Classics and the Western Canon discussion

This is the proposed schedule for discussion of Herodotus. It's a long work but I think we can handle one book per week. We can adjust if necessary.

March 2-8 - Book One
March 9-15 - Book Two
March 16-22 - Book Three
March 23-29 - Book Four
March 30- April 5 - Spring Break!!
April 6-12 - Book Five
April 13-19 - Book Six
April 20 - 26 - Book Seven
April 27 - May 3 - Book Eight
May 4 - May 11 - Book Nine and The Histories as a whole

Discussion of different translations has already begun on the Planning thread but feel free to share your thoughts and opinions here for people who have questions or haven't made up their minds yet.

Like a few others, I have decided on the The Histories: The Landmark Herodotus, translated by Andrea Purvis. I have also looked at Tom Holland's new translation, which looks very "readable" though perhaps a little more colloquial than some readers might want. Holland is both a very competent historian and a novelist, so his version has a little more swing to it. This could be good or bad, depending on what you want in a translation.

It's going to be fun! I've started reading the Histories, and I'm totally hooked. When I first read it in college, I didn't appreciate it. I do now. It's got everything!

Very much looking forward to reading this for the first time.

Thomas -- thanks for sharing the link to the TLS review of Tom Holland's translation of The Histories (http://www.the-tls.co.uk/tls/public/a...) on the other thread. Fascinating. Reading this article, I'll probably opt for the de Sélincourt or Holland translations.

I take it you disagree with the writer's assessment of Andrea Purvis' translation as "colourless" and "trudging"? Seems a little harsh!

Dave wrote: "I take it you disagree with the writer's assessment of Andrea Purvis' translation as "colourless" and "trudging"? Seems a little harsh! "

Well, not entirely, but "colourless" and "trudging" is indeed overdoing it. Purvis is certainly less vivid than Holland, but in general I prefer a translation that leans toward the literal. I read about half of the first book in Greek a few years ago and compared my (often inaccurate) readings with Purvis's translation, and I was always impressed with her solutions. So she has my confidence, though I admit Holland is a bit easier to read.

Dave wrote: "I take it you disagree with the writer's assessment of Andrea Purvis' translation as "colourless" and "trudging"? Seems a little harsh! .."

A little harsh, but I understand what the reviewer was getting at. I said in another thread that I loved the Landmark resources but wasn't that enthusiastic about her translation. It doesn't seem to convey the complex character and enthusiasm which for me infuses Herodotus. But in the end, better to read that Herodotus than no Herodotus!

Ah, I just did Herodotus last summer. I envisioned him as the garrulous old grandpa sitting on the porch rocker and spinning yarns. He's worth reading for sure. Not sure I'm ready to dive back in now, but I'll be interested to follow the discussion - the reading is still relatively fresh in my mind.

Somewhat related - I just picked up the Landmark edition of Thucydides and it's great so far.

Oops -- my very bad. I sent out the wrong starting date in the broadcast message to all members. Unfortunately I can't correct it until tomorrow, as only one broadcast message per day can be sent. But the correct starting date is above, March 2nd.

How I put in the 30th I have no idea, but dang.

Everyman wrote: "Dave wrote: "I take it you disagree with the writer's assessment of Andrea Purvis' translation as "colourless" and "trudging"? Seems a little harsh! .."

A little harsh, but I understand what the r..."

Hmm.. this makes me wonder if I should read Herodotus as I am currently reading Thucydides.. I'm reading both the Penguin and Landmark versions at the same time.. :-o I probably would choose between Selincourt and Holland or Waterfield (Oxford Classics) as they are available on kindle.

Everyman wrote: "Oops -- my very bad. I sent out the wrong starting date in the broadcast message to all members. Unfortunately I can't correct it until tomorrow, as only one broadcast message per day can be sent. ..."

Ah.. I was going to ask about that date. Thank you for clearing that up. Maybe you forgot that February ends on the 29th. :-)

Everyman wrote: "Oops -- my very bad. I sent out the wrong starting date in the broadcast message to all members. Unfortunately I can't correct it until tomorrow, as only one broadcast message per day can be sent. ..."

No problem - I'm glad it was so easy to straighten out. :)

If anyone is using an edition without maps, I found this site very helpful: http://awmc.unc.edu/wordpress/free-ma...

That link takes you to the maps of the ancient Aegean world, which cover most of the action. I found myself getting completely lost without these.

I actually found the Wikipedia page for The Battle of Salamis had very helpful diagrams of troop & ship movements for the entire Persian invasion also. I won't post a link, since I guess it could technically be construed as a spoiler.

Borum wrote: "Hmm.. this makes me wonder if I should read Herodotus as I am currently reading Thucydides..."

The Norton Critical for Herodotus includes segments from Thuycdides for comparison. I got a kick out of it!

Everyman wrote: "Oops -- my very bad. I sent out the wrong starting date in the broadcast message to all members. Unfortunately I can't correct it until tomorrow, as only one broadcast message per day can be sent. ..."

What is a broadcast message? I have never gotten one of those. If I haven't gotten one it may not be getting to everyone???

My vote for translations is the "Landmark Herodotus". Seriously acsessible, only qualms with it is it's bulky shape makes it hard to travel around with. I tackled Thucydides (also ancient Greek historian) multiple times in the "Landmark" format and it made the reading 100x smoother. Would highly reccomend that copy for those who wish who require some light background information on the Greco-Persian conflicts along with helpful guides and unobtrusive maps.

I will *not* take part in the discussions, yet let me recommend you the most accurate map of Herodotus' world I found after checking some dozens maps ... (I wrote a book about Herodotus and Atlantis in German, maybe available in English some day). Here is the map:
http://www.atlantis-scout.de/atlantis...

I'm TOTALLY TOTALLY in on this one!

Thorwald wrote: "I will *not* take part in the discussions, yet let me recommend you the most accurate map of Herodotus' world I found after checking some dozens maps ... (I wrote a book about Herodotus and Atlanti..."

That map is great for the big picture stuff towards the beginning of the text - I used a very similar one as well (possibly even the same one). But when he starts referring to specific islands, cities, etc, I found myself turning more towards detailed Aegean maps. Even though I'm roughy familiar with the region, some of the text gets pretty granular.

Genni wrote: "What is a broadcast message? I have never gotten one of those. If I haven't gotten one it may not be getting to everyone??? "

They come through the mail feature of Goodreads -- your inbox accessed by a little envelope on the top right of the screen in the standard computer version. If you're using the mobile app, I don't know how that works. And if you have the messages feature turned off, you might not get them. Otherwise, they go to the Goodreads inbox of every person in the group.

Here are the two messages I broadcast.

On Wednesday:
The Western Canon group is gearing up for our nine week reading of Herodotus’s Histories, starting on March 30, to be led by the incomparable Thomas.

Ho hum, you say. Herodotus. History. I can skip that.

But don’t. Because if you do, you’ll be missing an extraordinarily rich tapestry of almost every human emotion, of a vast exploration of almost all the then known world. You’ll be missing out on murder, lust, cannibalism, love, hubris, fashion, sex, betrayal, devotion, courage, and so much more. You’ll miss out on the original source for the recent movie 300 (“Prepare for Glory!”), and of a central theme in The English Patient – how much more contemporary can a book be? You’ll miss out on Herodotus's account of the annual Babylonian auction of marriageable young women (just one of what Justin Marozzi in The Way of Herodotus calls “no end of racy stories.”) You’ll miss out on – well, on almost everything that makes humans human.

Get your copy of the Histories and join the reading and discussion. It’s almost certain to be more enjoyable and intellectually rewarding than whatever you would otherwise be spending your time on!

Then today:
I made a significant error in my post on the Herodotus discussion. The start date is not Mach 30, as I had said in the post, but is March 2nd, coming up in less than two weeks.

Still plenty of time to get ready for the discussion. Hope to see you there on March 2nd!

Sorry for the error.

If you didn't get these, either the mobile app doesn't allow them, or you have the message feature turned off, or something else is happening that I don't have any knowledge of.

Kyle wrote: "That map is great for the big picture stuff towards the beginning of the text - I used a very similar one as well (possibly even the same one). But when he starts referring to specific islands, cities, etc, I found myself turning more towards detailed Aegean maps. Even though I'm roughy familiar with the region, some of the text gets pretty granular. ."

Not to mention that some of the place names are different now from then. But actually, for general geography, I also find that having Google Earth open in a browser tab is also a useful option at times. The land, oceans, rivers, etc. mostly haven't changed that much in 2500 years, and many of the cities are still either there or their locations marked as historical sites (such as Sardis, or now Sardes, in then Asia now Turkey; Google Earth shows very nicely the terrain which often represents the paths that armies would have followed. Although sometimes Google Earth is deceptive: if you look, for example, at Thermopylae it doesn't seem all that challenging a pass, but then check this out:

Everyman wrote: "They come through the mail feature of Goodreads -- your inbox accessed by a little envelope on the top right of the screen in the standard computer version. If you're using the mobile app, I don't know how that works. And if you have the messages feature turned off, you might not get them."

Yes, I often send and receive messages through that feature. I did not realize that it was set to "friends only". Fixed it. Thanks.

Everyman wrote: "Genni wrote: "What is a broadcast message? I have never gotten one of those. If I haven't gotten one it may not be getting to everyone??? "

They come through the mail feature of Goodreads -- your ..."

no end of racy stories... :-)

If I ever write a book, I want Justin Morazzi to write my blurb!

Read this complete, unedited book several times (I love ancient Greek/Roman history), and have enjoyed it immensely each time. I consider it required readomg for anyone interested in ancient history texts,

I've also purchased the Landmark Herototus and am excited to start. Intimidated as well, and hoping to keep the pace, but chomping at the bit.

Tk wrote: "I've also purchased the Landmark Herototus and am excited to start. Intimidated as well, and hoping to keep the pace, but chomping at the bit."

I'm finding it much more enjoyable than I had remembered it to be when I read it in college.

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but the website http://www2.open.ac.uk/openlearn/hest... provides a translation of the text (not sure of the quality), but most importantly, provides an interactive map alongside the reading that allows you to immediately locate the myriad of places referenced by Herodotus in the work. Hope some find this more helpful than playing Where's Waldo or Where's Lydia with ancient maps.

Stephen wrote: "Not sure if this has been mentioned, but the website http://www2.open.ac.uk/openlearn/hest... provides a translation of the text (not sure of the quality), but most importan..."

Great resource, Stephen. The translation appears to be the 1920 Godley from the Loeb series. It's brutally literal. But being able to zero in on a location with Google maps? Priceless. Thanks.

I'm reading the Dutch translation from O. Damste (1968) and I can't help but smile whenever I notice the quite literal translation of those little Greek signalwords like 'dè' or 'ha men' (phonetically written)

To get a better idea of the area I'm using the 'historische atlas, dl. 1 en 2' I had to purchase for my history classes. They're very accurate and complete

Stephen wrote: "Not sure if this has been mentioned, but the website http://www2.open.ac.uk/openlearn/hest... provides a translation of the text (not sure of the quality), but most importan..."

Excellent resource. Thanks for finding!

In case anyone else gets hung up on the book titles, this information is all from Wikipedia pages. I do not know if the muses are supposed to correspond somehow to each book, or if there were conveniently 9 of them.

Clio (history)
In Greek mythology, Clio; from Greek: "made famous" or "to make famous"), is the muse of history,or in a few mythological accounts, the muse of lyre playing.

Euterpe (flutes and lyric poetry)
In Greek mythology, Euterpe "rejoicing well" or "delight" from Ancient Greek 'to please') was one of the Muses. Called the "Giver of delight", when later poets assigned roles to each of the Muses, she was the muse of music. In late Classical times she was named muse of lyric poetry[1] and depicted holding a flute.

Thalia (comedy and pastoral poetry)
Thalia; Ancient Greek: "the joyous, the flourishing", from Ancient Greek: "to flourish, to be verdant") was the Muse who presided over comedy and idyllic poetry.

Melpomene (tragedy)
Melpomene; "to sing" or "the one that is melodious"), initially the Muse of Singing, she then became the Muse of Tragedy, for which she is best known now. Her name was derived from the Greek verb melpô or melpomai meaning "to celebrate with dance and song." She is often represented with a tragic mask and wearing the cothurnus, boots traditionally worn by tragic actors. Often, she also holds a knife or club in one hand and the tragic mask in the other.

Terpsichore (dance)
In Greek mythology, Terpsichore; "delight in dancing" was one of the nine Muses and goddess of dance and chorus. She lends her name to the word "terpsichorean" which means "of or relating to dance". She is usually depicted sitting down, holding a lyre, accompanying the ballerinas' choirs with her music. Her name comes from the Greek words for "delight" and "dance".

Erato (love poetry)
In Greek mythology, Erato is one of the Greek Muses. The name would mean "desired" or "lovely" Erato is the Muse of lyric poetry.

Polyhymnia (sacred poetry)
Polyhymnia "the one of many hymns"), was in Greek mythology the Muse of sacred poetry, sacred hymn, dance, and eloquence as well as agriculture and pantomime. She is depicted as very serious, pensive and meditative, and often holding a finger to her mouth, dressed in a long cloak and veil and resting her elbow on a pillar.

Urania (astronomy)
Urania; meaning "heavenly" or "of heaven") was, in Greek mythology, the muse of astronomy and a daughter of Zeus by Mnemosyne and also a great granddaughter of Uranus. Some accounts list her as the mother of the musician Linus by Apollo, and Hymenaeus also is said to have been a son of Urania. She is often associated with Universal Love and the Holy Spirit. Eldest of the divine sisters, Urania inherited Zeus' majesty and power and the beauty and grace of her mother Mnemosyne.

Calliope (epic poetry)
In Greek mythology, Calliope; "beautiful-voiced") is the muse who presides over eloquence and epic poetry; so called from the ecstatic harmony of her voice. She is spoken of by Ovid as the "Chief of all Muses."

David wrote: "In case anyone else gets hung up on the book titles, this information is all from Wikipedia pages. I do not know if the muses are supposed to correspond somehow to each book, or if there were conve..."

This must be coincidental. The book divisions were made later, they actually aren't original to Herodotus.

(Totally off topic, the dorms at St. John's in Santa Fe are named after the muses. When I lived in Euterpe we called ourselves "The Fighting Terps.")

Thomas wrote: "David wrote: "In case anyone else gets hung up on the book titles, this information is all from Wikipedia pages. I do not know if the muses are supposed to correspond somehow to each book, or if th..."

"Rejoicing well" is a god muse for a college student to have. I was pretty good at rejoicing in my day :)

Stephen wrote: "Not sure if this has been mentioned, but the website http://www2.open.ac.uk/openlearn/hest... provides a translation of the text (not sure of the quality), but most importan..."

LOL For a second I thought that a girl version of Where's Waldo came out since I was little like Lego Friends. Great Resource! Thanks!

Stephen wrote: "Not sure if this has been mentioned, but the website http://www2.open.ac.uk/openlearn/hest... provides a translation of the text (not sure of the quality), but most importan..."

Going to add my thanks as well. My edition has one measly map!

It sounds like several of us could use a week or so to catch up on the reading, so I am declaring a Spring Break between the current chapter (Book 4) and the next. The revised schedule for the rest of the discussion is as follows:

March 30- April 5 - Spring Break!!
April 6-12 - Book Five
April 13-19 - Book Six
April 20 - 26 - Book Seven
April 27 - May 3 - Book Eight
May 4 - May 11 - Book Nine and The Histories as a whole

The discussion will continue through the break on the chapters up to Book 5, so don't worry if you are are still poking around Egypt or wondering who the Real Smerdis is. Feel free to comment on Books 1-4 at any time.

Books 5-9 cover the Persian War itself (after some introductory stuff in Book 5) so hang in there, action fans!

Patrice wrote: " This isn't a book to rush through but to puzzle over and savor."

I agree, and that's one reason why the discussion threads in this group stay open. Elizabeth Vandiver says she could have designed a whole 24 lecture course about Book 1 alone!

Patrice wrote: "Thank you, thank you thank you! I finally finished book two but have only read one page of book three. This isn't a book to rush through but to puzzle over and savor.

Happy Easter!"

I also say thank you. I'm up to the middle of Chapter 3, but there is so much going on that I have to keep stopping to look things up, make notes, etc. I had frankly been a bit dreading Herodotus, thinking it wouldn't be all that interesting, but it's an eye-opener. Fascinating stuff. And packed with information -- Herodotus didn't waste words!

I am finding myself both delighted and frustrated by Herodotus.

Delighted because (particularly in the Holland translation) he is a pleasure to read and packed with fascinating facts and tidbits. Frustrating because I can't just read him, but am constantly going off to look at maps, research little tidbits he just mentions in passing, look at how modern history treats the subjects he covers (I'm spending at least as much time with the Oxford Classical Dictionary, the New Penguin Atlas of Ancient History, and Starr's History of the Ancient World as I am with Herodotus.)

A few days ago I decided I just had to catch up with the group, and decided to just read through Herodotus himself and let the rest go by. This lasted a few pages until I got to the discussion of the river systems in Scythia, where I got sidetracked for well over an hour with Herodotus and the Times Atlas of the world open on my desk and Google Maps and Wikipedia (plus a few other sites) open on my computer. Sigh.

I am thankful that google exists, and that there are resources available at our fingertips. As you both have stated, reading through is a challenge because there is so much detail and maps really help.

Everyman wrote: "I am finding myself both delighted and frustrated by Herodotus.

Delighted because (particularly in the Holland translation) he is a pleasure to read and packed with fascinating facts and tidbits...."

That's the part I'm most looking forward to! :) The sidetrips into ... wherever ;-). I suppose in a way, I'm glad I'm joining late. I won't feel at all bad about being behind, and can wander to my heart's content :D

Patrice wrote: "I think if I had the holland edition, reading would go much quicker for me.."

It doesn't for me. I have both, Holland by my reading chair and Landmark by my computer, and both send me off in paroxysms of supplemental research.

My Herodotus books arrived today, 5 days ahead of promised date of delivery.

Hardcopy of Holland's translation, and softback of Purvis' landmark edition. :)

Probably will start over the weekend.

By the way, I bought the Purvis/Landmark edition specifically for the maps and other supplemental materials, but the Holland edition has quite a lot in that regard, as well. Just under 200 pages (at the end) of notes, maps, and a large glossary/index.

MK wrote: "My Herodotus books arrived today, 5 days ahead of promised date of delivery.

Hardcopy of Holland's translation, and softback of Purvis' landmark edition. :)

Probably will start over the weekend."

Yay! I'm looking forward to your thoughts.

I've been sticking with the Landmark edition to avoid too much distraction, though I have also been reading Seth Benardete's Herodotean Inquiries, which is fascinating but very obscure at times.

Enjoy reading Herodotus, MK. There is a wealth of information in each book.

:) I'm excited!
Not sure if I'll be able to wait until the weekend. But I'll try ;-).


This is a big step in my goal of learning enough Western Civ, Hist & Mythology, to tackle Dante's Divine Comedy.

Bucket list item :D

MK wrote: "By the way, I bought the Purvis/Landmark edition specifically for the maps and other supplemental materials, but the Holland edition has quite a lot in that regard, as well. Just under 200 pages (a..."

I'm finding Holland's map index very useful, though it's not quite as convenient to search the maps as it is to have them right to hand in the Landmark. But I'm enjoy the Holland translation immensely. And the glossary is a semi-hidden gem.

MK wrote: ":) I'm excited!
Not sure if I'll be able to wait until the weekend. But I'll try ;-)..."

Oh, go ahead, indulge yourself, start tonight! :)

Everyman wrote: "MK wrote: "By the way, I bought the Purvis/Landmark edition specifically for the maps and other supplemental materials, but the Holland edition has quite a lot in that regard, as well. Just under 2..."

That's funny that you highlight the glossary, I was amazed as I was paging through it. So much useful information, and tied to an index as well! I was more excited about the glossary/index than I was about the maps, and I do love maps. The glossary/index seems like it will bring the main benefit (I find) of reading dense/unfamiliar material on my kindle, to the joy of reading a physical book - namely the ability to have at your fingertips a search feature, and a look up feature.

Apologies for having voted for this and then having disappeared without discussing it. The planning ahead thing doesn't work well for me when something is to be read and discussed in future weeks/months. I have forbidden myself from voting (if I haven't already been banned by Eman, I've done this before) on future reads.