through Part II I think and although I don't think this is a spoiler, I will treat it as such - (view spoiler)[ for some reason I am enjoying Part II a little bit more than Part I. Perhaps it's simply because of a different setting and characters. But also, there is quite a bit of action and humor that is pretty great. I won't say anything more, lest I give anything away. (hide spoiler)]

I just finished part I. I am going to post in an hour. I have mixed thoughts about it. It is enjoyable and Peter Lake is my favorite character, but I do think Helprin is using the books as a trumpet of his religious and political beliefs about the poor. I will post a detailed thread in an hour or so.

Next week, it is time for a spring break, so I do have plans to do nothing and read. That's what I told my students:-)

Zulfiya wrote: "I just finished part I. I am going to post in an hour. I have mixed thoughts about it. It is enjoyable and Peter Lake is my favorite character, but I do think Helprin is using the books as a trumpe..."

No need to rush on a post, I was just curious where everyone was. I have more than enough to read at the moment!

I need a spring break with nothing but reading on the agenda. :)

Part I (view spoiler)[ As you mentioned, Linda, I was also confused about the magical quality of the narrative. For a while, I tried to find logical explanations, and they mostly worked, but then all those doubts reached the level when I could not suspend the disbelief any more and have to accept that this is the realm of fantasy. And as soon as I made this decision, all the sensual details in the book started making sense.

I enjoyed the sensual descriptions and the mysterious aura of the place. Helprin has wonderful descriptive skills. He evokes all the senses using wonderful and original metaphors, but I also see a big 'but' here. I do not think that narration is his strongest side - he does enjoy the language for the sake of the language, and it is good, but the story sometimes does not move or if it moves, it is jumpy and chaotic and sometimes magical writing does not save you from the critical evaluation saying, "Where is the story?"

The other thing that struck me is the attitude that Isaak Penn and the doctor in a hospital express about the poor. According to them, they are poor, and one should definitely be compassionate, but the reason why they were poor was somehow their fault - drugs, prostitution, silly decisions, or inability to think clearly and foresee the repercussions of their actions. I do know something about Helprin's political views, and they make me feel quite uncomfortable. I hope he will not make his main character Peter Lake change his mind about the poor because he never actually challenged these opinions.

Beverly is somewhat too canonical in her beauty - fair-haired and blue-eyes (another oh so conservative beauty idol) and she does not want to study about stars because she somehow intuits everything and she never studies astronomy. I find it slightly demeaning even for that time frame.

To sum it up, I am enjoying the style and some moments make me laugh and others make me stop and think about its originality and beauty, but there is something in the novel that prevents me from fully embracing it and flow with it. I always think about his second agendas, political philosophies, etc. I hope it is only my problem, but not the author's problem. And now both the horse and Peter are in a free fall (hide spoiler)]

Zulfiya wrote: "Part I "

(view spoiler)[ I was also dismayed by the scene in the hospital and the way the doctor viewed the poor. That if they just tried harder they would be able to pull themselves out of poverty. As we know, that is not always as easy at it sounds. I do not know the specifics of Helprin's political views, and I am guessing that you and I are probably more aligned than I would be with Helprin's. So, while I was reading I was not really thinking of a political or religious agenda for the novel, but just reading it for the sake of the storyline. Now that you bring it up, I am thinking of what has happened so far in Part II and trying to contrast and compare the two parts so far. And now that you bring up Beverly and the way she fits the mold of the conservative, it is quite striking in that regard.

Yes, so at the end of Part I I had to reread the last bits again. I am usually so literal that it took me a bit to realize that Peter and the horse did actually die, at least that is my take.
(hide spoiler)]

I just finished part one. Read through the spoiler alerts and agree 100 percent with what has been said. I am super excited Linda that you are enjoying part II. I do not have to work this weekend, so I plan to chill and just absorb this book. Goal is to finish Part II this weekend.

Part II (view spoiler)[ I finished part II today, and I am totally befuddled about it. It tells the story of several people whose lives are tangentially interwoven with each other, but their connections are weak and randomized. And it is o'k - it often happens in our life , but we are talking about a fantasy novel, not a realistic novel, so the plot lines should form a pattern, and to me they are not forming a pattern right now.

Again, Helprin's descriptive skills are excellent, but one does not describe for nearly 800 pages without any sense of direction.

There are redeeming moments, of course, like Jesse, an engineer with whom Hardesty travels across the USA and Mrs. Gamely whose vocabulary is immense (600,000 according to Helprin), and that is bordering on bonkers here as professors of linguistics and bibliophile usually boast a vocabulary of 25,000-30,000 words, but hey, it is fantasy and wishful thinking.

There are also disturbing messages that I read between the lines: Helprin is a sexist. He always comments on breasts, vagina, and pubic hair, but hardly on any masculine attributes. Are women just sexual toys? And why do women easily succumb to temptation and sex, for example Beverly and Virginia.
And Christiana's demeaning attitude when she calls herself very plain but in fact quite beautiful, and the weirdness of not meeting each other but talking reminded me of some Arabic traditions of brides not meeting their grooms before the wedding ceremony.

Honestly, I am getting disappointed, but I think I will keep reading due to several reasons. a. I try to finish all the books I start
b. This book, as well as the other one by Helprin, was presented to me by my husband because I asked him to buy them as we were in the middle of this buddy read planning, so the reviews were good, and he decided to buy me two ... Now, I am afraid the second one would be a waste
c. I just started reading Part III, and Peter Lake returns. Hurray! He has been the most likeable character so far. (hide spoiler)]

Zulfiya wrote: "Part II ."

I have not come back to finish reading Part II yet, so I'm still midpoint and will wait to read your post afterward.

OK, I just finished reading Part II this morning.

(view spoiler)[ I completely agree with you on all points. When I had reached midpoint through Part II, I was really enjoying the novel - I loved Hardesty's story, his decision he makes to give all his father's assets to his brother and to take only the tray, and then the best part for me was his adventure with Jesse. I found their exploration of the cave and the catapult they made to help them cross the river (in which they had to put on the puffball suits for a soft landing), and then the way Jesse exits the novel was hilarious. I loved this story. I also liked Mrs. Gamely and especially her rooster, how she talks to him like he understands (we have pet hens, so I totally understood her here!). That's interesting, the difference you give in Mrs. Gamely's vocabulary with that of linguistic professors, it certainly puts Mrs. Gamely's extensive vocabulary into perspective!

But then we return to the city and although I sensed that Hardesty and Virginia were meant to be together, I found the storyline of them meeting and falling in love immediately a bit tiring. And then again with Christiana and Asbury. I found the bit where they meet through the wall was fun, but then for them to continue on in that manner for months was over the top.

I also agree with you that all the women are described as completely beautiful and perfect, this isn't reality at all. I was perplexed and then angry by the way Christiana went to live with Marcel, and that everyone assumed that she slept with Marcel for her keep - what, is that the only thing a beautiful woman is good for? And then the way Marcel tries to keep her by telling her she isn't able to do anything on her own - find a job, housing, etc.

I was also perplexed by the introduction of new characters again - Christiana and Asbury. I'm wondering where they fit into the story as a whole. Are they totally separate from Peter Lake/Beverly and Hardesty/Virginia? Are they added in just as another example of how two people can have instant love for each other?

I was also disgusted by Marcel and Christiana's visit to the "entertainment square", and the endless references to the poor. And then when the poor spectators were about to get rowdy, the beautiful rich people flee the poor city and they are heralded for finding such an entertaining experience. And what was the deal with the children perishing in the fire?

Anyway, so far I am still enjoying the descriptions and writing, but the instant love connections are getting a bit tiresome, as are the rigid boundaries between the rich/beautiful and the poor/desolate. As for finishing books, I very rarely fail to finish a book, so it usually does not even cross my mind to do so. If I'm not enjoying it I usually plug away more quickly so I can move on, but I always need to see how the story ends.

I'm curious to see Peter Lake reappear. I wonder how that will happen given the differences in time between the two sets of storylines. (hide spoiler)]

Ok finished part II..... I will post in a minute.

(view spoiler)[ This book for me is starting to take a nose dive. I am glad to see that Peter Lake returns in part III or it would be really hard to pick up and continue reading. I am one that does not like to stop reading a book once I start one, so I trudged along.

I am glad to see that I am not the only one that thinks that the author is a little sexist. Did he not realize that women were going to read his books?

I also enjoyed Jesse and Mrs Gamely. Everything else drove me batty, too long winded and irritating.

I am breathing a sigh of relief, because I did not want to be the only person that was struggling with Part II. :) (hide spoiler)]

I finished Part III today. It will take me longer to get through Part IV, though, since I have other reading and this part is a bit longer.

Part III: (view spoiler)[ So I see how these groups of people are slowly coming together into the same story. Again, I like Peter Lake's story and his slow realization that he was not in his own time, and how he was able to "remember" that he had mechanical abilities and got a job. Of course everyone is working for Harry Penn with the awesome pay and benefits - oh so perfect, right? Sheesh.

Anyway, I initially thought that there was to be a reincarnation story where Hardesty and Virginia were going to be revealed as Peter Lake and Beverly, but I was wrong with that guess. It's interesting how there are these people (Jackson Mead, Cecil, Peter) who die then reappear elsewhere in time. How is Peter different from Jackson? It seems this must be the first time Peter Lake has died and come back, and that's why he doesn't remember yet? But Jackson has died and come back 6 times, and he seems to be on a quest.

Now....to the quest and the theme of the story. I don't quite "get it" fully, but it seems to be along the lines of a higher power (God?) creating the earth and universe and everything all at once. Everything has already happened and all of time is instantaneous? And we don't have free will because everything that is going to happen has already happened - that is my understanding. But things are in a sort of chaos right now, and Jackson Mead is trying to set things right back to the way they were supposed to be. So...that is my quick "understanding", although I'm not quite sure I really understand. And if my understanding of the theme of the storyline is correct, then I'm getting a bit more disappointed in the book. (hide spoiler)]

Part III (view spoiler)[ Ok. I typically like Magical realism. However, I am really having a hard time with this one. I did enjoy Peter Lake with the train mechanics that could not fix the trains. Here comes Peter, a beggar in the subway teaching them a thing or two. I also see that the horse, Athansor is another character that I like..... I know, you are probably thinking, what??? I have this feeling that Athansor is a heavy contender under this magical realism/ reincarnation (kind of) story. (hide spoiler)]

Kristina wrote: "Part III [spoilers removed]" I also like Athansor and how we get to see inside his mind and how great his determination is.

Part III (view spoiler)[ The book is really trying to create a feeling of unacceptance. As you have noticed, Linda and Kristina, there are moments that are quite disquieting - the perfect newspaper business is one of them. A perfect republican model of a business adventure. The question is - why does it hardly ever work, and why are most big owners driven by greed rather than prosperity of its employees? It is also o'k, according to Helprin, to work more than 12 hours as they start work at 6 and finish at 7.30, grrrr. I wanted to throw the book across the room when I was reading this passage.
Peter Lake is definitely a redeeming character, but the way his life is portrayed aroused a feeling of aversion. He lives in the underground among the poor and the people with mental afflictions who can not hold the job, and following Helprin's logic, they seem to be enjoying this life. Geez, what kind of society is he idolizing?

Something that started so beautifully as a love story turned into an economical and political propaganda. And too many references to God. Too many. My agnostic essence is struggling with them. I have no problems when characters find God or feel the presence of God, but when one tries to prove that God exists immediately raises the red flag in my mind. There is an eternal paradox between the omnipotent and omniscient God who knows the past, the present, and the future, and the doctrine of free will that clerics say we are endowed with. Free will goes against the omniscience of god/God, but this faulty logic never confused people. Grrr.

I do like Peter Lake and Athansor, but I am afraid they will not save the book for me. Personally, I think if Helprin stopped after the first part, it would have been a brilliant novella ... (hide spoiler)]

I just finished the book. (view spoiler)[ Well, I generally like the book and how all the characters came together somewhat in the end. But I have to tell you, I was pretty disappointed by the ending, the last few pages. I'm still unsure of exactly what happened to certain people. For instance Abby came back to life, but after that it says "And then they were taken by a wind which arose suddenly and carried them up in full and triumphant faith. As they ascended, in mounting cascades, they saw that the great city about them was infinitely complex, holy, and alive. I took that to mean that Abby did not come back alive, but instead the rest of the family died while in the boat and this was the description of them going to heaven. So in the end, the family was all together. But in the epilogue it states that Abby was able to see the children being painted. So she was actually alive? So this is just one example where the ending left me confused. I am probably too literal, though, to maybe understand a story like this. Also what REALLY irritated me was that we never actually got to see Beverly again!! I wanted to scream when I read the last two paragraphs!!

I give the book 3 stars. 4 stars for the very descriptive narrative (although there is almost too much of that, so not 5 stars), 3 stars for the story overall, and 2 stars for the ending. (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[ Ok so I also finished the book and gave it 3 stars. So I thought the ending was a little weird. I had higher expectations for this book, but I am glad that I read it. Beverly, to me, was just like a force field to protect Peter and the horse was like the visual of the protector..... HMMM this is the best guess I got. The girl in me wanted to see Beverly and Peter rejoin their relationship and go up to heaven together on Athansor. I should have known that this was not going to happen, but a girl can dream.

I also thought the ending was just....blah. I mean I just read 744 pages for....this????? I did not like any of the characters, but Peter Lake and Beverly. I just could not relate to them, or feel like I could care enough to want to know.

I think that the author writes some beautiful prose. On the other hand, I really don't think I would read anything else from him. (hide spoiler)]

Thanks Linda and Zulfiya for reading along as well. I think this book would have been a lot longer to finish without you guys.

I finished a couple of days ago, and I think unanimously, it is a three-star read. We all agree here. (view spoiler)[ The finale was, as you all said, underwhelming and somehow artificial.

The only characters I cared about were Peter Lake and Beverly. Others were just space fillers.

I already commented earlier that Helprin does have an ability to create beautiful metaphors and excels at descriptions, but his sense of direction, narration, storytelling is skewed, to say the least.
The role of Jackson Mead and his ilk is not clear to me. It seems like he was trying to reach the sky by building bridges because he seems to be sent to Earth or is in exile. Is he the symbol of the angel of Dawn aka Lucifer aka Satan? If so, well, Helprin should read Bulgakov and his Master and Margarita, one of the best novels of the twentieth century that tells the story of Satan and his crew in Soviet Russia and who save the life of an author who was writing a book about Jesus Christ. Basically, I send Helprin to school to study how to write convincing stories despite the implausible premise.

And excuse me for bringing this topic into the discussion, but there was too much God in the novel, or Helprin's vision of God, and as an agnostic, I had to interpret the book as metaphoric religious fiction, and not the best one in this sense.
I also read elsewhere that this book is characterized as capitalist fantasy, and rightly so. Helprin virtually openly proselytises in his novel: the poor and the reason for their sufferings, oh-soo perfect business of a newspaper, working long hours, and do not forget - money and gaining money by occasionally dishonest methods, and they are not criticized - stealing money and gambling.

I also feel that Athansor had more potential in the novel, but unfortunately, it was never explored in the novel.
The only thing that made me give this book three stars is Helprin's writing skills and his mesmerizing, gorgeous, vibrant, occasionally even violent, and absolutely spellbinding descriptions of winter.

I read the synopsis of the movie after I finished reading the book and was not surprised at all that the movie is mostly based on the first part. This is the part I liked most and can relate to it. It has a human and humane feel to it. Others seem to be too artificial and lifeless. (view spoiler)[ (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

Thank you ladies for being my reading fellow-travellers. The journey was long, but the discussion was worthwhile.

P.S. Do we want to read anything else as a buddy read? Ideas or suggestions? I want to read The Luminaries and the book has been tantalizing me for a while.

Zulfiya wrote: "Thank you ladies for being my reading fellow-travellers. The journey was long, but the discussion was worthwhile.

P.S. Do we want to read anything else as a buddy read? Ideas or suggestions? I w..."

I read The Luminaries just last month. I would love to discuss the book with someone.

Thanks for suggesting Winter's Tale, Kristina. It had been on my radar for awhile, so it was fun to be able to read it with you gals! (view spoiler)[ As to Zulfiya's conclusions, you sum up a lot of the same things I felt but couldn't properly translate into words. I also wished Athansor was more involved towards the end. It's funny you bring up Master and Margarita because it also has been recently showing up on my radar, although I keep seeing that people find it difficult to get through, but the ones who do have found it very worthwhile.

I watched the trailer of the Winter's Tale movie and it did appear most of it focused on Beverly and Peter Lake, and I kept wondering if they left a lot of the characters out of the movie. (hide spoiler)]

The Luminaries looks like an interesting read, but I am trying to slim down the number of books I'm reading at one time - with spring here I have quite a bit of work to do outside so I don't want to over commit myself.

I've been hovering around 20% with this book. It just doesn't grab my attention. We're in the middle of home renovations any my reading time has been limited, and I find myself reaching for any other book.

So, I would like to ask, is it worth finishing? Or move on? How did everyone enjoy it? I see three stars for Zulfiya but I would like to know its strength and weaknesses.

Becky wrote: "I've been hovering around 20% with this book. It just doesn't grab my attention. We're in the middle of home renovations any my reading time has been limited, and I find myself reaching for any ot..."

My advice is that if the book isn't holding your attention now, it's not going to change later on. My 3 star rating was based on 3 stars for the story overall, 4 stars for the descriptive style of writing, and 2 stars for the ending which I was pretty disappointed with. I guess in the end I was glad I read this book, if only for the style of writing. I was more taken with the book early on, but later there are so many more characters introduced and I kept trying to figure out how they were all going to tie together, and in the end I was a bit disappointed. I was also disappointed in the messages the book was trying to convey, which I'm still not quite clear on.

I was all set to join this discussion but after reading about 20 pages, i got really bored, maybe i will try to pick up later on and i hope to like it, i will sure give it a try. In another group, most of the people who read it were really disappointed with the story, some felt like the movie was better than the book. It was interesting to see what you ladies thought of it.