Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Herodotus - The Histories
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Herodotus, Book Five
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Thomas wrote: "Book 5 describes the revolt of the Ionian cities against the Persians. According to Herodotus, the assistance that the Athenians offer the Ionians is one of the reasons for the Persian War. First, ..."Aristagoras' visit to the Spartans is a fascinating scene. The detailed map of the known world on a bronze tablet must have been quite a sight. For Kleomenes, it serves as the basis for a mini-geography lesson from Aristagoras, a "history" within "The Histories".
The laconic refusal to help seems in character for the Spartans. Beyond the stated explanation that Susa is too far from the sea, it's possible that Sparta was also scarred by its failed excursion against Polycrates (Book 3) and hesitant about military overreach. By having a one-on-one encounter with Aristagoras, it also seems likely to me that Kleomenes found him untrustworthy, and his suspicions might have been confirmed by Aristagoras' attempts to bribe him.
This shiftiness might have been less apparent to a crowd of 30,000 Athenians, but I'm a bit confused about what Herodotus is saying to us here and the line you quote (about how "a crowd is more easily fooled than a single man", in my edition) seems to be telling. Is Herodotus pointing out a flaw in nascent democracies?
In section 35, Histiaeus used a very creative way to communicate with Aristagorus regarding the rebellion: shave a slave's head, mark(tattoo) his head with the message and wait for the hair to grow again. The messenger has a simple message: Shave my head. Ingenious.
Dave wrote: "This shiftiness might have been less apparent to a crowd of 30,000 Athenians, but I'm a bit confused about what Herodotus is saying to us here and the line you quote (about how "a crowd is more easily fooled than a single man", in my edition) seems to be telling. Is Herodotus pointing out a flaw in nascent democracies? ."It's fascinating to compare the way Herodotus describes the birth of democracy under Kleisthenes (5.66-5.73), a messy political process that eerily resembles what happens in present day democracies (complete with name-calling and something that looks like gerrymandering) with the theoretical description of democracy that the Persian Otanes offers at 3.80. Big difference between theory and practice!
Aristagoras seems to agree with Megabyzos's assessment of "the worthless, ineffectual mob." I suppose time will tell if the mob emerges triumphant or not.
Herodotus certainly gives us interesting details about their rituals, the various alliances, betrayals, battles and so forth. In sections 87 and 88 he discusses women's clothing and explains why the Athenian women no longer wear brooches on their garments. They were angry, indeed, because their husbands didn't come back. What a horrible way to die.
Rosemarie wrote: "Herodotus certainly gives us interesting details about their rituals, the various alliances, betrayals, battles and so forth. In sections 87 and 88 he discusses women's clothing and explains why th..."It really is a wild story, seemingly to explain why Athenian women dress in a style that requires no pins. It's interesting that it begins with a crop failure in Epidauros which is solved by a dedication to the goddesses of increase and fertility, and it ends with the Athenian men going crazy and the wives killing the only man who survives. It's like a Euripidean tragedy in miniature.
Under another thread MK posted about Herodotus: "...he has been called the father of lies as well as the father of history." It often seems that Herodotus is striving for "truthiness." In 5.34: "Aristagoras of Miletus accordingly spoke the truth to Cleomenes the Lacedaemonian when he said that the journey inland was three months long. If anyone should desire a more exact measurement, I will give him that too, for the journey from Ephesus to Sardis must be added to the rest.:
With such attention to accuracy, why is he called the father of lies? (Is it because he includes versions of stories from a variety of cultures?)
The re-occurring theme of the text from the child Gorgo (5.51):"Father! If you don't get up and go away, this stranger will corrupt you!"
Rosemarie wrote: "Herodotus certainly gives us interesting details about their rituals, the various alliances, betrayals, battles and so forth. In sections 87 and 88 he discusses women's clothing and explains why th..."What a great story. I love how Herodotus uses this example to explain changes in the dressing customs of both cultures.
Herodotus was one of the earliest history writers, according to the introduction in the copy that I am reading. He gives us such a wealth of detail that it can be overwhelming. He may be called the Father of lies because,as you stated, he wanted to show us a wide variety of cultures. There is the likelihood of some misinformation, but I don't think it was intentional. He was striving to write as much as he could about history, which included geography and social customs as well, for him.
He reminds me of some modern newspapers who will publish articles without verifying the facts. The disclaimers are usually published in fine print somewhere in the paper. Future researchers may use the articles without realizing that they were inaccurate. Herodotus received most of his information orally, so I can imagine that there were inadvertent errors in the transmission of the facts.
That is true Patrice, reporters have been lied to at numerous times, sometimes unintentionally, sometimes on purpose.I am amazed at the number of details in his histories; I find I need to focus on specific issues because there are so many betrayals and so many battles.
What's puzzling to me about the "father of lies" appellation is that Herodotus is actually very interested in the nature of truth and lies. The incident between Aristagoras and Clemenes that Ashley cited is a great example. Herodotus notes that it would have been in Aristagoras's interest to lie, but that he tells the truth despite himself. It reminds me a bit of when Prexaspes tells the truth about the false Smerdis in book 3 and throws himself off the tower. I don't think it's incidental that this story comes immediately after Darius's defense of the "noble lie." It's true that Herodotus reports "facts" that are extremely dubious, but I think he does this with a purpose in mind. The lies that people tell can be very revealing, and reporting those lies is a way of telling the truth.
Yes, agree that the "father of lies" tag is unjust and seems to come from viewing Herodotus' work through the very narrow lens of a work of historical fact. It probably says more about those that cast the aspersion, and speaks to local or family pride that might have been hurt by Herodotus' depiction of certain battles.I also get the sense of Herodotus being very interested in the nature of truth / lies and reality / appearance. In Book 3, we have the case of the true and the false Smerdis, as Thomas mentions, and also the example of a place called Agbatana, one of which is in Media and the other in Syria, which is relevant to the demise of Cambyses. There are plenty more examples.
There's also the ongoing issue, throughout the whole work (so far), of how to interpret the oracle. As we've discussed before, I'm not sure why each ruler didn't employ an "official" oracle interpreter, for instance someone who is adept at lateral thinking, given how important the Pythia is to the fate of leaders and armies.
Dave, I too noticed the continuous reliance on and misinterpretation of oracles. You mentioned the use of lateral thinking in an effort to understand the oracles, which of course were deliberately cryptic. That certainly would help, but wouldn't those who consulted the oracle tend to interpret the results in their favor anyway?
There is a big difference between cultural diversity and divisiveness. It becomes a problem when a cultural minority decides that it does not need to obey the laws of whatever country they reside in, especially in their attitudes towards women and homosexuals.
Rosemarie wrote: "Dave, I too noticed the continuous reliance on and misinterpretation of oracles. You mentioned the use of lateral thinking in an effort to understand the oracles, which of course were deliberately ..."Yes, you're right, it's another flaw built into an already flawed system. I'm surprised how much Herodotus seems to defend the oracle and its uses, almost to the point of being an apologist. He may not invoke the gods like Homer, but he does seem attached to some ancient modes of thinking.
Dave wrote: "The laconic refusal to help seems in character for the Spartans. Beyond the stated explanation that Susa is too far from the sea, it's possible that Sparta was also scarred by its failed excursion against Polycrates (Book 3) and hesitant about military overreach."Good point. Though I think probably the need to march overland to Susa through mostly non-Greek territory was a significant factor, I also wonder whether they were hesitant to send their troops so far away when they had their own need to keep the helots and other slaves in the Peloponnesus under their thumbs. They were a minority population controlling through force a much larger area population which I believe was frequently on the edge of revolt (and sometimes over the edge). Would it have made sense to send a significant part of their army over into Asia?
Rosemarie wrote: "In section 35, Histiaeus used a very creative way to communicate with Aristagorus regarding the rebellion: shave a slave's head, mark(tattoo) his head with the message and wait for the hair to grow..."That's one of the more amusing aspects of Herodotus. But a bit slow!
Patrice wrote: "A lot of what he did was report what others have said. He had no way of knowing if the reports were true or not,"But he makes that plain most of the time. It's not a lie if you say "whosis said this" even if the this turns out not to be true.
A not-so-brief summary of the events that follow:
(view spoiler)[Histiaios and Koes, who offered valuable assistance during the Scythian expedition, make interesting requests of Darius. Histiaios is tyrant of Miletus, but he says he does not want another tyranny. He wants to found a city in Europe. Koes, a private citizen, wants to be made tyrant of Miletus. Darius himself wants to uproot an entire people from Europe (the Paionians) and remove them to Asia.
King Amyntas of Macedon submits to Persia, but his son Alexandros objects to the offensive behavior of the Persian envoys and kills them. But then he bribes the leader of the Persians who come looking for the lost envoys with money and his own sister to keep them quiet. (Why does Herodotus tell this story?)
Megabyzos warns Darius of his mistake in giving Histiaios a free city in Europe; Darius recalls him to Susa. Histiaios returns and they depart for Susa. Darius leaves Otanes in charge of the Ionian coast. Herodotus describes the rather gruesome throne than Otanes occupies.
Naxos and Miletus become the centers of the Ionian revolt. Aristagoras, who has been left in charge of Miletus in Histiaios's absence, is approached by some Naxian exiles who want to regain power in Naxos. Aristagoras believes he can take advantage of the situation and goes to Artaphrenes in Sardis for military assistance. Artaphrenes approves, but during the voyage to Naxos Aristagoras quarrels with the commander of the mission, who in turn warns the Naxians of the impending invasion. Concerned that he will be punished due to the failure of the invasion, Aristagoras organizes a revolt against the Persians. He first seeks assistance from the Spartans.
A digression on Sparta explains how Kleomenes came to power. Kleomenes is interested in Persian spoils, but declines to help Aristagoras when he learns how distant Susa is from the sea, and by his daughter's warning that Aristagoras is trying to corrupt him.
Aristagoras then appeals to Athens. A digression on Athens follows, explaining how the Athenians rid themselves of tyrants and established the first democracy. This involved a little trickery to get the Spartans involved in the expulsion of the Peisistratids, the ruling tyrant family.. (The Athenians bribe the oracle at Delphi to tell a little fib to the Spartans.) Eventually Kleisthenes comes to power by enlisting the common people into his association of supporters. Is this the beginning of democracy? A power play?
The problem is that Kleisthenes is an Alcmeonid, an accursed (but powerful) family. Kleisthenes's opponent, Isagoras, forms an alliance with the Spartans to topple Kleisthenes on the grounds that he is cursed. The Spartans go along with this, as do the Thebans and Chalcideans, but their joint effort fails. (One side effect of this skirmish was that the Athenians appealed to Persia for an alliance. This was misinterpreted by Persia to mean that Athens was submitting to Persian authority.)
When the Spartans find out about how the Athenians bribed the oracle, they try to reinstate Hippias as tyrant in Athens, but Sparta's allies object. The speech of Sokleas the Corinthian (5.592) is an extended argument against tyrants. Hippias is forced out of Sparta and he goes to Asia, where he persuades Darius to help him. The Persians order the Athenians to take back Hippias as tyrant. They refuse. And just then, Aristagoras arrives with his request for assistance with the Ionian revolt against Persia...
Aristagoras is able to convince the Athenians, "for it is easier to deceive and impose on a whole throng of people than to do so to just one individual." The Athenians sail to Asia, take Sardis, inadvertently burn it down, and then abruptly go home. Darius will eventually put down the revolt, but he is especially perturbed by the Athenians' destruction of Sardis because he thought that Athens had offered him "earth and water."
Why do the Athenians agree to help Aristagoras and the Ionians? Why do the Spartans refuse? Do their actions tell us anything about the character of the Athenian and Spartan people? (hide spoiler)]