Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Dostoevsky, Brothers Karamazov
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Translations
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Interesting article on Russian translations, but talks mostly about Tolstoy: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2016/...
Wow interesting Patrice! I have read Garnett version of BK before and just bought Pevear because of all the hype. Hopefully I'll like it just as much!
Patrice wrote: "When I read this for a class I dutifully bought the assigned edition, Pevear and Volokhonsky. After a week I bit the bullet and bought the Garnett translation. It's just so much more enjoyable."Me, too. I turned back to Garnett after reading P&V's Anna Karenina.
To be fair, I heard PV was awful with AK but great with the other primary 19th century Russian novels. I kept with Garnett for AK for that reason.
Dianne wrote: "To be fair, I heard PV was awful with AK but great with the other primary 19th century Russian novels. I kept with Garnett for AK for that reason."Oh, that explains it. I already got the Ignat Avsey translation, but I should try PV for the other Russian novels, then.
I could be wrong! That's just what I had read, and unfortunately, I totally forget where!
Dianne wrote: "To be fair, I heard PV was awful with AK but great with the other primary 19th century Russian novels. I kept with Garnett for AK for that reason."Interesting, Dianne. The only Russian literature I have read so far has been PV's translation of Anna Karenina (and I chose PV because I heard it was excellent), but I felt like something was off somehow - the way the characters spoke, I think. I didn't know at the time if it was due to the translation, or it was actually close to the way Russians spoke. In the end, I didn't care much for AK, but I feel like I should give it another shot. So, perhaps a different translator next time.
while I didn't find this particularly helpful in selecting a translation, it was interesting! http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/200...
Dianne wrote: "while I didn't find this particularly helpful in selecting a translation, it was interesting! http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/200..."
Thank you for this article, Dianne. Now I'm less puzzled by the somewhat crude and awkward narrative of PV's AK. I never imagined that Tolstoy worte crudely on purpose. I guess that PV delivered the tone perfectly then. I DO think that it may be better to try lots of other translators as I agree with Brodsky. Reading different authors through the same translator might give you the feeling that you are just getting the tone of the translator, not the individual authors.
Dianne wrote: "while I didn't find this particularly helpful in selecting a translation, it was interesting! http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/200..."
Was glad to read Hemingway's comments on Chekhov, because one of the possibilities we're considering for our holiday period reading, when we try to do things that will fit comfortably around holiday festivities and parties rather than a major work, is some of Chekhov's short stories. (Don't count on that, because we have other possible ideas, but Hemingway may have moved that up a notch on the list!)
Any thoughts on audio versions? It looks like there are at least four unabridged recordings (and several other abridged and dramatic versions.) I will be reading P&V but might listen to the Garnett as well because I can get it from the library.
I have a total phobia of audio and electronic books, so no idea! Maybe someday I'll get with the times. The Simon Vance reading by hovel audio gets great reviews though I see
Thomas wrote: "Any thoughts on audio versions? It looks like there are at least four unabridged recordings (and several other abridged and dramatic versions.) I will be reading P&V but might listen to the Garnett..."I would lilke to listen to an audio version, as I sometimes don't know how to pronounce these Russian names.. :-) I end up giving them pet nicknames that I CAN pronounce in my head..
Thomas wrote: "Any thoughts on audio versions? It looks like there are at least four unabridged recordings (and several other abridged and dramatic versions.) I will be reading P&V but might listen to the Garnett..."I got the P&V recording from my library, but not very far into it. I find listening to light fiction is easy enough, but BK is a different thing, since I can't slow down and re-read passages, and it's very inconvenient to take notes. Still, I'm listening to it on my daily walk as a back-up, but reading (Garnett since it's what I have) for the real understanding.
Everyman wrote: " I find listening to light fiction is easy enough, but BK is a different thing, since I can't slow down and re-read passages"I'm with you there! With more demanding reads I much prefer the book. The mechanics of reading speed, re-reading a passage, stopping and pondering, etc., is much easier done when having the written word in front of you.
Which translation? The all important question. Do you go for easy readability or a more gritty authentic(?) rendering?https://www.reddit.com/r/books/commen...
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-bes...
http://ask.metafilter.com/205083/Best...
My libraries have Garnett, Pevear, McDuff and one by Bantam Classics which doesn't mention a specific translator so I'm really spoilt for choice :-)
Nicola wrote: "My libraries have ... one by Bantam Classics which doesn't mention a specific translator..."That must be Andrew R. MacAndrew.
Thomas wrote: "Any thoughts on audio versions? It looks like there are at least four unabridged recordings (and several other abridged and dramatic versions.) I will be reading P&V but might listen to the Garnett..."I just started listening to the audiobook last night. I like to listen and read with the big books, it gives me a chance to pick up on things that I might have missed.
http://www.audible.com.au/pd/Classics...
Last time I read Garnett's translation of BK, a few passages into the book, I became confused whether I was reading Tolstoy or Dostoevsky. It was a weird feeling...So I decided against Garnett, and bought PV and McDuff. Unfortunately, I can't find audiobook versions of these at Audible.
Everyman wrote: "I'm listening to it on my daily walk as a back-up, but reading (Garnett since it's what I have) for the real understanding. ..."I'm not planning on listening to this one, but since you mentioned walking and listening, I don't know if I've mentioned it before, but one of the most enjoyable things is to listen to Plato's dialogues while walking. I can't put my finger on why, but maybe it is something to do with the back and forth of walking combined with the back and forth between Socrates and his students. My mind never wanders as it does when I try to listen to big books elaborate language. I reckon many audio books would be better heard while walking than while doing other things that may involve more distractions.
I am just finishing book 2 of the Garnett translation and finding it quite acceptable. I have noticed a few odd awkward phrases in places but otherwise it is very easy to follow.
Nemo wrote: "So I decided against Garnett, and bought PV and McDuff. Unfortunately, I can't find audiobook versions of these at Audible...."If I am in the mode to follow along an audiobook with an actual text, I actually prefer two different translators, if not drastically different. It is like they augment each other.
If they are too different, it doesn't work for me. And I do play with various mixtures between reading and listening.
Just got my book, the Garnett translation. This will be my first read ever of any Russian literature.
Chris wrote: "Just got my book, the Garnett translation. This will be my first read ever of any Russian literature."Russian literature is, at least in my view, quite a bit different from English and French literature of the same period. Will be interested to hear, as we get into the work, whether you agree.
Also just got my book. Will be reading in Portuguese though. I don´t think it will affect the discussion, but if I comment a character´s name a little bit different you know why
Luiz wrote: "Also just got my book. Will be reading in Portuguese though. I don´t think it will affect the discussion, but if I comment a character´s name a little bit different you know why"Happy you're here, Luiz. A few more variations on the five or six nicknames and diminutives each character has will just make this more entertaining. :-)
Thomas wrote: "A few more variations on the five or six nicknames and diminutives each character has will just make this more entertaining. :-) "The German version I'm reading has these in abundance :)
Thomas wrote: "Luiz wrote: "Also just got my book. Will be reading in Portuguese though. I don´t think it will affect the discussion, but if I comment a character´s name a little bit different you know why"Happ..."
Haha. The one that caught my eye is that your "Alyosha" here is "Aliocha". But the pronunciation is the same.
For those familiar with multiple English translations, which one would you go back to?
You will get many varied answers as it really is a personal choice, i.e. the translation that works best is the one that resonates most with your own linguistic realm (in terms of syntax and tone) and reading preferences. For now I will always go with Constance Garnett. I suggest that you look up different translations (or go to the library) and sample the first few pages of each and get a sense of what you prefer. An alternate approach is to try to be as close to the Russian phrasing and words as possible (even though it may clash with your own realm of the English language). It seems as if P&V are in that specific niche.
Kerstin wrote: "For those familiar with multiple English translations, which one would you go back to?"Why do you ask, are you planning to re-read it in English?
I read PV's translation and enjoyed it, and would probably use McDuff's translation for Penguin, if I ever re-read it, which is very unlikely at this point. McDuff is said to strike a balance between accuracy and readability, i.e. between PV and Garnett.
Haaze wrote: "I suggest that you look up different translations (or go to the library) and sample the first few pages of each and get a sense of what you prefer."
That's what I would do too, if I know nothing about the translations beforehand.
Nemo wrote: "Kerstin wrote: "For those familiar with multiple English translations, which one would you go back to?"Why do you ask, are you planning to re-read it in English?
I read PV's translation and enj..."
I am just curious. Reading literature with the group I have to straddle both languages anyway. I had a kindle Garnet translation to be able to participate.
Kerstin wrote: "...Reading literature with the group I have to straddle both languages anyway. I had a kindle Garnet translation to be able to participate...."Does that imply you were reading in Russian? Given you are familiar with Garnet's English, can you comment on how language "feel" mpacted the experience.
Some say Garnet's English corresponds to Tolstoy's Russian in the embedding of certain unstated social "norms" of the time period. (I can't think of specific example at the moment, but have seen articles that attempt to explore the issue.)
Lily wrote: "Does that imply you were reading in Russian?"I read a German translation. For the most part both translations were fairly similar. One always gets a deeper and more natural understanding in the native language. For a substantial work like this I am glad I made the effort to have both. And there were some passages that felt flat to me when reading the English, and I ended up not commenting.
Kerstin wrote: "Lily wrote: "Does that imply you were reading in Russian?"I read a German translation. For the most part both translations were fairly similar. One always gets a deeper and more natural understan..."
Thanks for your response, Kerstin. Sometimes (especially for Tolstoy) my favorite way of "reading" is to listen to one translation and follow with another. Even though being able to read it in its native language would be a wonderful skill to have, lacking it, I find two translations often suggest nuances in their contrast with each other. (You obviously played two languages off against each other!)
Perhaps the best reviewed recent translation is that by Richard Pevear and Larissa Volokhonsky.
I have zero knowledge of Russian and no basis at all for deciding which translations may be better or worse. But we probably have people here who do have well developed knowledge of and ideas on translations that they're willing to share. If that's you, let us hear from you.