THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion

This month's theme read is on any book or books that covers any sea battle or campaign of WW2 that interests you.

Is that the Bismarck?

Manray9 wrote: "Is that the Bismarck?"

Well spotted! :)

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "Is that the Bismarck?"

Well spotted! :)"

I know my warships.

The Bismarck's nemesis:

http://www.hyperscale.com/images/PB10...

Manray9 wrote: "The Bismarck's nemesis:

http://www.hyperscale.com/images/PB10..."

Very nice!

I'll come in a little later in Feb. with either:

Tirpitz: Hunting the Beast by John Sweetman

or

I Sank the Bismarck by John Moffat.

I will also be joining in a little later with this book (I think):

The Battle Of The Atlantic: How the Allies Won the War by Jonathan Dimbleby

Just thought you might be interested in my recent interview with a guy who bombed the Tirpitz: www.elinorflorence.com/blog/tirpitz


Manray9 wrote: "I'll come in a little later in Feb. with either:

Tirpitz: Hunting the Beast by John Sweetman

or

I Sank the ..."

Manray9 wrote: "I'll come in a little later in Feb. with either:

Tirpitz: Hunting the Beast by John Sweetman

or

I Sank the ..."

Elinor wrote: "Just thought you might be interested in my recent interview with a guy who bombed the Tirpitz: www.elinorflorence.com/blog/tirpitz


Manray9 wrote: "I'll come in a little later in Feb. with either:..."

Thanks, Elinor. I'm on one of my intermittent FAA binges right now reading Hugh Popham's Sea Flight: A Fleet Air Arm Pilot's Story. Popham learned to fly at Kingston, Ontario.

Elinor wrote: "Just thought you might be interested in my recent interview with a guy who bombed the Tirpitz: www.elinorflorence.com/blog/tirpitz..."

Very nice interview Elinor, and great pictures.

Thank you, Mike.

Great link, thanks for sharing Elinor.

I remember reading about the Tirpitz in several accounts. Many attempts were made to sink her. For some reason she was about two meters longer than Bismarck. There was also a comment that when she sank the fuel on board represented a seriously large fraction of German fuel reserves, at least for the Kriegsmarine.

Howard wrote: "I remember reading about the Tirpitz in several accounts. Many attempts were made to sink her. For some reason she was about two meters longer than Bismarck. There was also a comment that when she ..."

There were 33 separate airstrikes against her by the British.

Looks like The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors: The Extraordinary World War II Story of the U.S. Navy's Finest Hour has been sitting on the shelf just for this moment.

Mike wrote: "Looks like [book:The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors: The Extraordinary ..."

That's a good selection, Mike. Perhaps the U.S. Navy's finest hour.

Manray9 wrote: "Howard wrote: "I remember reading about the Tirpitz in several accounts. Many attempts were made to sink her. For some reason she was about two meters longer than Bismarck. There was also a comment..."

I believe the Admiralty assessment was that it would take three King George V class battleships to subdue her if she did come out. Bud Abbott's mission was prompted by the intelligence, both from Ultra decrypts and agents on the ground, that Tirpitz was nearly ready for sea. That day never came.

Scharnhorst
Jakobsen's book on Scharnhorst is very balanced and illuminating on North Cape, covering the events from British, Norwegian and German points of view. I don't know of a better treatment - but I haven't read them all! He also carries on to cover the contribution of the Norwegian reporting networks to intelligence on Tirpitz.

I interviewed one of the 3 HMS Hood survivors, Albert Briggs and also Lt Baron Burkhard von Mullenheim-Rechberg, the senior officer to survive the Bismarck. Good men.

Manray9 wrote: "Is that the Bismarck?"

It is, it is also a picture on the cover of a book about the Bismarck, which made me think of the line, 'Does this Armor make me look fat?'

Dj wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "Is that the Bismarck?"

It is, it is also a picture on the cover of a book about the Bismarck, which made me think of the line, 'Does this Armor make me look fat?'"

It's just the anti-torpedo bulges, honey. You're not fat. :-)

"Does this armor make me look fat?"

"It's just the anti-torpedo bulges, honey. You're not fat."

You say the nicest things, dear, but tomorrow I go on a diet! ;-)

Hope it's okay if I jump the gun on February's theme...
I don't think they were meant to be a trilogy, but I really enjoyed Hornfischer's three books on the Pacific campaign: Ship of Ghosts gave me some insights into the doomed ABDA fleet, but also the brutality that Allied POWs faced in Japanese camps.
Neptune's Inferno was probably my favorite - I've been fascinated by the naval campaigns around Guadalcanal, and this was a good book to pull the most important stretch of that campaign (1942-1943) together.
Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors was just flat out an enjoyable read.
4 books I'm looking forward to:
I loved Ian Toll's 6 Frigates book, so I'm guessing his trilogy on the Pacific Campaign will be a good one (and a nice counterweight to reading Rick Atkinson's phenomenal (in my view) history of the US Army in the European theater.
The 4th book is War Plan Orange. It was written by a businessman who argues that War Plan Orange was ultimately the framework for the successful Pacific campaign - very interested to read this because I'm curious about the strategic planning process, and the author's views run counter to some of the other books I've read.

More than happy for you to jump the gun Brian :)

I really enjoyed Rick Atkinson's trilogy so if Ian Toll's Pacific trilogy is just as good then I'll be pretty happy. I suppose I better try and read the first volume soon!

Battleship....Martin Middlebrook and Patrick Mahoney.

An excellent book Wade!


Battleship by Martin Middlebrook

Betsy wrote: ""Does this armor make me look fat?"

"It's just the anti-torpedo bulges, honey. You're not fat."

You say the nicest things, dear, but tomorrow I go on a diet! ;-)"

Almost all the Battleships of the era I have seen end on from the front tend to look like that. Nice sleek bows and really wide in the waist. I suspect that it has as much to do with the anti-torpedo bulges as the space needed for command and control structures and armaments. The Bismarck may be on the small side compared to the Iowa class, or the Yamoto, but she was still a heavy hitter.

Wade wrote: "Battleship....Martin Middlebrook and Patrick Mahoney."

I read this, it was a very fine book. Hope you enjoy it.

Brian wrote: "Hope it's okay if I jump the gun on February's theme...
I don't think they were meant to be a trilogy, but I really enjoyed Hornfischer's three books on the Pacific campaign: Ship of Ghosts gave me..."
Brian, I share your interest in Guadalcanal stuff, especially the USS Washington ripping into the Kirishima. On website NavWeaps.com there is a fine detailing of new specifics on that engagement from documented sources including underwater pics of Kirishima and the initial damage report of the Japanese engineer on board responsible for reporting after action whose notes were begun while the battle was ongoing including a diagram of Kirishima with damage marked. Main gun hits by Washington were doubled from the figures that stood for years as the estimate. The final and probably more detailed report that was normally submitted after about 30 days probably got burned in a Curtis Lemay fire bomb raid later in the war, but technical explanations and statistical probability also demonstrate that there were not just 8 or 9 main gun hits, but 20. Also interesting analysis of hits by secondary armament. Another factor in that night action was the difference in US and Japanese radar, which I have found interesting in and of itself in this and other sources. It is stimulating when stuff that has been regurgitated for years and taken as fact is found to be less than accurate. It usually makes things clearer, though they still aren't sure how to explain the course of the Kirishima in relation to the jammed position of the rudder.

American battleships were all pretty much designed, as far as width of beam, to be able to transit the Panama Canal. I don't know if this extended to British or other allied types. Other than that, width probably meant a more stable gun platform. Considering the computer calculations done for main battery fire (including position of the MOON) a lot of effort devoted to maximize accuracy.

Wht would be the best narrative/history of the life and death of the Graf Spee?

Hey

Im going to tackle The Battle Of The Atlantic: How the Allies Won the War as well, and if I can manage it Churchill & Sea Power about the political/strategic aspects.

Some interesting titles there, shame we cant get Ian Toll's books on Kindle in New Zealand as they look good.

Bevan

Bevan

Howard wrote: "American battleships were all pretty much designed, as far as width of beam, to be able to transit the Panama Canal. I don't know if this extended to British or other allied types. Other than that,..."

British warships were built (or in some cases cut down) to the letter of the Washington Naval Treaty. By the time American rearmament got under way the Japanese had repudiated the treaty and it was clear that the Germans were lying through their teeth, so there was no particular need for restraint.

Mike wrote: "Looks like [book:The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors: The Extraordinary ..."

I'm just about to start this one as well.

I suppose The Cruel Sea by Nicholas Monserrat is too old to consider? It is one of my all-time favourites.

The Cruel Sea

It is one of favorite novels too, but you'll have to ask the moderator if fiction is included in this theme read.

Betsy wrote: "It is one of favorite novels too, but you'll have to ask the moderator if fiction is included in this theme read."

Why not? The Cruel Sea is outstanding.

Going to start this one in about a week or so.

As for those you reading Hornfischer's "Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors", I know you're gonna like it! Probably the very best book on naval warfare in World War II I've ever read.

I am currently reading THE BATTLE FOR LEYTE GULF by C. Vann Woodward. One of the more intriguing phases of the battle is that of the battle at Surigao Strait because of the lack of communication between Nishimura and Shima. Talk about sailing blind. Even the captain of the SHIGURE, which escaped from Nishimura's force, wouldn't tell Shima anything because he "had no connection with him and was not under his command."

Manray9 wrote: "Betsy wrote: "It is one of favorite novels too, but you'll have to ask the moderator if fiction is included in this theme read."

Why not? The Cruel Sea is outstanding."

Never heard of it before but added TBR. Lots of 4-5 Star reviews.

Betsy wrote: "I am currently reading THE BATTLE FOR LEYTE GULF by C. Vann Woodward. One of the more intriguing phases of the battle is that of the battle at Surigayo Strait because of the lack of communication b..."

Betsy: I am a fan of Woodward. His The Strange Career of Jim Crow is a masterpiece, along with his edition of Mary Chesnut's Civil War for which he won a Pulitzer.

Mike wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "Betsy wrote: "It is one of favorite novels too, but you'll have to ask the moderator if fiction is included in this theme read."

Why not? The Cruel Sea is outstanding."

Never hear..."

Mike: It was made into a pretty good movie too -- starring Jack Hawkins(who played Major Warden in Bridge on the River Kwai), Denholm Elliott, and Stanley Baker (of Zulu fame). Screenplay by Monsarrat and Eric Ambler.

Darn, not on Netflix. Will have to search it out.

My friend Barrett Tillman wrote the book "Enterprise" regarding the aircraft carrier in WW II, fyi

Elinor wrote: "I suppose The Cruel Sea by Nicholas Monserrat is too old to consider? It is one of my all-time favourites.

The Cruel Sea"

You can read any book you like Elinor, non-fiction or fiction as long as it relevant to the theme.

Patrick wrote: "Wht would be the best narrative/history of the life and death of the Graf Spee?"

Hi Patrick, I've heard that Dudley Pope's book; Graf Spee: The Life and Death of a Raider is supposed to be a pretty good book on the subject.

Graf Spee The Life and Death of a Raider by Dudley Pope

Dj wrote: "Wade wrote: "Battleship....Martin Middlebrook and Patrick Mahoney."

I read this, it was a very fine book. Hope you enjoy it."

Dj wrote: "Wade wrote: "Battleship....Martin Middlebrook and Patrick Mahoney."

I read this, it was a very fine book. Hope you enjoy it."

Dj wrote: "Betsy wrote: ""Does this armor make me look fat?"

"It's just the anti-torpedo bulges, honey. You're not fat."

You say the nicest things, dear, but tomorrow I go on a diet! ;-)"

Almost all the Ba..."

Yes DJ it is very good.I'll read anything by Mr. Middlebrook.

Mike wrote: "Looks like [book:The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors: The Extraordinary ..."

Great Book Mike

I think you'll like it!

THE BATTLE FOR LEYTE GULF mentions Kurita's action report for the battle off Samar, stating that he included a Japanese slogan: "A sighted enemy is the equivalent of a dead enemy."

I found this to be quite ironic considering the final outcome of this unequal struggle.