The Robin Hobb Collection discussion

Off we go!

Alfred wrote: "Scarletine wrote: "Off we go!"

Thanks! I think royally screwed up the discussions. (did I say I am technologically challenged?). Let me go delete the other excessive topics."

I never saw any other topics? Where on earth did you put them Lol. :-)

Chp 8 - A P P L A U S E.. ! For Fitz!

Fitz's vindication is a highlight for me in FQ. After sacrificing in secret for the Farseers, Fitz is rewarded with what he has been subconsciously craving - recognition, acceptance and adulation. This is analogous to readers being rewarded for sticking through 15 books.

Still, old habits die hard. Fitz remains paranoid about people attacking him after his reveal. I don't get why he's afraid folks will find out about the Badgerlock identity...They can always cook up more explanations.

I agree with Junie, never liked Starling. Am glad there was no interaction between her and Fitz. He's moved on from her, and so have I.

So, here's a diabolical thought regarding Chade (this thought may also self-combust) - isn't the timing suspicious - for Chade to reveal Fitz's true identity now, and for Chade to reveal the sword-forged crown from Verity only now? Is this coincidental or planned? Fitz said it would have meant a lot to him to have known long ago about Verity's will for Fitz to protect the family or to step in as king if necessary. Did Shrewd really die of illness or was he... poisoned?

This is analogous to readers being rewarded for sticking through 15 books.

Seriously!

I am not sure why people dislike Starling. She actually did a lot of good things for Fitz. But he was so self-absorbed and preoccupied that he simply did not notice that she did nothing that was either out of character or against her own standards. He based his trust and expectations of her on not really paying attention to who she was and how her mind worked.

Alfred wrote: "Chp 8 - A P P L A U S E.. ! For Fitz!

Fitz's vindication is a highlight for me in FQ. After sacrificing in secret for the Farseers, Fitz is rewarded with what he has been subconsciously craving..."

I always thought Shrewd was posioned. I think Regal was trying to off his dad and take the throne. If Shrewd's brain hadn't been addled with drugs, and whatever freaky stuff they were burning in his room, he could have used his skill to help fight his tumour. At that point they still had most of the skill scrolls with info on how to heal. (Before Regal sold them off to the pale woman) That reminds me that Fool was not affected by breathing in the drugs. Hmmm...

I couldn't stand Starling. She met Fitz with an agenda and manipulated him into a sexual relationship he really wasn't too fussed about. She offered him a little comfort once in a while to keep him on side...and then went and got herself a young Lord. She never really loved Fitz and he never loved her. But Fitz was always a one woman man, always faithful. any 'good things' Starling did for Fitz were for her own benefit somewhere along the line.

I've certainly been frustrated with Starling in the past, but I can't see anything that she's done that's particularly wrong. It's Fitz who I think is rather unlikeable in his relationship with her: not wanting to care about her, but wanting her to belong to him and him alone - not willing to offer a life with him (not that she'd have taken it) but angry that she might want to pursue a life with anyone else.

She spent 15 years supporting him in his state of hermitage, at least in part altruistically (Fitz, the eternal narcissist, thinks it's partly because she likes being associated with his legend, but even he doesn't think that's the whole of the reason). She kept his secret for, what, 40 years? When she could have had fame and fortune and whatever she wanted at any time - sacrificing not only temporary success but, as she believed, her artistic immortality to protect him.

She's not unimpeachable. Iirc, she spent a little while cheating on her husband, before finally deciding to commit to him. But I would feel uncomfortable hating a woman for her promiscuity.

Especially since in this case we're talking about a deeply traumatised serial rape victim. I think it's only reasonable to be a little lenient when she shows some issues around sex and intimacy and commitment - she doesn't just exist to serve Fitz's needs (or her husband's), she's a complicated person who is fighting her own battles.

Regarding Nettle, incidentally: sure, Fitz, the eternal narcissist, sees this as "Starling betrayed me!", because for him, everything is about him. But that's not how Starling sees it. From Starling's point of view, she is:
a) serving her queen faithfully and not commiting treason by intentionally conspiring against her will;
b) serving her country - given the situation, the Six Duchies desparately need a spare Farseer heir in case anything goes wrong - and you can bet that if it ever became necessary, Fitz would sacrifice Starling for The Good of the Realm in a heartbeat;
c) doing the right thing by Nettle! Remember, Fitz may have grown up in a stable, but it was still to some degree a sheltered and privileged life. Fitz idolises escape from the world of courts and kings, thinks nothing could be better for Nettle than growing up a peasant girl on a farm somewhere (or, perhaps more to the point, he wants to achieve escape vicariously through his daughter, insisting that she fulfill HIS ambition). Starling, on the other hand, has firsthand experience of poverty, hunger, rape, violence and all the insecurities that come from NOT having all the privilege that Fitz resents and wants to 'save' his daughter from. From her point of view, of course Nettle would be better off being a princess. Not to mention being introduced to her loving family and being told some measure of truth about her own history. [And Nettle's later sentiments don't appear to support Fitz's side of that argument, do they?]

Of course, Starling doesn't have Fitz's experiences either, and she doesn't understand the difficulties of being part of the ruling elite, just as he doesn't really understand the difficulties of NOT being part of the ruling elite. It's hard to say who is "right", here. But I do think it's wrong to unquestioning accept Fitz's interpretation of this as being purely a matter of her being disobediant and disloyal toward him.

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Starling didn't "manipulate" Fitz in the slightest. She offered him easy sex and he took it - let's not take away his responsibility for his choices and paint the rape victim as an evil, manipulative temptress. What actually happened? They met at Fitz's cottage, she kissed him, she led him to his bed, he followed, they had sex. Even Fitz admits "I wondered if she had planned it that way. Probably not."

Fitz, of course, claims absolutely no responsibility for anything: "When I turned to her embrace, she was naked and waiting. I made no decision. The joining had happened between us in much the same way was night falls upon the land." Come off it, Fitz! When he finds out she's married, naturally he gets pissed off that she's been keeping secrets from him - while she points out that he's been living two lives too. [He wants Hap to tell him about Starling and Starling to tell him about Hap, but he's perfectly happy lying to Hap his whole life].
His main objection, though? When she tries to hug him (she reassures him that she accepts his Wit, she kisses him gently on the cheek, and tries to hug him from behind), after he's found out about the other man, he refuses because "You are not mine." Everything and everyone in his life has to be his... he even gets pissed off that Starling has been getting to know Molly and Nettle behind his back - he wants Starling to be his and his alone, and Molly and her family to be his and his alone, and he hates the slightest suggestion that his different lives might interact with one another like real people rather than dolls he poses... Fitz isn't just a narcissist, he's a master-manipulator, and he gets distressed whenever it seems like someone might be able to escape his webs of manipulation.

And yeah, Starling comes out of that exchange pretty badly too. Yes, she has a point when she says "Nor am I his. I belong to myself, and I shall decide who shares my body." But she's wrong to cheat on her husband, and although she never promised fidelity to Fitz it would have been best to be clearer with him.

But at the same time, you can understand where she's coming from. Her experiences of rape and torture have been formative for her, and that insistence - that SHE will decide who she has sex with, and that she is NOT any man's possession - has become central to her identity... which is why Fitz saying "you're not mine" (with the implication 'anymore') sends her from gentle affection to blazing rage in an instant (and likewise she gets quite nasty toward Hap over his betrayal - because Fitz's issues around safety and loyalty and abandonment are nothing compared to Starling's!).

But it's not that Starling doesn't care about others, but that her desparation leads her to create excuses for herself. She doesn't need to tell either man about the other, she reasons, because what they don't know can't hurt them. Fitz should be familiar with that excuse, since it sums up his entire approach to life. Plus, she reasons that it's not really adultery when there's no chance of bearing the other man's child (since being gang-raped has, she believes, permanently destroyed her ability to have children, which in turn has left her paranoid about abandonment (why would anyone stay with her when she can't provide a family, and hence can never be more than a glorified prostitute or friend-with-benefits?) and about mortality (she cannot have a living legacy so feels she needs to create a legacy through her work)). She's deluding herself as much as them.

So yeah, she's not perfect. Far from it: she's a badly damaged, desparate, difficult woman. Fitz, of course, has no interest in any of that: to him, either she's exactly how he wants her to be, or she's secretly been a villain all along. When she gets angry and mean, he just sees that as revealing her inferior character, rather than ever asking what causes the anger or whether he could help assuage it.

In many ways, Fitz and Starling are a perfectly-matched couple. Fitz, of course, would never admit that, because he always sees himself as superior to those around him, and always downplays the parallels that his author has written into his situation...

I wasn't trying to "blame" anybody... quite the contrary. I'm not sure that's what Hobb is interested in (other than the Evil Moustache-Twirling Villains, of course...)

Wastrel wrote: "I wasn't trying to "blame" anybody... quite the contrary. I'm not sure that's what Hobb is interested in (other than the Evil Moustache-Twirling Villains, of course...)"

I totally agree that the author, in this case, not being into "blaming." She very much enjoys presenting us with nuanced, complicated characters. All good or all bad are not interesting to her--except the very few "Evil Moustache-Twirling Villains" required to keep the pot bubbling.

Yay it's Fri! Chp 9 is a big chapter with lots going on.

This seems a recurring theme throughout the book - after the big coming out party, Ash asked Fitz if he ever wanted to be king, to have that big moment. Fitz lied and said no. Then Fool asked Fitz the same question about wanting to be king, and Fitz lied again. There might be another instance later in book where he lied about this too. Where do you think Hobb is leading with this?

Fitz had an interesting observation about Motley coming down the stairs like a "queen". Hmm. Is Motley already bonded with a queen - Kettricken, Elliana, or maybe some dead queen living in Motley.

Fityzy’s ooze-y wounds from the Fool are not healing fast. A couple times in the book, he complained of aches and noticed gray in his beard in one of the end chapters. That’s worrisome because I was counting on Fitz to heal fast and live very long ala Kettle, because dammit, I want another 15 books on Fitz.

So, the attempt to heal Fool’s eyesight. The Fool’s hands guiding Fitz’s hands slowly and in painstaking detail all over his face is a chastely intimate moment (oxymoron!) reminiscent of the scene in Ghost with Demi Moore and Patrick Swayze sculpting clay! I liked that Fitz finally asked the most direct question ever to Fool about sex, or rather if Fool had lain with a woman. Obviously, Fitz thinks the Fool a man even though Fitz was circumspect about the Fool’s gender when queried by Kettricken in earlier chapters. The Fool remains as exasperating as ever with a non-answer and some bullshit about it being obvious but Fitz you’re not listening.

One of these days I shall start a topic on reasons why we should hypothetically hate the Fool.

... yeah, he is kind of a wanker. In real life, most people he met would have punched him within the first ten minutes...

...plus, you know, his Grand Plan is to turn humanity into snack food for giant acid-breathing lizard overlords, because, apparently, people just deserve it. Which when you say it out loud like that suddenly doesn't sound entirely like he's the good guy in this story...

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Ooh, Motley bonded to Kettricken! I'd never thought of that. I don't think it's true - I don't think K would spy on them like that, and I think Fitz would be able to tell anyway - but it would sort of fit in some ways.

And I'd forgotten Kettle. Did we ever find out why she couldn't die exactly? Was it just plain normal skill-healing (somebody should have interviewed her on a whole bunch of 'lost' skill topics while they had the chance...)

Wastrel wrote: "... yeah, he is kind of a wanker. In real life, most people he met would have punched him within the first ten minutes..."

I am fan of the Fool and I wanna punch him! When Civil Bresinga pummeled the Fool in FF, I imagined all the Fool-haters out there cheering!

Kettle has strong skills.. I think, so she was able to prolong her life but she did age.

Wastrel wrote: "... yeah, he is kind of a wanker. In real life, most people he met would have punched him within the first ten minutes...

...plus, you know, his Grand Plan is to turn humanity into snack food for ..."

Oh I love the Fool, and yes he's a total, total wanker. Fitz isn't a wanker, but he's an endlessly self-pitying narcissist who lies to himself and to others, all the time, so imo these two belong together.

Damn you, Hobb. I want my slash!

The scene in chapter 8 totally threw me, as I didn't expect anything so happy as that. Starling sings a heroic song. A tearful Chade leads Fitz up to the stage, and it so happens that Fitz is in the perfect costume. Everyone claps. Then Fitz gets a crown, and Verity's will, making him regent and potentially heir. It's TOO happy, and remained too happy for me, despite Fitz's discovery of Bee's disappearance. tbh, that was the only part of FQ I didn't like.

Ash09 wrote: "It's TOO happy, and remained too happy for me, despite Fitz's discovery of Bee's disappearance. tbh, that was the only part of FQ I didn't like..."

I'm so with you on this. FQ is like fanfic dream come true. It's like a gift from Hobb to rewards fans for sticking through 15 books... before she drops the hatchet in book 3! We get lulled into this false sense of security or happiness or fanfic satisfaction. I think Hobb will be ruthless with the characters in book 3. Be afraid, be very afraid!

Alfred wrote: Be afraid, be very afraid!

I am terrified. Hobb has already put Fitz through loss of family/childhood under threat of death/torture/death/resurrection/numerous surgeries without anesthesia/ptsd/loss of three bond animals, widowhood, loss of daughter. The Fool got tortured as a child, got tortured to death on Aslevjal, then got tortured again, for years, at Clerres, on top of having to be in love with Fitz, which has got to be torture in itself.

idk how Hobb can beat this. I have total faith in her that she will find a way.

Junie wrote: "it seems Fool always have this effect on younger more impressionable people like Ash, Swift.. at the tent in FF telling stories, playing the puppet.. etc..."

You might be on to something here. The Fool may be genuine in his praises and connection with Ash but he’s also a master manipulator, consciously or sub-consciously. His show of kindness and appreciation bought utmost devotion and loyalty from Ash, a child orphaned, with limited resources and up to now totally dependent on Chade’s favor for survival. I think Fitz made that observation too (for once, he’s not obtuse). This might be a long shot, remember that dream from Bee about the puppeteer controlling the acorn head figure - I assumed that figure was Fitz or Bee, maybe it’s actually Ash or Swift! Not sure how the dream fits exactly though. Maybe it’s just a metaphor for Fool manipulating people.

Junie wrote: "...it seems Fool always have this effect on younger more impressionable people like Ash, Swift."

True, he does. This could be further evidence of Fool as Wanker, as he says that he can "charm" people into loving him. He has a use for Ash as his aide and eyes, so charms her/him. He had a use for Swift, as defender of real dragons, killer of stone dragon, so charmed him.

Chp 10 begins with the letter from “The Apprentice” to “Master”. At first blush, the writer would suggest Ash and the recipient, Chade. After all, Ash had became someone familiar for Fool to share stories with and was under guise. Could Hobb be throwing us a curveball? Perhaps Ash is a double agent reporting to Rosemary as Master, not Chade. Or perhaps, the Apprentice is not Ash but Rosemary reporting to Chade. Fitz frequently remarked on Rosemary’s touches in the room so clearly she has access. Perhaps she also befriended the Fool and heard stories from him. In the letter, the writer described a fallen Fool ”by the bed” but, later Ash told Fitz that he found Fool on the floor ”near the hearth”. Semantics? Or, more to it than meets the eye?

Nettle and Fitz took baby steps towards reconciliation as they shared a moment over her pregnancy. IMO, they always seemed to prefer talking via Skill than F2F (like modern electronics communication). IIRC there was a funny ad. about 2 ppl speed-texting instead of talking even though they sat across each other. LOL! BTT Nettle was a favorite in TM. She had spunk & grit. FWIW she’s now been relegated to supporting cast and supplanted by other n00bs in FQ. SCNR. (Forgive me, I don’t text so this is just in jest and not to offend)

There is an undercurrent of repressed hunger for the throne among the bastards. Fitz thanked Chade for the crown, and was told sternly not to wear it. Then Chade sent Fitz a thought, “He sent me no words, only a shared emotion that I had no name for. Snapping my teeth after meat I could not kill, Nighteyes might have named it. The poignant regret of nearly claiming something. I wondered what Chade had dreamed of claiming. A throne?”

As Junie mentioned, it was nice to have Lord Golden’s inner fashionista come out and provide much needed levity.

Much is speculated about Motley’s bond. This jumped out, “The Fool gave an abrupt caw of laughter, and the crow immediately mimicked him.” Isn’t cawing a characteristic cry of crows? Maybe Fool and Motley spent so much time together, they start to imitate one another.

Yeah, I wondered about that letter. I at first assumed it was to Chade, but then it seemed more likely it was to Rosemary - at that point, Ash is described as being hers, not his. Or maybe he's both? And if the letter is to Rosemary, does Chade know about it?

[Yes, i'm annoyed/saddened that we've essentially skipped over Nettle's life]

Alfred wrote: "He also charmed the young boy Fitz in Buck Keep all those years ago because he needed to manipulate his Catalyst. Fool got his comeuppance when he became the one charmed by Fitz when he fell in love.
"

The Fool does say that "No one is invulnerable to me if I choose to enchant them. No one but you, that is." Maybe he tried to enchant Fitz, and Fitz repelled with the magic of multiple personality disorders. idk. Anyhow, In Tawny Man, the Fool is exotic, pretty, wealthy. He doesn't need to enchant anyone to win them over. In FQ, he's none of these things, but still manages to win Ash, which is suspicious. Upon seeing him for the first time, Ash "screamed...as if he'd seen a corpse rise from the grave and shriek at him." Next day, Ash is on the verge of switching his allegiance from Chade to the Fool: "Ash seemed to have lost all uneasiness around the Fool; indeed, they seemed to have established a swift camaraderie." Ash is perfect for the Fool. S/he is bright and resourceful, and has access to Chade's meds. Ash part-cures him with dragon blood, then risks life and sanity in portals with him. Some kind of enchantment might be responsible, and then maybe Ash is playing her/his own game, or this is Chade's game. idk.

Wastrel wrote: "[Yes, i'm annoyed/saddened that we've essentially skipped over Nettle's life..."

Hobb took such liberal time leaps (and... 20 years later... Fitz is now 60 years old!); I guess it's hard to make new readers root for an "old" character like Nettle. Maybe she'll mentor Bee's growing up... Going on the assumption that there is a Bee ever after, following this trilogy.

Ash09 wrote: " Ash is perfect for the Fool"

Ash, like Per, is mysterious. I wonder who his/her father is. Anyone remember the Farseer cousin (name?) who accompanied Fitz to Mountain to bring K back as bride for Verity (AA)? He became overwhelmed by the Skill and eventually left the court for somewhere in the country. Coincidentally isn't the brothel in the country also? (Ash has country accent)

Alfred wrote: "Scarletine: so quiet? We're nearing the end of chp 8-11. Are you starting a new topic for 12-15, or shall I. Your lead."

Sorry about that. I've been writing and have just had an m/m novella released today, so it's been a busy day. I'll start the topic off and you can lead on. I will be reading over everything and commenting, but i'm currently exhausted.

Junie wrote: "Ash09 wrote: ".Was he able to get it up by the time Verity got done with him? .."

Oh gosh this is making an older grown woman blush! I thought this forum is pretty PG as we say in America. I gues..."

oh lord my fault, edited!!!! I really apologize.

Ash09 wrote: "Alfred wrote: Ash, like Per, is mysterious. I wonder who his/her father is.

Could be Chade. The name, "Spark," follows the Lantern/Shine trend, and Chade's definitely making babies all over the pl..."

LOL...Well the silver is like catnip for dragons, so I'm wondering if all that time Chade spent scooting off to Aslevjal,and holding the memory stone could have had an aphrodisiac effect...or I'm guessing Chade can direct his skill energy to all sorts of places! :-p

Junie wrote: "Robin's not shy about writing about sex and bastardy..."

No she's not. Hobb writes plenty about birds and bees. All relevant to the story. In fact Hobb has used sex as a powerful medium to describe the deep skill or wit connections between various characters. Like the unintentional menage trois of Nighteyes-Molly-Fitz, or Verity-K-Fitz, and then again Verity as Fitz-K-Fitz. Also the infamous Fitz-Fool skill joining. Amazingly, Fitz hasn't bedded anyone yet. Based on his record, he would have by book 2.

Ash09: I see what you mean about the name correlation but why would Chade not acknowledge Ash also when asked by Fitz? He's already claimed two bastards what's one more. You're right, how many other bastards does Chade have out there?? I can't believe just two.

Ash09: (I did see your post). Haha you know, he had pots of stuff in the spy room that Fitz was unable to identify. Maybe one of those were "enhancers"... Plus 100 years is a long time to perfect one's skills. He's Skilled, and then he's skilled... How ironic that the one woman he loved, Laurel, did not want his love.

Scarletine: hey I forgot about those memory stones. Imagine Chade finding some Elderlings' private and personal home made videos!

Junie wrote: "No harm done! :) :) :) I'm married so not exactly naive about these things and Robin's not shy about writing about sex and bast..."

Oh gosh, sorry again, but thank you for being understanding :)

Alfred wrote: "the unintentional menage trois of Nighteyes-Molly-Fitz...
...Imagine Chade finding some Elderlings' private and personal home made videos!

Yeah the Nighteyes-Molly-Fitz combo was unique. Is that when Molly got Nettle? Re the elderlings: Dragons seem aggressively into food and sex; they seem aggressive about everything they want. Do they pass that on to their elderlings?

Junie wrote: "Alfred wrote: "Fitz hasn't bedded anyone yet. Based on his record, he would have by book 2"

That's true.... In AA there was Molly and then there was Starling in RA... I recall the Fool sending Sta..."

Hmm... how many books doesn't Fitz have sex in? I don't think he has sex with Molly in AA, does he? He certainly does in RA. Does he have sex with Starling at all in AQ? He does have sex with Jinna in FE, and I think he has sex with Jinna one last time in GF? He implicitly has sex with Molly in the epilogue to FF. We can certainly assume he has sex with Molly many times in FA. But no sex in FQ... still, for a man whose life has been so godawful in so many ways, it's good to see he's been able to squeeze in a little enjoyment here and there between the bouts of nearly-dying....

Btw, I know it's off-topic, but I've just seen this:



...20th anniversary edition of Assassin's Apprentice. I cannot possibly justify spending £40 on an edition of a novel I already own. But I really want to find a way...

Out on October 22nd.

Wastrel wrote: "Junie wrote: "Alfred wrote: "Fitz hasn't bedded anyone yet. Based on his record, he would have by book 2"
He hasn't had time to get over losing Molly. I think less than a year passes between Molly's death and chapter 8 in FQ.

Wastrel wrote: "...20th anniversary edition of Assassin's Apprentice. I cannot possibly justify spending £40 on an edition of a novel I already own. But I re..."

Phweeeet! What a beauty. And, once you own the 20th edition of AA, how can you stop there and not complete the trilogy? So that's... £40 x 3 = US$X that I do not have. Looks like I can only afford to admire the photo..

Junie wrote: "Alfred wrote: "Fitz hasn't bedded anyone yet. Based on his record, he would have by book 2"

That's true.... In AA there was Molly and then there was Starling in RA... I recall the Fool sending Sta..."

I don't think Fitz would seek a female mate. I think his mating days are done! I think that if they get Bee back and all survive he would be quite happy to have the companionship of Fool and they would bring up their daughter at Buck Keep. I don't think Fitz is so cruel that he would bring another woman into that most sacred of relationships- between him, Fool and Bee. I think they have all suffered enough, and we don't yet know the effect of the changes that occur when Fitz uses his skill on Fool and they merge, or the full extent of the changes of the dragon's blood.
They will be the kookiest family- the fabulous elderling white prophet, his skilled witted assassin prince, and their skilled, witted, white prophet daughter...this needs to be a fantasy sitcom!

Alfred wrote: That's true... For a recently widowed man, it's shocking how few times Fitz thought about Molly in FQ outside of the opening chapter...."

I almost feel like she was necessary to carry and birth Fitz/Fool's baby, then needed to live long enough for Bee to become relatively independent, as Fitz would have killed a baby through neglect. Once Bee was capable of communication/self feeding, Molly was no longer necessary, and died. After that, Bee recalls her mostly in order to underline how incapable Fitz is of doing the most basic things for his daughter: Mommy would have changed her sheets, noticed that her clothes are too small and filthy, that her boots are falling apart, that she hasn't washed in weeks, that her hair is a tangled mess, etc. After her death, the "Molly theme" of candles or scents comes in, but that felt forced to me.

Hobb is superb at characterization and I love her women, but Molly is the huge exception.

Ash09 wrote: "I almost feel like she was necessary to carry and birth Fitz/Fool's baby, then needed to live long enough for Bee to become relatively independent"

Someone's got to wear that hat. If any character was to have Fitz's baby, raise it with normalcy and do the motherly things you described, then Molly's the best woman for the job. Consider the candidates in Fitz's life - Starling as a mother? Nah, too self-centered. Inexperienced. Jinna? Nah, self-eliminated. Has some experience with niece but did not want children. Kettricken? Nah, likely menopaused. Good mother but nothing normal with royal life. Fool? Quit kidding.

So in a sense, Hobb did write Molly to fulfill the child bearing/rearing aspects and wrote her out once her job's done. It's not the first time Hobb kills off a character to make way for love. Poor Burrich miraculously survived Aslevjal but conveniently killed so Fitz can have his Molly. So when time comes for Fool to wend back into Fitz's life... just recycle the spousal death trick.

I really don't dislike Molly, but do like her much less in FA than in Farseer. Her character felt one-dimensional and the weird pregnancy was very alienating. Molly excluded Fitz in those parenting experiences. That, I resented. And Bee did not want Fitz near. So what's a man going to do but retreat?

So where am I going with this? I don't know! You're right, that's what I am trying to say.

I would love for the trio to be BFF (Bee-Fool-Fitz or Best Family Forever). But. Fitz. Is. Heterosexual. Need. To. Address. This. Fitz's instinct is to seek a female mate. As Wastrel stated, when has Fitz not have seek sexual companionship? I hope Hobb writes a credible, realistic, believable love story for Fitz and Fool. Whatever the outcome.

Anyone wants to start off on chp 11, Withywoods?

Alfred wrote: "Poor Burrich miraculously survived Aslevjal but conveniently killed so Fitz can have his Molly."

I was livid about Burrich's death. Re Fitz's heterosexuality, I've no clue what he is when it comes to the Fool, and no clue what the Fool is. Is s/he sexual, the way humans define it? Can either be satisfied with touching wrist to hand? What does the Fool mean by "I battle for a mate I desire"? What's a "mate" for the Fool? Has s/he become sexualized because of dragon blood?

I'm not even sure if I want Hobb to make it clearer, as wrecking the Fitz&Fool mystery could wreck the novels.

Junie wrote: "The young Molly was feisty and I really liked her a lot back then... She lost me when she issued an ultimatum for Fitz to choose her or Shrewd without telling him about the baby. How can you make..."

She couldn't really have told him she was pregnant, though - because he'd have stayed with her. She wanted him to choose: her or Shrewd. Not "your feeling of obligation toward your child and desparate need not to repeat the failures of the father who abandoned you" or Shrewd. She wanted him to choose her without knowing he was going to be a father, because if he couldn't choose her for herself, she didn't want him to be her daughter's father. Plus, Fitz was being pretty oblivious... maybe Molly felt that if wasn't paying enough attention to bother asking, it wasn't worth telling him.

Besides, it's not like molly knew it was The One Big Decision. So far as she knew, she was having a row with her inattentive boyfriend, and going to a safer location that her boyfriend could easily find the location of if he really cared (it's not as though she ran off one night without telling people where she was going). The fact he didn't chase her, but instead faked his own death (twice) and ran off to live as a hermit, spying on her continually without ever letting her know he was alive... probably would have come as a surprise to her. I think it would come as a surprise to most teenage girls quarrelling with a boyfriend...

Ash09 wrote: "I was livid about Burrich's death. Re Fitz's heterosexuality, I've no clue what he i..."

Fitz is heterosexual. However, he's gone from disgust to small acceptance about Fool. He did mentally freak out when Amber clutched his arm in a too familiar way in Kelsingra but he outwardly reacted well. For once he's sensitive to Fool's feelings. Quite unlike the blundering fool he was in the quarrel with Fool in GF.

Oh yes Fool is sexual. In GF, he said he wanted to bed with Fitz. Well, he also thought he was dying and that made him bold in saying things he normally would not. He's always so downtrodden in love that for once, even if in a dream, he got his heart's desire. Small victory.

And yes, I do want to know.

Alfred wrote: "Fitz is heterosexual. However, he's gone from disgust to small acceptance about Fool..."

Re Fool and sex, I agree, but with reluctance, as I wouldn't wish fifty years of frustration on anyone. Fitz describes himself as straight, but he is also disturbed by the thought of the Fool being with a woman (Laurel, Garetha). Maybe he doesn't want to lose his best buddy, but maybe he's also romantically jealous. Fitz's ability to understand and communicate what drives him is limited; Fool's Assassin is a 700 page testament to how limited he is.

Re knowing, I'd rather not know if the explanation is going to limit the Fool. I love the Fool as Amber, and I love him as Lord Golden. I want him to remain equally male and female; I'd hate to see that compromised in order to come up with a happy ending of some sort for Fitz, the eternally straight man.

Chp 11 - One third into the book, a rescue mission finally begins at Withywoods. An alarmed Fitz returns to WW to find servants conducting business as usual in an unusual circumstance. Fitz makes futile attempts to get answers from memories wiped. Lant is clueless but alive. Per is also alive but not clueless. Much of Per’s recount we already know from Bee’s POV. Why Per isn’t affected by the Skill-fog is open to speculation.

I will go out on a limb here and say this - I like this Fitz. Despite inner turmoil, Fitz was in control. He arrived, he observed, he led. Initially, I thought his assassin training kicked in but perhaps more appropriately, his natural leadership took over. He was authoritative with Bulen and the household help like the master of the house should be. With Lant, he was assertive and hesitated not in throwing out the royal title, wearing it almost like a second skin even though he was only crowned one? two? nights ago. I especially like Fitz’s immediate care of Per while simultaneously coaxing information out of him. Well handled.

More of Withywoods horror in next topic chp 12 to 15.

Alfred wrote: "I will go out on a limb here and say this - I like this Fitz. "

ita this is Fitz at his best, defined by "contained. Time to be contained." No weird crap like I'm doing it all on my own. No incapacitating paroxysms of guilt. No self pity or endless mememe. No missing obvious clues. As he says, "Now was not the time to hate myself or give in to useless wishes...There was only the now, and I must be keen and remorseless if I was to find and follow their trail."

So he deals, connects one fact to another, and comes up with something resembling the correct answer, including tying the messenger, Chalcedeans, "scentless ones," and the Unexpected Son to whatever went down at WW. This is a Fitz who didn't exist in FA.

What I like about Per is that a) he's a childish idiot, and b) he's basically Fitz. This is probably what Fitz looked like back in the Farseer Trilogy, to anybody who wasn't Fitz...

Wastrel wrote: "What I like about Per is that a) he's a childish idiot, and b) he's basically Fitz"

This should allay your fears about there not being another trilogy. When Fitz fizzes out, Per is rebooted as Fitz 2.0!

I like Per too for reason (a) among other things. Reason (b) though, I slightly disagree. Per has some characteristics of young Fitz but he’s an optimist to Fitz’s pessimist, heartened not melancholic, dogged not irresolute and wholesome apple pie not bad boy sexy.

Ash09 wrote: "This is a Fitz who didn't exist in FA. "

Exactly. This was the Fitz that i missed in FA- he was in control and authoritative. One of the things that grinds my gears about Fitz is the self pitying,guilt ridden monologues. There was none of that. He handled Per really well-in a fatherly manner, in fact (whereas he is usually going on and on bout what a bad father he is)

Junie wrote: "ooo bad boy sexy makes me think of james dean with dark hair... doesn't this quote of dreams and living in the now make you think of fitz and nighteyes? (indulge me... big JD fan)

"

Yes, Molly thought Fitz/Nighteyes combo was sexy! Not-so-perfect, guilt-ridden, blundering, lethal Fitz is sexy, too. He's not a Gary Stu, anyway :)

Alfred wrote: "Ash09 wrote: "Fool and sex, I agree, but with reluctance, as I wouldn't wish fifty years of frustration on anyone...."

Damn right!

So Fitz = straight, and Fool = both. What a conundrum! How to so..."

I think the connection between Fitz and Fool is deeper than sex. Remember in this book it was fool who was weary about talking about what happened at the Plaza, but it was Fitz who was strangely, more forthcoming about his experience and feelings, basically stating that 'I was inside you', spiritually, 'I was you'.
And that deeply personal connection. was nearly too intimate for Fool to even think about in his fragile state.

Fitz has come along way in his thoughts on sexuality. He has learned that men can love men, and it is okay (as long as it is a secret!) I think Fools androgyny as Amber, had Fitz a bit flustered. He was attracted to her, knowing she is/he is Beloved. I did note the sexual jealousy and the wolfishness in the way he behaved.

I can't wait to read how far Hobb will push this.

Junie wrote: "Ash09 wrote: "Fitz is sexy, too. He's not a Gary Stu, anyway :)..."

Thank goodness! This book would be sooooo boring if Fitz was soooooo perfect.

Scarletine wrote: "Amber, had Fitz a bit flustere..."

Double date. OMG! Fangazm! :-)

Folks, I think we're forgetting Fitz is currently being mobbed and Amber is about to get arrested... I think date night might be in prison.

Alfred wrote: "Folks, I think we're forgetting Fitz is currently being mobbed and Amber is about to get arrested... I think date night might be in prison."

Oh that is the perfect story line for some m/m fanfic I may have to write! :-p

"and yes to ash 09's question, baby was conceived with nighteyes-fitz) "

How do you know this? I am on my 2nd reading and I don't remember anywhere that this is verified....

Curious not arguing

Still waters run deep, Patience and Molly both knew a whole lot more then they ever let on, or so it seems to me.