The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

It's been a bit on a crazy week here. I will post some discussion questions on Sunday. In the meantime, you can continue the discussion here. You don't have to wait for the questions.

A couple of things that stuck me were that Arkady and Bazarov continued to travel together even though they were increasingly at odds.

I was also thinking about Bazarov and Fenichka's relationship. The narrator explains her attraction to him, but what about his feelings? I was thinking he was drawn to her simplicity. She wasn't stuck in the old ways pretending society wasn't changing (like Pavel ) and wasn't trying too hard to seem relevant (like Nikolai ).

I think it's interesting to see Bazarov reacting with passion after so many pages of non-belief and nonchalance. I'm not sure of the greater depth of emotion was love or anger at himself for feeling love. It's probably the most like able that he has been so far in the story, but then he goes back to being beastly, especially to Arkady, who may need this kick-in-the-pants to pull himself out from the spell he's been under.
(I'm a little unsure of Anna's intentions, though. Was she angling for a dalliance?)

What a teaser in chapter 23! It makes it so difficult not to read ahead! :0

Renee wrote: "I think it's interesting to see Bazarov reacting with passion after so many pages of non-belief and nonchalance. I'm not sure of the greater depth of emotion was love or anger at himself for feelin..."

So that brings a question to my mind - is it possible to truly believe in nothing or is that itself a belief?

That's a good point, Amy. He does seem more at ease in her company than he has been with any other character so far. His personality and his positions make it difficult for him, because he's always judging others and himself by this standard of nihilism.

I don't know enough about nihilism to say. It would seem impossible not to have some belief in something... Even ones own skill.

I'm wondering why Pavel has been following Fenechka around.

I have seen a change in Arkady and in Bazarov. Arkady is starting to think for himself, a little. He enjoyed talking to B.'s father and especially appreciates his mother. They don't seem to be getting along so well now that Arkady is developing an interest of his own--Katya.
Nikolay's estate is a mess. When Arkady comes to inherit, will there be anything left?
I am actually beginning to feel sorry for Bazarov. Unlike Arkady, who is uncomplicated and open, Bazarov is not uses to having feelings. From being a man of intellect, he suddenly has feelings for two women.
But I do wish he had stayed with his parents for more than three days.

I thought Turgenev was great at showing how Bazarov's unwanted emotions were effecting him.

Amy, I agree. Bazarov is a man after all, not a machine.

Our discussion continues. We're off to a good start, and I appreciate your continuing the discussion and your patience.

Some discussion questions.

Bazarov experiences heavy waves of passion which the author equates love to anger. Why?

Why does Odintsova find ugliness behind Bazarov's declaration of love?

What did you think of Bazarov's comments re his parents and their home (chapter 20)?

Is it easier to believe in nothing if you avoid emotions?

Why is Fenichka afraid of Pavel?

Renee wrote: "I don't know enough about nihilism to say. It would seem impossible not to have some belief in something... Even ones own skill."

Yet Bazarov indicates he will be a doctor, but doesn't believe in medicine. Does he believe in his own skill?

Bazarov is afraid of emotions in general. He likes to be in control at all times--of himself and of his situation. Love interferes with the smooth functioning of his intellect.

I think Fenitchka is afraid of Pavel because he is so distant and aristocratic and he stares so intensely at her.

I think the only way to really feel nothing would be to bury your emotions. Or switch your real feelings with disdain so other people don't know.

These are definitely characters I am having strong feelings about! I wonder if Bazarov would have had no trouble believing in love if his feelings were returned? I still see him as angry and arrogant, and at this point I feel like his anger comes first and he comes up with reasons for it as excuses.

I love the way Turgenev showed both sides when Bazarov leaves his parents. We see his need to get away and be free, and their need for his presence to give them reason for living. Heartbreaking.

I also think it’s interesting how Fenitchka feels the superiority from Nikolai, but not from Bazarov. One has allowed himself to remain in an acquired position of superiority socially, and one has put himself in a position of superiority over everyone in his own mind. Aren’t they just different types of snobs?

Kathleen, I agree they're both snobs, but Nikolai really wanted to improve and modernize his estate, while Bazarov just wanted to destroy everything. i

Bazarov is starting to be a bit human. And I felt bad for him when Madame Odsintsova rejects him. She led him on, and then seems to be confused at his response. What did she expect after paying such close attention to him for two weeks?

Although I do wonder what he is doing with Fenitchka. Is he really attracted to her? Or is he just hoping for a quick fling (which doesn't seem in his character)? Does he like her because he feels superior to her (I think some of Bazarov's issues come from the fact that he's not from a higher class family, and he feels his station in life)?

Also, even though he leaves them quickly, I liked how he interacted with his parents. He isn't condescending to them, given their positions in life.

I feel badly for Nikolai. It made me wonder what point is being made...that the changes in society aren't working? That there needs to be a strong hand at the helm to guide the lower classes, because without that, chaos ensues?

Lastly, I think it is good for Arkady that he breaks away from Bazarov a bit. He's thinking and acting for himself. Although, his obsession with Madame Odsintsova is a bit disappointing, especially since he seems more fit for her sister.

I think Bazarov is confused because I am sure he thought he was "above love". But he is a healthy young man and both women are attractive. Arkady is much more in tune with his feelings than B, even though he may be naive in other ways.

Bazarov has found his equal and now his violent streak translates into passion. But while Madame Odintsov is fascinated, she fears this vehemence: "peace is better than anything else in the world". Deeply hurt and his convictions damaged, Bazarov repairs to his parents.

But this is not the place to be, because he loves them.They remind him every day of the power of attachment: ".. the brain works and wants something … hoe disgusting! how petty!". Arkady on the other hand, learns to accept the world as it is, and is more comfortable with the elder Bazarov’s than with his friend.

After a failed visit to Nikolskoe - Odintsova’s decision seems final - the boys go to Maryino. Where business is bad: the Russian gentry is clearly unable to organize its affairs. Arkady would like to help, but has no idea how. Within days he is off again, to Katya, where, he now realizes, lies his true interest.

Meanwhile the frustrated Bazarov seeks compensation from Fenichka, so Pavel decides to make his last stand, somehow. Things are in a bad shape both for the dying gentry and the nihilist in love.

That really sums it up well, Wendel.
What impresses me about Turgenev is that so much happens, so many different types of characters are portrayed in a relatively short novel. He is a very subtle writer.

Rosemarie wrote: "That really sums it up well, Wendel.
What impresses me about Turgenev is that so much happens, so many different types of characters are portrayed in a relatively short novel. He is a very subtle w..."

Also he accomplishes this by showing us a slice of life without a big plot

So well put Wendel! I love what you say about Arkady learning to accept the world.

I also completely agree about Turgenev's subtlety. I came away thinking it feels so light yet it is so deep.

So Anna Odintsova was able to pull Bazarov out of his self-imposed nihilist ideology despite himself! I figured someone would have to, sooner or later. Throughout the book he tended to stay away from women who were somewhat like himself, who had an interest in a scientific view of the world (i.e. Odintsova and Kukshina), and favor those who are unlike himself--ones who appreciate music and poetry (Katya) or who are not intellectual or artistic at all (Fenichka).

I also figured there would be a clash between Bazarov and Pavel, since they are the characters who represent the two extremes in the novel: materialism and a romanticism. I was not expecting it to be so dramatic as a duel, though!

And Arkady is beginning to see through Bazarov's unworkable philosophy.

I don't like how Bazarov treats his parents. He should be making more of an effort to visit them.

Gyoza wrote: "So Anna Odintsova was able to pull Bazarov out of his self-imposed nihilist ideology despite himself! I figured someone would have to, sooner or later. Throughout the book he tended to stay away fr..."

I didn't like the way he treated his parents either. It seemed as if his parents needed to change to fit into his view of how it should be.

I didn't see that at all. While Bazarov wasn't the best son on earth, he isn't embarrassed by their lack of education and lack of culture and sophistication. After all, he brings - at that time - his best friend to meet them. He never mocks them.

He isn't home much - much like many young people who have to find their own life away from their families. If that's his sin, then the vast majority of young people commit the same sin.

Wendel wrote: "Bazarov has found his equal and now his violent streak translates into passion. But while Madame Odintsov is fascinated, she fears this vehemence: "peace is better than anything else in the world"...."

Is he violent? I don't see Bazarov as violent as all. Does he want society to change? Yes, but I don't see him creating chaos or even civil disobedience. His rebellion centers on ideas.

I don't know why I'm defending him so much - he's not that likable. But he's also not a villain, and if he is meant to be, then the author didn't do a very good job in constructing him as one.

I don't like Bazarov but I don't think he's evil--he's young, arrogant and actually inexperienced in relationships. He considers himself an intellectual, a man of science, a new man. It is too bad that he dies, because it would have been interesting to see how he changes with age. Arkady, despite his initial hero worship of B., is much more in touch with his feelings and the world around him.

Rosemarie wrote: "I don't like Bazarov but I don't think he's evil--he's young, arrogant and actually inexperienced in relationships. He considers himself an intellectual, a man of science, a new man. It is too bad ..."

But we have more than enough Arkady's in the world - almost everyone is an Arkady, just going with the flow. We need the Bazarov's of the world, people who think differently, unconventionally.

What Bazarov believes in is quite mainstream today. New then. Conventional now. The idea that the only thing that is real is the natural world, and the rest is nothing. We name it differently - imagined constructs or imagined realities - but it is there on every college campus. I start all my classes with those ideas.

The only way we got there were people that Bazarov represented - people who thought differently, didn't go with the flow.

Which is probably why he doesn't annoy me even though he isn't portrayed as a sympathetic character. But he isn't meant to be sympathetic...he's meant to be someone - as Thoreau would say - "friction" against the machine, or in other words, against the establishment and conventional thought.

He doesn't accomplish it, but that doesn't matter. The idea is now out there.

Lynnm wrote: "I didn't see that at all. While Bazarov wasn't the best son on earth, he isn't embarrassed by their lack of education and lack of culture and sophistication. After all, he brings - at that time - h..."

His mother is afraid to even talk to him for fear of upsetting him. He tells his father not to show emotions. That seems to me that he was making his parents fit his nihilistic views.

Deborah wrote: "Lynnm wrote: "I didn't see that at all. While Bazarov wasn't the best son on earth, he isn't embarrassed by their lack of education and lack of culture and sophistication. After all, he brings - at..."

Yes, that is what bothered me the most about how he treated his parents. Also, while I agree that most young adults will naturally spend little time with their parents during the years when they are preoccupied with their educations, getting started in a career, or establishing a family of their own, isn't it a bit extreme for them not to visit their parents for 3 years straight, then grudgingly spend 3 days with them? Might make sense if one were estranged from one's parents for some reason, but there doesn't appear to have been any family problems in Bazarov's case. Bazarov's father is much like Nikolai, making an effort to understand his son and his new ideas; his mother is a kind, old fashioned woman who obviously misses her son terribly. The nihilist position that says that the material world is all there is has no room for family ties, any more than it does for romantic attachments.