On the Southern Literary Trail discussion

You've finished. What did you think? If you write a review, please post a link to it in this topic.

Finished, at last! This one took me a while since I frequently had to put it down because of the dark atmosphere and the unhappy people portrayed. Apparently Styron modeled the character of the wife in the novel, Helen Loftis, on his stepmother. Now, that is an author getting his revenge! This is one that I am glad I read, but happy to be finished with. I kept seeing Stingo from "Sophie's Choice" working on this novel in his rooming house in NY.
Here is a review by Diane: http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

Diane wrote: "Finished, at last! This one took me a while since I frequently had to put it down because of the dark atmosphere and the unhappy people portrayed. Apparently Styron modeled the character of the wif..."

Diane, I found this the most painful of all Styron's works to read. The terrible dysfunction the Loftis family was unrelenting. The novel has the air of a Greek tragedy in the classic sense with the black servants serving as the Chorus. Although this was a 5 star read for me, I had to set the book aside for breaks to shake off the unending despair. I, too, was happy to reach the conclusion of the novel, feeling completely wrung out. I have James West's bio of Styron. I'm researching the background regarding Styron's stepmother. In one retrospect review, a critic for the Washington Post indicated he believed this novel had not weathered the passage of time as the continuing problems of the Loftis family were never broken by the intervention of one bit of wit or humor. Still, clearly, this first novel shows Styron as a writer coming of age. It is a foreshadowing of his great works, The Confessions of Nat Turner, Sophie's Choice, and the deeply personal memoir Darkness Visible: A Memoir of Madness.

Although the modern critic attempted to deflate the power of this novel, we cannot forget that at the time, Styron was awarded the Prix de Rome. No small thing at all.

When this novel appeared, reviewers likened Styron to Faulkner, specifically drawing comparison to The Sound and the Fury. Styron always bristled at this. However, it's difficult for me to ignore comparing the Compsons and the Loftises.

As you said, I like to recall Styron's humorous recounting of being fired by McGraw Hill in Sophie's Choice to work on his novel. Yes. Styron had reached the ability to find humor in the middle of tragedy.

One thing about this novel is, does it strike you as Southern? For me, surprisingly, the problems of the Loftis family could have happened anywhere. The themes seem more universal in nature. I thought place, setting, took a back seat to Character.

I remember some readers questioning whether Sophie's Choice was Southern Literature. Yet, I always felt it was. And I felt it definitely described the feelings of what it meant to Stingo to be Southern. And how Nathan belittled him for being a Southerner, one of the continuing storylines in the book.

As you said, I'm very glad we read this work.

I did think it was essentially a southern novel, because of the black servants and their relationship to the family (I also found parallels between Ella in Darkness and Dilsey in TSATF). I also think Styron was a bit of a snob about his Tidewater roots. There were several instances in the book where he disparaged "the flat accents of NC", the uneducated redneck appearance and clothing of a NC man, and another scene that I noted at the time, but can't remember the specifics now. I know he was educated at Davidson College and later Duke Univ, but I know a couple of people from that area in VA, and they have that same holier than thou attitude toward other areas of the country. I also thought the Daddy Faith and revival scenes were essentially southern in tone. Thanks for mentioning the lack of any humor, that's what made it so draining to read. There was no redemption for these characters at all.

I finished the novel a few days ago, and while I would say this novel engages and is admirable, I find it difficult to like. I would compare it to the old freak shows that shocked and startled the audience, but that the audience would have difficulty looking away. And they would always come back.

A strange, relentless novel about two egoists, Milton and Helen Loftis, who strive to not only fling every psychological assault against each other, but also destroy their daughter in the process as the father perversely loves his daughter and it seems that the mother loves to persecute her daughter.

In a sense, I did not find that the novel travelled from point to point, but was more like a center that went nowhere, such as a tornado or a hurricane. The reader swirls around the center of this married couple and its madness suffocates, and this suffocation is one of the reasons why the novel is difficult to keep reading, for it is one horrible event after another.

The centrifuge is the past from which these characters cannot escape. Milton, Helen, and Peyton have never considered the phrase of “moving on,” but then that is a characteristic of dysfunctional families. They seem to have the same argument again and again for years, and conflict is never resolved, but merely put off, toned down, but rises again.

As other novels that structure their narrative around single days—here I am thinking of “Ulysses” and “The Sound and the Fury,”—this novel just starts and ends, with no plot to be resolved in a sense of success or failure, in gain or loss. Peyton is the center of this novel, and sadly enough, what ties the novel together is her death, the moments before her suicide, and the funeral. Strangely enough, the only part of the novel that has any narrative thrust is Chapter 7 when Peyton, I believe, is trying to regain her sanity and distance herself from her parents, but has been already been throughly maimed through her father’s “smothering” and her mother’s jealousy.
Why the novel seems so long is that no character is sympathetic. Who would want to be in a room with these people? And that goes for the pastor as well, who even if he doesn’t realize that he’s flirting with Helen, his wife does.
In addressing the issue of the novel’s “Southerness,” I would say that Styron through his use of non-Southern characters (the New Yorkers) is quite vitriolic against the South, against characters, who if they had been real, would have been his neighbors in his own home town. Southern writers seem to be quite harsh against the part of the country where they were born. I wonder if other readers found Styron a bit like Quentin Compson when Shreve asks him at the end of “Absalom, Absalom” why he hates the South, and Quentin’s ambivalence shouts to the heavens.
Although this novel makes it quite easy to comment on it forever, I wonder if the final time we see Loftis is not an allusion to Oedipus’s blinding himself and to Greek tragedy in general, as Lawyer mentioned.
“Loftis lifted his hands to his face— a sudden, angry, almost childish gesture, as if he were striking himself in the eyes with his fists.”
However, I would say this novel differs from Greek tragedy in that these were not characters who were controlled by fate. Oedipus and other Greek characters are tricked by the Gods, but Milton and Helen Loftis are not tragic in any sense. They’re pathetic, evil people.

Great synopsis, Joey. I especially like your comment "who would want to be in a room with these people?" I agree with all your points, and think this book is most valuable to Styron fans who want to chart his growth as a writer. I can't say I enjoyed this book, but since it was his first novel it's interesting to see his growth as an author from this to "Confessions of Nat Turner" and "Sophie's Choice", which are both masterpieces in their way. Somewhere along the way he learned to create sympathetic characters and real plot lines.

I'll just add, that if this was the first Styron book I read, I probably wouldn't have read any of his subsequent novels.

Terrific Joey. I'm a week on this thing and can't get very far. Especially like your connection to "I don't hate it, I don't hate it, I don't hate it." sound and the fury. You 've encouraged me to finish. Although Loftis may kill the desire. Who knows.

Styron's prose carries the heavy lifting.

Like Diane, if this had been my first it would have been my last.

I read this book about 6 months ago. It's not one that fades away quietly. I agree with Joey that you are compelled to keep reading even though the characters are horrible and hateful to each other. Damaging each other even when they are trying to play nice. You know it's going to come to a bad end but like a train wreck you can't look away. I thought it was a testament to Styron as a writer that he wrote a story about damaged people behaving like spoiled brats and the reader still continues to read however distasteful the story gets! And it gets plenty distasteful.

Sandra, the afterward in the back of my ebook stared that Styron based the character of Helen Loftis on his stepmother. I wonder if a lot of this story was based on his observations of the relationship between his father and stepmother.
Pretty sad if so.

John, the novel is worth the lift, but it is difficult to watch the main characters wander in their own personal hells (it seems they "lie down in darkness" from the very beginning). Years ago, I heard the religious phrase that someone was "abject from God," and that is the state within which Milton, Helen, and Peyton exist. Being an innocent, Maudie always walks with the grace of God. She should restore faith and hope to anyone.

It is too bad that the hope and resilience of the black characters does not influence the Loftis family. Ella grieves, but she is not in despair, and in her joy, she sees Christ as they travel through the "everlasting gates." (Pearly gates? Gates of Hell?)

I'm a day late and one or two chapters short on this thread as I caved on Peyton's soliloquy, if you can call it that. Could not force myself to read one more sentence. I agree with most of the comments made here but for me, it's not simply that the characters are unlikeable. The real problem is the rain dance Stryon wants to bring to nearly every reflection, flash-back and piece of dialog, suggesting perhaps the author hasn't done enough to enliven character or flesh-out a forward-moving story. The man has an easy way with language, no doubt, but in this novel, it's a handicap, not an advantage. I can't cite the exact location but at one point I believe, Stryon has Peyton (or is it Helen?) and Milton walled off in the bedroom anguished and distraught yet again, when he brings in for poetic effect the pattern of flashing lights from an airplane that just happens to be flying overhead! But why stop there, I think? Why not state flat out, with apologies to Snoopy, "It was a Dark and Stormy Night and the airplanes were lighting up the sky?"

Southern writers are usually so good at telling stories, so when you get a sodden non-story like this, from an A-list writer, it's perplexing. Nothing I could find on-line indicates Stryon had some compelling need to work with material about a failed marriage. His mom struggled with cancer during much of his childhood and his dad was often clinically depressed. But, this doesn't seem a probable basis for the peculiar love/hate triangle we find in 'Darkness'. As for the step-mom, she didn't come into the picture until Stryon was at least 14 and getting ready for boarding school.

I have several thoughts, though.

By the late forties, when Stryon conceived and wrote 'Darkness', writers, dramatists and all manner of literati had come under the thrall of Tennessee Williams, especially his play 'The Glass Menagerie', which premiered in New York in 1945 to great acclaim. Williams brought a new visceral realism to the American stage by dramatizing the inner heartsick and conflicting passions and pretensions often at work in the family dynamic. Styron may well have been motivated to write 'Darkness', in part because of the influence of Williams and the new aesthetic rippling through the culture. (See John Lahr's biography of Williams for some interesting thoughts on why post-war America was more than ready for what Williams had to offer. https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...).

Another hypothetical: It wouldn't take many changes to convert Stryon's premise into the outline of Williams production, albeit one of an outre nature. First, make all the flashbacks elements of a "memory play". Then, structure the flashbacks so they augur two new climatic scenes at or near conclusion: 1) Peyton and Milton finally consummate their incestuous relationship (if they haven't done so already in the final chapters) and 2) After learning of it, Helen, in a fit religious fury and puritanical zeal, kills a drunken Peyton in her bed by 'smothering' her with a pillow. Later, Pastor Carey, channeling Stanley K, gets Helen committed to a mental institution.

Difficult to argue this conclusion is inconsistent with the elements presented in 'Darkness'. And now at least we have a basis upon which to build the supporting elements, eliminate the nowhere vortex and get that story engine tootin' down the track.

Interesting theories, Frank. It occurs to me that maybe the title was aimed at the reader, because Lie Down in Darkness was what we had to do to get thru it. I'm also perplexed as to how such a dark and dreary novel set Styron up as a such a success, becoming a bestseller, and creating his reputation as a writer to watch. Maybe it says more about the reading public of that time than the author.

While there is a 5 book stack that I could have indulged in, I spent a month on this. It's time to put the baby to rest, and I mean deep! I've had it! I don't need to read about family disfunuctionality when I have my own.

"Damn it, there must be something I'm missing". Yes Yes, I know. I'm a big boy and could have put this down and moved on at any time. Whether by Fate or by Choice I didn't do that. Temperament kept me looking for a spark to justify an investment. After 213 pages I couldn't find it. It was Faulknarian in scope, but lacked in execution. Good luck to the next person that tries it on for size.

Fortunately, Sophie's Choice was my first and I'm grateful.

The Forgiven goes back today, I missed it and will have to try again later. I expect good things from this one.

A short walk, through quail, rabbit, and hawk country to the library today. I'll take a bag or two and pick up trash along the road side.

These are waiting and I think it'll be Rivers that I move onto next. The Southern Lit gang seems to like it.

The Door

The Billion Dollar Spy: A True Story of Cold War Espionage and Betrayal
Rivers

The House at Riverton

Thanks for the encouragement Frank. It's always a pleasure to read your comments. You add quite a bit.

John, I think you'll like "Rivers", and the author has been giving us some interesting feedback in the Q&A thread. I also read "The Door" and loved it, so will be interested to see what you think of it. Haven't read the other 3.
The best thing I can say about "Lie Down in Darkness" is that it's behind you.

yep, my behind is in front of that book. I didn't think you liked The Door. Something about a dog and a beating, and I thought you quit.

That must have been someone else, I finished and loved it!

I am slowly wending my way through Lie Down in Darkness, doing it in daily increments. Reminds me a little of reading The Confessions of Nat Turner in JR high, first book I remember making me feel dreadful while I read it. I kept at it, I felt it was important and worthy of my time, but it made me so depressed, and I was depressed enough then. Lord of the Flies was another that made me feel so bad while reading. It was well done, and I am glad I read it once upon a time, but...shiver.

Kim, that's probably a wise way to read this book. It's an interesting book just to see how Styron started out, but a better book to HAVE read than to ACTUALLY read. If it's so depressing to read, just imagine how depressing it would have been to write it, and have to live with these characters for so long.

It makes me wonder if he was writing out of his own darkness even then. Sophie's Choice has light scenes, beautiful scenes, farcical scenes--Stingo and his introduction to sex via talk therapy comes to mind--so many layers leading to the revelations. But I will persevere.