21st Century Literature discussion

This is a place to discuss Corrigan and Ciaran, the chapters that concern them, their appearances in the chapters of others, and any minor characters who may crop up in 'their' chapters.

It's okay to post spoilers here -- don't read this unless you're happy to read spoilers.

'He was, to them, a mad, impossible angel.' How do you feel about this description of Corrigan?

Ciaran implies that Corrigan is naive at a number of points, particularly in his attitude to the prostitutes. Do you agree?

In the opening chapter, Ciaran speaks much more about Corrigan than about himself. Why do you think this is?

Initially, I was in agreement with Ciaran, thinking Corrigan was naive and was perhaps making some big, misguided mistakes. In the end, I don't think he was naive in the slightest. He followed his calling with true conviction. I found Corrigan to be a particularly beautiful character of un-corruptible faith. It's not often you read a character like that who is not one dimensional. I thought he was wonderfully drawn.

How do you feel about the fact that Corrigan died relatively early on in the novel? In many ways he could be seen as the main character. What effect on his priority does being dead have?

Terry wrote: "How do you feel about the fact that Corrigan died relatively early on in the novel? In many ways he could be seen as the main character. What effect on his priority does being dead have?"

Comment from and on a review. Potential spoiler if not well along in the novel:
(view spoiler)[
"The many strands of the novel are plaited together when Claire accompanies Gloria back to the South Bronx and two needy children unexpectedly enter the women's lives, allowing them to finally get beyond their own grief. Corrigan's kindness plays a role in these people coming together; suggesting that goodness begets goodness, and that we are all, as McCann said in an interview, 'intimately connected.'"

http://www.npr.org/2011/07/15/1294791...

Isn't Corrigan dead at this point and it must be Ciaran's kindness? I didn't go back and check the text yet. Perhaps I misread? Or does the reviewer mean something I'm missing?
(hide spoiler)]

**I am new to commenting, and not sure how to hide spoilers, as you did, Lily. Be warned, there are SPOILERS BELOW (also, anyone have a tip on how I can hide them in the future?)**

Lily, I have the same question as you. I no longer have a copy of the book, and yes, he was certainly dead. How did he impact the fate of those two girls? I am also unsure, other than being the driver when their mother passed, which certainly had a direct impact, but I don't think was the spirit of the question. Am I thinking of this too literally, or not literally enough?

Lily, if you're missing something from that review, it makes two of us. I disagree with most of what she said. Especially her claim that Corrigan is no saint. I think it's quite the other way around. Corrigan is a saint, and his character asks some seismic questions about what that means. I'm most upset with her intimation that Corrigan is a heroin addict. Yes, there is a shocking suspicion for a few pages, but that was swiftly beaten down with the explanation of his genetic blood disorder.

Making Corrigan the lynchpin of relationships within the book also seems like a misread to me, as though we should be seeking active cause or agency in these characters rather than seeing them as bound together by accidents of fate. Then again, perhaps I'm the one misreading it?

Allison wrote: "**I am new to commenting, and not sure how to hide spoilers, as you did, Lily. Be warned, there are SPOILERS BELOW (also, anyone have a tip on how I can hide them in the future?)**"

Terry gave the go-ahead to spoilers in the opening message, but you can check out all the tagging features by clicking on the "some html is ok" link to the top right of the message box (assuming you're using a computer rather than an app). The spoiler tag is:

(spoiler)text to hide in the spoiler tag(/spoiler) [just replace the parentheses with greater than/less than tags: <> ]

Daniel, I agree that Corrigan is a saint, or near as you're likely to encounter. An angel, as the book says. But I kind of do see him as a lynchpin. In a way I don't see this as incompatible with fate, or chance [which are ultimately two sides of a single coin]. Some people, by how they are, tend to be like a nexus, opening people up and bringing them together. I see Corrigan in this bracket, and for me this doesn't detract from the idea that the characters are pushed together just by the way the world spins. Some cogs are bigger, some smaller [which doesn't make the smaller any less important].

Terry wrote: "Daniel, I agree that Corrigan is a saint, or near as you're likely to encounter. An angel, as the book says. But I kind of do see him as a lynchpin. In a way I don't see this as incompatible with f..."

While there is certainly a web of interconnectedness (or cogs in the spinning of the world) where Corrigan plays a large role, I'm speaking more to the reviewer's claim that "Corrigan's kindness plays a role in these people [Gloria and Jazzlyn's children] coming together." It's like she's trying to turn it into a moral tale, and I think the story is too complex to make that claim defensible.

Looked at from another perspective, though, it's interesting that Philippe is ostensibly the tie that binds--the lynchpin of all the stories, if you will--but yet Corrigan stands out much more in my mind as the glue which holds everything together. In that regard, I think we see things in very much the same way.

In thinking about some of our recent discussions about MFA programs and their focus on short stories versus apparently (NY?) publishing demands for novels, my head has been playing with how this book falls. I feel as if in some ways it is a set of short stories tied together by Corrigan and Philippe, and including their stories. At other times and from other perspectives, I'm willing to grant it "true" novel status. I'm curious about the assessments of others, anyone, but including those of you with far more formal training in the arts than I have ever received.

(One of my points of comparison has been Trollope's Can You Forgive Her? , with both minor stories of secondary characters and long development of major protagonists.)

I've only just been able to view what was behind the spoiler tags (been on mobile app all week -- many things it can't do, read behind spoiler tags seems one). I see what you were getting at, Daniel. Yeah, it's a stretch.

I certainly see this as a novel in any sense that matters, Lily -- I guess I'm vaguely aware of a 'formal' requirement for a protagonist that this may lack, but such narrow definitions don't hold much value for me. In terms of theme and connectedness, of causality and consequence, this is much more than a short story connection.

Perhaps the protagonist is New York? ;o)

Terry wrote: "...Perhaps the protagonist is New York? ;o) ..."

Possibly. Still, this feels more like a snapshot (or photo collage) of New York than NY as protagonist to me. (Contrast that comes to mind: New York by Edward Rutherfurd even though I wouldn't call that nearly so finely literary.)

Ironically, Miss Jaslyn occurred to me as a possible protagonist, perhaps because she grew up across the span of the narration and does embody some of the social changes that happened during that time period.

Another tidbit that fueled my question was this interview with Colum, which suggests some of the piece parts from which he constructed the novel:

"CM: Let the Great World Spin wasn’t a particularly difficult book for me to write. I suppose I had to juggle a number of different voices, but that’s just part of the job. And I had to do a good deal of editing, but again that’s par for the course. Losing sections is always difficult — I had, for example, written stories about a hot-dog vendor, a Muslim shopkeeper, and an elevator man, and I had even invented a chess game that I was going to notate and put in there. I had worked with a chess grandmaster to figure out a game where black and white come to a mutual stale mate, but in the end it didn’t fit in the novel, and I didn’t want to shoehorn it in there either. I wanted the book to be organic and for it to flow."

From interview with Bret Anthony Johnston here: http://www.nationalbook.org/nba2009_f...

Nice find, Lily. Interesting to know some of the other possible lives that were set to be twined in.

---

'He said he'd rather die with his heart on his sleeve than end up another cynic'

How does this, said by Ciaran of Corrigan while the character still lived in the novel, resonate looking back on it after his death?

Terry wrote: "'He was, to them, a mad, impossible angel.' How do you feel about this description of Corrigan?

Ciaran implies that Corrigan is naive at a number of points, particularly in his attitude to the pro..."

I would not describe Corrigan as being naive, though I am not sure what the best word to describe him is, but I do not believe that he truly was quite the victim, or being taken advantage of in the way that Ciaran believed.

I think he did know the hookers for what they where, and was not being blindly or dumbly used by them, but he accepted them for what they were and was nonjudgmental, and I think he did want to have some hope that he could do something to help them in someway.

Maybe he did believe he could save them.

He has been described as being saintly, or like an angel, and within these chapters he struck me as being very Christ-like. And I think some compassion could be made between the hookers and Mary Magdalene.

Daniel wrote: "Yes, there is a shocking suspicion for a few pages, but that was swiftly beaten down with the explanation of his genetic blood disorder.
.."

I was uncertain of what to make of the story of the blood disorder because I was not all together sure if in fact we could believe Corrigan or if indeed he was just making up a story because he did not want his brother to know the truth of his heroin use.

Is there any verification of the blood disorder beyond Corrigan himself declaring it?

Or is that Corrigan is seen as so Saintly and so uncorrupt that he is judged as incapable of lying?

Silver wrote: "...Is there any verification of the blood disorder beyond Corrigan himself declaring it? ..."

I don't recall that Corrigan is ever tested per se, but see pages 47-57 (paperback), with the diagnosis from Addie, the description of the needed treatment, and ending with the following, all of which seemed convincing enough for me on a second read (and which I somehow largely skimmed and whose significance rather missed the first time -- what is happening for Corrigan himself comes across as very entangled, but not as drug abuse -- also, Ciaran's suspicions all led to dead or at least inconclusive ends):

“You ask me if I’m using heroin , man?” He was laughing, but looking out the bar window at the rafters of the highway. “It’s worse than that, brother, much worse.” p.57.

Commitment, sickness, loss of faith, and human love all tangled up together.

(Glad to see you here, Silver. I noticed you had expressed interest, but figured other things or just reading were keeping you occupied.)

Lily wrote: "Silver wrote: "...Is there any verification of the blood disorder beyond Corrigan himself declaring it? ..."

I don't recall that Corrigan is ever tested per se, but see pages 47-57 (paperback), wi..."

Ok thanks, I will have to go back and reread, I wasn't sure if I has missed something, and I never quite knew how much I should/could believe him about it, though for the most part I came to accept the story as true, I thought there was always the possibility that it wasn't.

Silver wrote: "...I never quite knew how much I should/could believe him about it, though for the most part I came to accept the story as true, I thought there was always the possibility that it wasn't..."

That's about the way I felt the first time, too, Silver.

I am trying to work my way through this again before my ebook loan expires and I am finding it very, very rewarding. This thing is convoluted enough that I am seeing things I missed on a first read. A friend who reads a lot had said to me that McCann's writing was very good -- a comment she seldom makes. I rather recognized that, but had reservations. I am far more impressed this second time as I can sort of watch him weave things together while exercising his keen skills of observation.

Incidentally, we must have been posting at the same time. I did make some changes @17.

I finished this part, and am part way through the next and the writing is just delicious. The rendering of the South Bronx is immediate and truthful.

Silver wrote: "He has been described as being saintly, or like an angel, and within these chapters he struck me as being very Christ-like. And I think some compassion could be made between the hookers and Mary Magdalene."

Nicely spotted! I agree.

Daniel wrote: "Silver wrote: 'He has been described as being saintly, or like an angel, and within these chapters he struck me as being very Christ-like. And I think some compassion could be made between the hookers and Mary Magdalene.'

Nicely spotted! I agree."

Please.....

"As a follower, Mary was one of many women that accompanied Jesus during his travels, ... During his journey, he was visited by two women, the unnamed sinner in Luke 7 and Mary of Bethany, both of whom anoint his feet and dry them with their hair, similar to the way Magdalene anointed him shortly after his death. In 591, Pope Gregory the Great stated that all three were in fact one woman, Mary Magdalene, and this is how she became labeled as a prostitute, or the unnamed sinner. However the Second Vatican Council removed the prostitute label in 1969 after much debate and Biblical evidence that there was more than one Mary and that Mary of Magdalene and the unnamed sinner were two different figures."

http://departments.kings.edu/womens_h...

Lily wrote: "Please....."

Yes, although I think McCann's mind would be more aligned to a traditional Irish Catholic understanding of the issue as opposed to any consensus of modern scholarship. That's all assuming the Christ imagery is intended, of course. But the same link could be made without the contentious traditional [mis]interpretation of Mary Magdelene. Simplify it to Christ associating with "sinners" and the analogy still holds strong (imho).

Daniel wrote: "...Simplify it to Christ associating with "sinners" and the analogy still holds strong (imho). ..."

Yes, I'm fine with all that and I understand the history and continued literary and film usage from which this comes. However, for some of us, Pope Gregory's voice becomes as troublesome as Mark Twain's to modern ears. The scholarship is not nearly so important as the underlying presumptions (offensiveness? [g]) of the usage. Nor should any of these sensitivities undermine the openness to the humanity of these women Corrigan displays. While Corrigan's particular manifestation of these traits of charity is Catholic and Christian and too rare, I don't perceive it is limited to those paths alone; i.e., it troubles me somewhat to rather restrictively describe it as "Christ-like." Perhaps the more secular appellation of "humane" is equally appropriate.

(My original post said such continued usage of Mary Magdalene's name makes my Protestant and feminist blood boil. That seemed hyperbolic on reflection, but as women continue to battle ancient stereotypes globally, I will remain perhaps outspoken.)

Terry wrote: "Ciaran implies that Corrigan is naive at a number of points, particularly in his attitude to the prostitutes. Do you agree?..."

Like Silver, I don't think he was naïve. I just think he was non-judgmental and accepting of everyone.

Julie wrote: "...I don't think he was naïve. I just think he was non-judgmental and accepting of everyone...."

And one might consider going even one step further in ascribing lack of naïveté to Corrigan, that he both judged, in the sense of being aware, and yet left judgment, in the sense of consequences, to his God, the courts, and earthly life.

Lily wrote: I don't perceive it is limited to those paths alone; i.e., it troubles me somewhat to rather restrictively describe it as "Christ-like." Perhaps the more secular appellation of "humane" is equally appropriate.


My use of the word Christ-like in describing Corrigan is based upon the fact that Corrigan did follow a Christian religious path. I simply chose the word/imagery that reelects the spiritual path which was chosen and followed by the character whom I was describing and because I do think the author is making analogies between aspects of the Christian faith and Corrigan's actions.

If Corrigan was an atheist than I would agree that calling him Christ-like would be suggesting a narrow view about charitable works.

But I think to refer to someone who is in fact a follower of Christ, and seems to be emulating the behavior of Christ, Christ-like, is relevant, and appropriate.

Interesting that I see why those adjectives apply, but the word I would use is human.

Also this put me in mind if the Testament of Mary. She too had a special relationship with God. She too didn't care too much for him once she got to know him.

I wonder what Corrigan would have preferred -- or if he would have even cared. But I don't think any that have been suggested are mutually exclusive, whether "human, humane, or Christ-like." Each deepens our apprehension of the situation in some way -- like the same light on a jewel refracted in different directions?

Great way of putting it, Lily.

Terry wrote: "Great way of putting it...."

Thx, Terry.

On the other side of the coin, had a f2f discussion Friday nite with someone who read this book a while back. Our thoughts wandered to John 8: 1-10. One of the questions that arose was, although Christ did not condemn, did He judge? Or as my friend put it, was Corrie an enabler, i.e., a bit accountable as hinted by his brother's accusations? And the conversation devolved into the tensions among loving/judging, enabling/supporting.

http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=John+8

I just finished reading the story of Blaine and Lara, and since I didn't see a special place to discuss them and their story I thought here would be the best place since their story intersects with the Corrigan and Ciaran story and chapters.

Thus far I have to say I think the Lara and Blaine chapters are my favorite within the book. I found their story to be the most engaging and interesting to read about, and even though Blaine (in particular) and Lara might not be the most sympathetic of characters I personally have liked them or at least found them the most interesting characters so far.

One thing that I found interesting is what seemed to be some parallels between Blaine and Lara and "The Great Gatsby" particularly since they specifically mention F. Scott Fitzgerald and Zelda.

I am sure most of us are familiar with The Great Gatsby but just in case, some spoilers about The Great Gatsby are raveled here.

(view spoiler)[After Lara and Blaine make a point of talking about wanting to go back to the 20s in how they live, and even having an antique car from the 1920's and comparing themselves to F. Scott Fitzgerald and Zelda it is difficult not to immediately think of the car crash scene from The Great Gatsby in compassion with Lara and Blaine's accident. There are a few strong parallels between the two.

The fact that Lara and Blaine keep driving, and seeing the way they deal with it kind of reminds me of Daisy and Tom after the car crash.

After the funeral when Lara is reflecting upon what happens she makes the statement "The had all arisen out of the ashes of chance." If I recall correctly the area where the accident in The Great Gatsby took place was called the Valley of Ashes.

There was also the incident in which Lara at first lies to Ciaran about being the driver, which is reflective of Daisy concealing the fact that she was driving and allowing Gatsby to take the blame for it. (hide spoiler)]

One more thing I wanted to say is that I really liked the symbolism behind the idea of the present destroying the past when Blaine discovered what became of the paintings which had been left out in the rain and embraced the idea.

I think that idea is also reflective of what happened to the two of them. They where trying to go back to the past in a way, but the moment they stepped back into the present world, when they left their cabin, returned to using drugs again they destroyed the past they where trying to create with the car accident.

Silver wrote: "One thing that I found interesting is what seemed to be some parallels between Blaine and Lara and "The Great Gatsby"..."

Thanks for this post, Silver. And for pulling out so many of the parallels with The Great Gatsby. McCann is not exactly a humble writer to so blatantly mimic Fitzgerald's "great American novel"! But, I did think the parallels were clever, and you caught some I had missed -- like the ashes.

Just in case you haven't finished the book yet, will put this in (view spoiler)[: What did you think of Lara ending up in Dublin with Ciaran as his wife? I had to do a double-take to realize that had happened. (hide spoiler)] Lara and Blaine were not particularly a "favorite" story for me, so it is fun to read your reaction and analysis, Silver.

Lily wrote: "Silver wrote: "One thing that I found interesting is what seemed to be some parallels between Blaine and Lara and "The Great Gatsby"..."

Thanks for this post, Silver. And for pulling out so many o..."

I haven't quite finished yet, but when I do I will look at your spoiler.

The Great Gatsby is a favorite of mine so I did really enjoy those parallels, and as a lover of the past and most things vintage I could really identity with that while idea of wanting to try and go back to some other distant time, and the 20s sure was an interesting time.

I also do tend to be partial to stories about artists and the madness that often comes with the lifestyle which many artists do have.

Silver wrote: "I haven't quite finished yet, but when I do I will look at your spoiler. ..."

Oh! Glad I had a premonition and went back and put that in spoiler format! Look forward to your comments.

Wish so much we had had more people who posted on this book -- I think there were so many goodies to catch in the text. So glad you commented on this aspect! It was interesting how it fit seamlessly enough that one rather needed to know GG to catch it. (Now I'm wondering what other similar tricks did Colum pull on us?)

Lily wrote: Wish so much we had had more people who posted on this book -- I think there were so many goodies to catch in the text. So glad you commented on this aspect

Yes, I agree I think it would be interesting if there where more people commenting to see what other interpretations and what other things others might have picked up on.

I do think there must be a lot of little allusions within this text to various different sources so it would be interesting to see if others might pick up on certain things that I myself might not have noticed/been familiar with.

Silver, that's great. I love your way of describing what happened to them in your last two paragraphs, about the present and the past.

Lily, I kind of thought that was coming, and when I realised where the two characters concerned were going, I kinda knew what they'd find there. It seemed kind of destined or something, to me. Strange on the bare face of it but somehow just right, and a great resolution for those concerned.

Terry wrote: "...Strange on the bare face of it but somehow just right, and a great resolution for those concerned. ..."

Colum had put the all the appropriate foreshadowing in place. That story thread disappearing for a bit is what threw me, I think. I did wonder what happened to Blaine -- he was neither found floating in a pool (or stream) nor disappearing into the Midwest. [g] Colum had a ability to leave certain characters with an unpredictable future, but not so many that the reader felt ill cared for, i.e., he sufficiently wrapped up the lives of most of them in his final pages, even as he introduced the rather enigmatic figure of Tom, whose role in the story I'm still trying to determine, beyond saying that old patterns of relating don't necessarily disappear in a single generation.