The Robin Hobb Collection discussion

Fire away!

When winter’s clutch is cold and dark...
(deleted mid part of song)
...For life is meat, and death brings life.

—A song for Nighteyes and his friend, Hap Gladheart.

The song at the beginning of chapter 4 -

Is this a song for Nighteyes AND Hap? If so, who sang it?

OR, is this a song sung BY Hap FOR Nighteyes and Nighteye's unnamed friend?

Alfred wrote: "The song at the beginning of chapter 4 - "—A song for Nighteyes and his friend, Hap Gladheart".

Is this a song for Nighteyes AND Hap? If so, who sang it?

OR, is this a song sung by Hap for Night..."

A song BY Hap for Nighteyes and his 'friend'- originally sung by Hap i expect.

Scarletine wrote: "A song BY Hap for Nighteyes and his 'friend'- originally sung by Hap i expect"

My thoughts too. It fits with Bee's favorite dream about two wolves running with no care.
Edit: Just read it again, it's so clear now who sang it for whom! Damn eyes.

Whence comes the Fool and why? Chps 4 and 5 gave some of the most straightforward answers from Fool to Fitz. Such a boon from Hobb.

This wouldn’t be our exasperatedly favorite duo without their near misses also. How Fool couldn’t put two and two together about Bee, and how Fitz almost told Fool that the child he held was Bee.

A mystery revealed about the carving. It always disturbed me at the end of Fool’s Fate they never knew if the other was alive. Another near miss. Now we know Fool could feel Fitz every time Fitz touched the carving. This also made me a little mad at the Fool for the one-way communication.

Another mystery solved about the exchange of essence between the two. That has resulted in Bee’s birth, skill awareness sans silver prints, Fitz easily entering Fool to heal, Fitz mirroring Fool’s injuries… And, a long-wondered question of mine - perhaps also an exchange of abilities? Fitz may be having prophetic wolf dreams (?), Fool called a catalyst by Fool, and Fool may be forming a tentative wit bond with Motley (?).

As Fool described the journey to Clerres, I wondered (a) what happened to him after the fish ship. He avoided talking about it so I assumed the worst (raped, assaulted, prostituted etc...) (b) why did they return knowing the horrors at Clerres?? (c) who was Prilkop’s patron - too good to be true? (d) did Fool go to Kelsingra?

Am just done with the book re-read and missed this the first time round. Bizarre. In one of the last chapters, Fitz asked Fool if he’s ever been to Kelsingra, and Fool said “Not … not in person. Not as myself” . However, in chapter 4 or 5, Fool said he and Prilkop spent 5 days in Kelsingra. During that time, he took his glove off to touch the market wall and went unaccounted for days. Fool said when he remembered himself as himself, it felt like he lived a year in Kelsingra. So did he or did he not go to Kelsingra? Will throw this into the mystery box.

Alfred wrote: "Whence comes the Fool and why? Chps 4 and 5 gave some of the most straightforward answers from Fool to Fitz. Such a boon from Hobb.

This wouldn’t be our exasperatedly favorite duo without their n..."

The memory stone isn't totally one way, as Fitz also feels the Fool when he touches the bloodied carving after the messenger disappears. He sees the Fool in pain and blocks it. The Fool is being tortured or in great pain most of the time that Fitz is in Withywoods. If Fitz has any sense of this, he'd block it.

When Fitz asks the Fool if he's ever been to Kelsingra "before," I think he's talking about a time before his and the Fool's present lifetimes. Fool does remember being there before, but "not as myself." He remembers being there as a dragon, "Flying over the ocean. The musky smell of an elk when it knows it cannot escape and turns to fight."

The Fool is developing dragon memory from the dragon blood that's healing him. I think.

Ash09 wrote: "The Fool is developing dragon memory from the dragon blood.."

I don't disagree. As you said, he has dragon memories. BUT, he also physically spent 5 whole days in Kelsingra with Prilkop on way to Clerres (during which Prilkop found the butterfly cloaks). Haha, guess it doesn't matter!! We won't know for a while. It just bugged me.

Alfred wrote: "Ash09 wrote: "The Fool is developing dragon memory from the dragon blood.."

I don't disagree. As you said, he has dragon memories. BUT, he also physically spent 5 whole days in Kelsingra with Pri..."

I agree it's weird. The Fool stayed in Kelsingra for only five days, and he was unconscious for some of that time. In FQ he reaches Kelsingra before Fitz and company, and manages to get the Skill back on his hands. I think Fitz decides that the Fool knows the city much too well, and asks if he'd been in Kelsingra "before," the initial trip with Prilkop. In response, the Fool starts talking about dragon memories. He remembers being in Kelsingra before, but not as himself, which is how he knows the place well enough to go where he needs to, for the Skill.

lol I think that's what's going on :)

Does anyone remember, I think it was in the liveship traders, Amber has a converstation with a dragon, or a liveship with its dragon memories, that said it 'rememembered your people' as in the whites, and that a white had the favour of dragons?? Or is this just all my imagination? :-p

Chapters 6 & 7 - Outside of Nighteyes, no other animal has been as intriguing as Motley. Amidst wild speculations on which animal Fitz bonds with, Hobb writes an intelligent, sociable and likeable animal that does not want to bond. Brilliant!

Ironically, it is the Fool who develops a close relationship with an animal. This shift in dynamics of animal friendship shows Fitz’s descent into more isolation. From insider to outsider, Fitz becomes a mere observer of other bonds - Web/Soar, Dutiful/dog, Fool/Motley (close friendship), Per/Motley (caregiver or more?), Patience/Fleeter. Let’s have a show of hands of anyone who thinks Fitz will never bond again...

When Web first appeared in TM, I was suspicious. What is his ulterior motive? Four or five books later, it appears he has none! Other than to encourage healthy bonding, help people realize their Wit-happiness and be proudly Witted.

To me, lady K is almost as complex as Chade. There is her public persona as queen mother, the very epitome of propriety, duty and political correctness. When crazy gets crazier as many large families go, hers is the one steady voice that centers everyone. A nice counter-balance to Elliana’s-off-her-rocker-queen.

Then there is her private persona doing a different sort of quiet work for the Farseers. In FA, it was Lady K who quietly disavowed Bee's existence thus sparing the king and queen from dirtying their hands. She moves quietly through the spy network to leave clothing for the Fool (FQ) and to visit Fitz when he was recovering (TM). After the family gathered to mourn Bee and all left, it was lady K who quietly brought Fitz back to her room for personal (and much needed) ministrations. (Can’t remember book) When the duke couldn’t get funds from the king to rebuild his land after an attack, she quietly gave him her personal jewelry to sell. She poisoned Fitz at the mountains to avenge her brother (AA). Despite Dutiful’s new policy of openness, she quietly resuscitated Chade’s spy network. This is a practical woman who does what needs to be done, quietly.

Another show of hands of anyone who thinks Kettricken will bond in the next book? Here’s a wild notion of who she might eventually bond with - something needing Vit, blood and skill. Vell, Vhat do you think? It’ll be a nice family reunion.

Kettriken must be really old by now. Wasn't she in her early 20's when she married, and Fitz is in his 60's- she must be in her mid/late sixties...and she had no skill. Has she been kept young by skill treatments? I agree she is a really intriguing character. On one level I just don't get how she could not take a new lover- she appears to have spent most of her life alone and that is really sad. But on another level it's old school romantic for one's love to die and never take another to one's bed.
Kettriken has alot of secrets and is the epitomy of discretion...knowing all those years that it was Fitz that shared her bed...yet she never told him she knew, and never persued him for a second go! :-) Yet clearly loves him. (He could have married her and become king if she had wanted it)

Scarletine wrote: "Kettriken must be really old by now. Wasn't she in her early 20's when she married, and Fitz is in his 60's- she must be in her mid/late sixties...and she had no skill. Has she been kept young by s..."

You're right; she's in her early 60s, and there's no evidence that she's been using Skill treatments--she has wrinkles and grey hair, anyway, according to Fitz. If she's going to bond with an animal, it has to be soon.

Re Kettricken and a lover: She's politically savvy, and she's the true queen, as Elliania spends half her time at her matriarchal paradise. Having a secret lover would compromise Kettricken's position, and marriage would create political complications which she might not want to deal with. So long as she is single, she remains the power behind the throne.

Scarletine wrote: "...she appears to have spent most of her life alone and that is really sad. But on another level it's old school romantic for one's love to die and never take another to one's bed"

Hers is the true tragic love story! Even when Fitz was pining for Molly, he was never shy about bedding someone else. It always seems like he treats Kettricken as surrogate sister, although she may feel more than platonic love towards him.

I agree with Ash09 that she lives "au naturel". Kind of like Molly. Age and die. Perhaps she does not want a long life because it prolongs the loneliness. Esp. now that Dutiful is all grown up and there are Farseer heirs aplenty.

Say, does anyone know what Chade's sigil is? Somewhere in chp 4 to 7, Fitz noticed the tapestry in his room was changed from elderling & dragon to two bucks in battle. Is it a foretelling of power struggle among the Farseers? Prince Proper vs Prince Integrity? Maybe Chade/Shun vs Dutiful's line? I can't see Fitz fighting for the throne. As Scarletine said, if Fitz was more ambitious he would have taken advantage of Kettricken's loneliness to marry her and become king.

ita Kettricken and Molly chose to age naturally and Molly refused Skill healings. When he's healing Chade, Fitz is careful not to overdo it, despite the fact that he knows Chade would want him to--Chade is OLD. He's got aches and pains. Why not heal as much as possible, so long as his body is capable of dealing with it?

I don't get that. In Farseer universe, magic=science. Skill healing is the equivalent of antibiotics and surgery. Some capable skill users could be trained in healing and herbs, and sent off to help people who are sick and dying. Why would people be so hell bent on sticking to the life expectancy of a medieval age? Molly dies in her mid-sixties, of a heart attack, I think. That's something Fitz could have fixed with the Skill. I think we're meant to see Molly as a noble, earthy figure for choosing this path, but her choice leaves her helpless daughter alone with an even more helpless Fitz. If a mother with a 9 year old daughter refused surgery that could save her life, no one today would consider it a noble choice, and I'm not sure why I'm supposed to think that in the novels.

Ash09 wrote: "ita Kettricken and Molly chose to age naturally and Molly refused Skill healings. ..."

From a practical standpoint, I supposed the skill is still not fully understood, therefore not employed on everyone. It also requires a lot of energy hence the use of whole coteries to perform a healing and only if a person has enough reserves. To us, it's medical science because we are witness to hundreds of years of cure due to science. To these folks at Buck Keep, the organized use of skill to heal was a lost art until the last few decades, and perhaps only available to the royalty. Kelsingra, for goodness sake - place abundant with skill - is in the dark ages on healing.

From a philosophical standpoint... I guess it all boils down to individual choice. Thick is aging too but he prefers not to apply the skill on himself. I don't think he has a specific reason other than it was not right for him. For Kettricken, well, maybe she does not want to avail herself to skill healing when her common subjects could not also. Part of being Sacrifice. As for Molly... I agree she is like mother earth, all organic. She probably did not expect to die so quickly and leaving a young child behind.

On a side thought, it seems to me that Molly avoids knowing about Wit and Skill. Ask no questions and pretend things are normal. I don't recall anywhere where she expressed curiosity or wonder about a magic that afflicts most of her loved ones.

Alfred wrote: "Ash09 wrote: "ita Kettricken and Molly chose to age naturally and Molly refused Skill healings. ..."

From a practical standpoint, I supposed the skill is still not fully understood, therefore not ..."

True, no one knows very much about Skill, Wit, and healing. You'd think that once they figured out these can heal, even resurrect, they'd make learning about these aspects of the magics a priority.

I can't figure out how much Molly knows. She resents Fitz's trips to Buckkeep. She knows his identity, knows something of his history. She doesn't get to make major decisions, though, as people make assumptions about her, or hide things from her. Fitz assumes she'd never accept Nighteyes, without asking her. The Fool assumes she'd never accept him, again without asking her. Fitz hides one trip to Buckkeep a secret from her, and declines Chade's offer of a stay, without asking her. Is he certain that she'd refuse such a stay? She would be closer to some of her children, and both she and Bee would be safer. Of course, Molly doesn't know that safety is an issue, as Fitz never tells her about the messenger who was waylaid in her own house. He never asks her input about hiring guards. Given Fitz's secrets, Molly may have asked about the Skill and the Wit, and received an incomplete answer.

She gets to be the tacked on happy/unhappy ending for Fool's Fate, then she plays the beloved earth mother, then she dies, then the plot gets going. If this were a film, hers would be a thankless role.

Ash09 wrote: "She gets to be the tacked on happy/unhappy ending for Fool's Fate, then she plays the beloved earth mother, then she dies, then the plot gets going. If this were a film, hers would be a thankless role."

Haha.. you're on point here. Molly's character was written to showcase Fitz, all of his good, bad and idiocy.

I am one of those people annoyed at the end of Fool's Fate. Felt too rushed and convenient, and unresolved. My deep fear is next book 3 (sounds like a HUGE volume in the making) will have a rushed ending too.

Thankfully FA/FQ have redeemed the story, but Hobb may have lost a lot of reader momentum in the 11-year gap between FF and FA.

I hope more people are reading Hobb, and I tell everyone I know to read her! She is superbly better story teller than some of the more hyped epic fantasy authors (Sanderson, Rothfuss, Lynch - all amazingly good but Hobb is better, my opinion)

Alfred wrote: "I am one of those people annoyed at the end of Fool's Fate. Felt too rushed and convenient, and unresolved. My deep fear is next book 3 (sounds like a HUGE volume in the making) will have a rushed ending too.

Thankfully FA/FQ have redeemed the story, but Hobb may have lost a lot of reader momentum in the 11-year gap between FF and FA. "

Yeah, I worry about loss of momentum for Hobb, too. I ran into these books just a few months ago, and went directly from FF to FA. That meant I didn't spend a decade believing the FF ending was a final, happy one; lol I didn't spend a minute. If I'd finished FF ten years ago, I probably would have been too pissed to pick up FA. The beginning of FA makes total sense as a follow up from FF, which then doesn't read like a tacked on happy ending, keeping Fitz safely dead straight.

Anyhow, FQ is great. Trying to figure out if Dwalia wanted to provoke the mercenaries, as the escape through the pillars saved her from Fitz's wrath. The way it's written, she's missing too many cues from Ellik, and she can't be that dense. That would be past chapter 7, though.

Up to Chapter 7...hm.

I'm about to start on Liveships. I love sailing, the sea, and love Patrick O'Brian, so can't wait.

Ash09 wrote: "I'm about to start on Liveships. I love sailing, the sea, and love Patrick O'Brian, so can't wait."

So much of what is spoken about in FQ will come into focus when you read Liveships and The rainwild chroncicles. I love how Hobb has interwined the histories.

Alfred wrote: "Ash09 wrote: "She gets to be the tacked on happy/unhappy ending for Fool's Fate, then she plays the beloved earth mother, then she dies, then the plot gets going. If this were a film, hers would be..."

Yes, Molly was written to showcase Fitz. But at the same time, it's not just authorial neglect: it's also partly I think that Fitz IS narcissistic, controlling, manipulative and paranoid. He never fully appreciates Molly - or at least he never appreciates her fully for herself, only for what she is to him (an opportunity to feel safe and loved - I wonder how much of her non-curiosity is real, and how much is just that she knows there are things she can't ask him about without pushing him away, or pushing him into depression).

Seriously, most of the time she is like a construct of his imagination, "young Molly in the red skirt." The real Molly, isn't really that interesting to him, until he has to deal with loss and regret. He shuts her out, shares little to nothing significant with her, and then is bored! What a mess. Not to sound like a misandrist, but he is a very typical man in that sense. She is never so interesting to him as when she just out of reach.

Oshun wrote: "Seriously, most of the time she is like a construct of his imagination, "young Molly in the red skirt." The real Molly, isn't really that interesting to him, until he has to deal with loss and regr..."

I agree, and i never understood why Molly agreed to rekindle their relationship. Molly and Fitz were just a couple of teenagers fooling around, and when it got serious- when Molly found out what Fitz really did for a living, and that she was pregnant, she ran away.

I always wondered, what sane woman would, years later, allow a man who she know's is basically a mass murderer into her house with all those kids?

Fitz lived with the 'molly and her red skirts' fantasy like a guy yearning for his unobtainable pin up. But in reality, they had little in common. Fitz dumbed himself down to fit into her life when they went to Withywoods. He fell into a deep depression and denied his own history and love...the fool, in order to live a fantasy life that did not make him happy.

I was so relieved when Molly was out of the picture, leaving Fitz free to find himself again.

Fitz dumbed himself down to fit into her life when they went to Withywoods. He fell into a deep depression and denied his own history and love...the fool, in order to live a fantasy life that did not make him happy.

It kind of felt like that to me also. But I thought about it a lot, but decided that Fitz and Molly really had very little in common. I didn't know whether to blame Fitz or the author that I never identified with Molly. I felt like I "should" but it did not "take."

Molly doesn't "run away"... she is guided to a safe place by trusted elders once she and they realise that her daughter is otherwise likely to be murdered.

I don't think Fitz dumbs himself down - if anything, quite the opposite, he seems a much more well-rounded and fulfilled person with Molly than he does otherwise. But he does try to control his darkness around her, sublimating it into more productive activities.

He doesn't fall into deep depression with her. He's always been prone to depression, throughout his life, and no doubt that isn't cured overnight by entering into a mature, fulfilling relationship. But for the most part he's very happy. He's in a deep depression in FQ because Molly has died, not because she was alive.

Molly takes him back because she never thought they were just 'fooling around' (she wouldn't have had his child if she had thought that, I don't think). She was madly in love with him, just as he was with her. The love of her life comes back into her life, not just looking to get back together but offering to provide something of a father-figure to her suddenly fatherless children - and providing a way to keep the other man she loved alive in her heart. [Molly was never in love with Burrich, but she did love him. Fitz also loved him. I think there can be a powerful attraction toward those who can help you share memories of a loved person or place or time that you have lost.] Yes, Fitz did bad things... but he did them for good reasons (this is a violent and military culture... there are plenty of people in the six duchies married to soldiers, or to those who had to kill in the red ships war, or the rebellion against regal, etc)... so she's wary at first of him, but doesn't condemn him out of hand on those grounds.

Wastrel wrote: "I don't think Fitz dumbs himself down -..."

Ditto. Quoting the famous line at the end of FF, "I am content". At that juncture in time, he had just come off a complicated life, torture, near death and loss of loved ones. Was he selfish for wanting a home, family, simple love - all the things that Molly represented? Well, he has earned the right to be selfish.

(In the same consideration, is Fitz selfish for not healing the Fool's eyesight at the cost of losing his own? Is he selfish for not sharing with the Fool, Bee's journals which are only personal things he has of his deceased beloved daughter? It's his right and it's alright by me).

Marriage isn't about passion all the time (which is what a love life with the Fool would imply). It's also about the mundane and tolerating your wife's fashion sense or your husband’s man-cave with musty scrolls. The beginning chapter of FA nicely captured the domestic loving interplay between Fitz and Molly - she nags him about old clothes, she insists he wears the dreaded Jamaillian pantaloons for the party, he humors her and tries to sneak in some loving, she playfully swats him off, and he then rushes off to give her the first dance because it mattered to Molly - and gave no thought of meeting the Pale Messenger with the urgent message because Molly was more important. Despite Fitz’s faults, I get the impression that Molly was content with Fitz.

Fitz may not be model husband. However, he was loyal and faithful to Molly, and he doted on her - in spite of the heart’s hole left by Fool. He’s a 60 year old with the looks, body and stamina of a 35 year old who desires her 63 year old body like she was Molly in the red skirts. For some women, that's all that's needed for marital bliss. Why not Molly? Fitz has secrets yes, but many people keep part of themselves private even from loved ones. Is that truly deception? Molly want not want to know his soul mate was not her but a wolf. She may not want to know that the only time he felt complete as one was in joining with Fool. Ignorance can be bliss. Molly has a home, family, a seemingly loving husband. Sometimes face value is enough to be happy.

Sorry, this is just a long-winded way of saying they did love each other. Maybe not perfect soul-searing, soul-mating sexy Skill love, but love nonetheless in flawed human ways.

I actually like this comment a lot and think it contains some very important points, although I have not been overwhelmed by the Fitz/Molly story thread.

The following is true and significant (makes Fitz more sympathetic):

"Fitz may not be model husband. However, he was loyal and faithful to Molly, and he doted on her - in spite of the heart’s hole left by Fool. He’s a 60 year old with the looks, body and stamina of a 35 year old who desires her 63 year old body like she was Molly in the red skirts."

Oshun wrote: "The following is true and significant (makes Fitz more sympathetic..."

Haha, this guy gets so much flak just because we know what's in his head. If I look deep into my head, I'll beat me up too!

Sooo... anyone ready to switch to chps 8 to 11? (Goodness. Wastrel your impassioned post on Starling made my head spin! Still reeling from it)

It's true that Fitz is, as it were, more exposed in some ways. But, as i've suggested here and in that Starling post (I didn't think it was impassioned, but maybe that's just my default setting?), he is also protected by his role as POV. We see everything through his eyes, and his superficial errors I think distract us from his more fundamental errors. We're so busy telling him not to beat himself up over his imaginary flaws, we maybe don't immediately notice all the flaws that Fitz doesn't notice himself but maybe should...

[Don't get me wrong, I do love Fitz as a character. But I think Hobb is trying to create a very flawed and human character.]

Wastrel wrote: "..I didn't think it was impassioned, but maybe that's just my default setting?), ..."

Impassioned is good! Much better than the contrary. You have a good point about Fitz’s POV doing him a disservice (grammar help?). His self-assessed errors are either amplified or diminished. Probably one of many great reasons for having Bee’s counterpoint POV.

Fitz's POV also influences our perspective on other characters. To liberally borrow some words from your post - We see everything through his eyes, and Other Characters’ superficial errors I think distract us from Their more fundamental errors. We're so busy telling him not to beat himself up over his imaginary flaws, we maybe don't immediately notice all the flaws that Fitz doesn't notice himself About Other Characters but maybe should…

Like...Chade is a psychopath (you called it!), Molly a controlling bitch, Kettricken a mary sue, Bee a sham (her visions are a child’s imaginings), Starling a saint, Motley is Nighteyes incarnate, Spark a boy (no one checked..), Ash a split personality, and the Fool, is ah, a mere fool.

Actually, despite having called Chade a psychopath before, now I'm not completely sure... it's just that when I went back and read that Fitz-Starling scene where they break up, I saw that Fitz and Starling have quite different views of Chade.

Fitz, you see, thinks that Chade was plotting to secretly murder him, and that Starling was part of the assassination plot. Starling thinks that Fitz doesn't understand Chade in the slightest. At the time, I always just assumed that Fitz was right - well, maybe that he was exaggerating a bit, that Chade hadn't really been on the verge of killing 'his boy', but at least that he was basically right about Chade's character, including that ruthlesness.

But was Fitz right? Because when you say it out loud, it sort of sounds like crazy talk... and then when you read FQ and see how Chade cares for Shun and Lant, or even petty and personal things like murdering the guy who killed Ash's mother (iirc? or did I imagine that he'd done that?), that sort of paints a different picture. Perhaps an equally sociopathic and deadly picture, but a less brutally cold and ruthless one than Fitz imagines, I think. When we get right down to it: Fitz believes, or at least used to believe, that Chade would murder him for the good of the realm. Do we believe that? I'm not sure I do... [or maybe Chade has simply softened in old age...]

And now I wonder whether this is just a fear of Chade instilled in childhood, and whether it's an intentional part of Chade's disguise toward him...

Wastrel wrote: "But was Fitz right? Because when you say it out loud, it sort of sounds like crazy talk..."

The question is where Chade’s loyalty lies. Is it with whomever the current king is, or to Shrewd and offsprings, or to his own seeds? The answer to that is the answer to your question about whether Chade can kill Fitz.

Fifty Chades of Buck Keep blue - psychopath, sociopath, loyalist or protective parent? Will the real Chade McCoy please stand up? The Chade today is not the Chade in Fitz’s youth. The difference – he is now a parent. Being a parent changed his loyalties and motivations. That makes him more irrationally ruthless now than before, not the reverse I think...

You are dead right (no pun intended!) - I think Chade did murder the guy who killed Ash’s mother and maybe Shun’s stepfather and maybe Lant’s stepmother and ?? What happened to his stepfather after he was sent away? Maybe a bag of bones at the farm?? Chade cared nothing for the plight of Withywood-ers as long as he gets intel on Shun.

As an assassin in the old days, his life belonged to Shrewd to dispense the king’s justice. It was a role that gave his life purpose and power, albeit from behind the throne. He accepted that because he never expected to come out from the shadows, never to have children, never to have any shot at the throne being a hidden bastard and all. The Fallstar name would have ended with Chade.

Fast forward 60 years, he is none of those things. He is more. He is skilled. He is openly the king’s advisor. He is meting his own personal justice. He is a parent with a legacy to pass to Lant and Shun. There will be a next generation of Fallstars. Shun being powerfully skilled makes Chade so proud as he deeply, deeply resented being denied training. I think as he withers away in FQ, he will channel his last bursts of energy into super-training Shun. Shun’s powerful Skill + assassin training + Farseer blood + rape victim rage + incestuous trauma + possibly sociopathic genes = lethal combination = a deadly future contender for the throne.

The old Chade instilled a deep psychological belief in Fitz that he will get killed if he got in the way of the king. Maybe this was only meant as mind-control..but no real threat since Chade loved Fitz as a son.

The new Chade I think will kill Fitz if he got in the way of his real son and daughter.

I'm not so sure on the last... I think Chade sees Fitz as his real son too. [Remember how much of these books is about fictive fatherhood. Fitz's three dads - Burrich, Verity, Chade - and his three children (before Bee) - Dutiful, Hap, Nettle - and Nettle's other father Burrich.] I think Chade is less likely to murder Fitz now than when he was younger.


But now you've gotten me worried. I've been concerned about Rosemary... maybe we should be worried about Chade instead? Either Chade alone or Chade + Shun. Especially if Fitz dies and Chade survives, because Fitz's phantom authority as shadow-king has maybe been all that's forced Chade to give up power to Kettricken.

...it would certainly be awesome if the whole cycle was going from Chade as mentor to Chade as the big bad villain... (!)

...but I don't think it'll happen. We've only got, in theory, one more book to go, and I can't see how she can squeeze in a meaningful Buckkeep plot while wrapping up Kelsingra AND taking down Clerres via a stop-off in Whortleberry. [Incidentally... stupid name. All the other names in that region are strange and exotic, and then you have a Six Duchies fruit name for Whortleberry. Why!?]

Which is weird, because she does look to be setting up threads there. An 'epilogue' that ends up being book-length? A future series?

What really worries me is that the idea of getting Bee to carry on the series is brilliant, but is seemingly ruled out by her own prophecies, in which 'her time' ends with the death of her father, which presumably is in the next book. Maybe she's going to be a protagonist but not a prophet?

Damn it Margaret! Why can't you write anything that your fans want you to write! Every time we want something, you twist off in another direction!

...it would certainly be awesome if the whole cycle was going from Chade as mentor to Chade as the big bad villain... (!)

...but I don't think it'll happen.

I don't think it will happen and I don't think it would be awesome. That would be a terrible disappointment at this point. And do not think Chade is going to live forever.

The author ('real' name Margaret Ogden).

Wastrel wrote: "I'm not so sure on the last... I think Chade sees Fitz as his real son too. [Remember how much of these books is about fictive fatherhood..."

That’s true.... The fatherhood theme does run throughout the series. This would be the perfect set -up for a 5 hanky worthy drama of ultimate betrayal - father vs the son! It does not mean Chade turns “villain” as he does love Fitz as a son as you said. Chade would be highly, highly, highly conflicted and sad, sad, sad but if he has to choose between his ambitious legacy for his kids and Fitz’s life….. This is all extrapolation anyway!

Little Miss ShunShine has so much potential as a highly complex dark character, with all the right “ingredients” of skill, blood, anger - much too juicy for Hobb to pass up? I am thinking Hobb will bring the Fitz story full circle back to Buck Keep. In Farseer, we saw the strife created by Regal in Buck Keep to win the throne. Vendetta of royal prince vs the bastard. Then the story moves on to Aslevjal, Chortlemerry, then Clerres... and back home to Buck Keep. A different royal prince (Prosper, Integrity or Fitz, how ironic) vs a different bastard. How all this could fit in one book - haha…! (mad desperate laugh) Whoever said Bee’s prophecy must be fulfilled in the next book?! How about another trilogy?

Rosemary is so “obviously” the villain, but is she?? The woman made like one cameo or two. The negative reader impression of Rosemary is created mostly by two sources - Chade crying fowl about too much rosemary in his poultry dinner, and Ash’s word that he is not liked by Rosemary, and Fitz’s consistent uneasiness about her. Chade and Ash are in cahoots, given he’s her/his (former) master and all. Dutiful, K, Nettle, Riddle expressed no concerns but maybe they are just easily duped.

(Oohh.. how about Rosemary & Motley! (wrong post, but u know what I mean). Who were Rosemary’s parents? Any tainted Farseer blood there?)

So many new or nearly new characters for a last book in a series which already had a cast of hundreds.

Rosemary/Motley (err... that's wit-bonding, not shipping!) would be... very, very interesting. Maybe frightening (Rosemary having her eye on them all...) - or maybe reassuring (since Motley doesn't seem bad... but then, if Rosemary's a wrong'un, she's not going to advertise it).


Re: Chade as antagonist: I'd assume that if it did happen it would be indirect. But... Chade killing Fitz would be a stunning way to end Fitz's story. Don't think she'll go there, but aside from it being a five-hankey twist, it would also set up some really twisty angsty future plotlines for Bee, Nettle, Shun, etc.

If only Hobb didn't write in such a way that it was impossible to tell which bits were fundamental plot developments that set up the next ten books, and which bits are throwaway moments of no consequence whatsoever. E.g. the stable-girl and the horse... important future characters, or never to be seen again!?

I think either Hobb is going to wrap everything up much, much too quickly in the next book / two books (I really doubt she'll do it in one)... or else there's going to be a whole heap of things we want to read more about but won't get back to for another five years, if ever...

Wastrel wrote: "Rosemary/Motley (err... that's wit-bonding, not shipping!) would be... very, very interesting. ..."

Haha. Also probability of zero to none! I know, Rosemotley is unlikely, thought I'll throw it out there for self-entertainment. A Chade twist would completely changed the dynamics of the Happy Family in Buck Keep! I'll bet you 10 bucks (Buck currency, geddit??) it'll happen.

I agree she has a zillion potential mini moments that could become actual stories. The irony is the main plot actually progressed very little. Bee remains kidnapped and Fitz has only just begun the journey to Clerres.

We should start a petition to Hobb or her publishers to break the last book into 2! I'll take that over another rushed ending like FF, which marred an otherwise awesome trilogy. No... No 5 year wait please..! I am tired of having mid-book/series crisis. (GRRM you hear me??)

Someone who has spent their entire lives in - and metaphorically protecting - shadows and darkness. And who names their daughter 'shine'.

Naming seems pretty all over the place, to be honest. You've got those virtue names, particularly among the upper classes, but you've also got plant/animal/etc names like Holly and Web and Bee, and traditional European names like Rolf and Molly, and then things like 'Chade', 'Burrich', 'Gildast' and 'Jinna'.