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The Book Thief
Thread 4 - The Meaning in Max's Stories
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"The Word Shaker" is meant to show the power words truly have. It starts off with Hitler, and how his ideas became actions and it all started with the words said. Hitlers words eventually led the foundation for the Nazi Program, proving words can create good OR evil. He pointed out Word Shakers understand the power of words and use that in order to succeed in their goals. Liesel is seen as a Word Shaker, and I think this is important to the overall understanding of the novel.
The first parallel I'd like to point out is the significance of the book Mein Kampf to Max and how his own story, The Standover Man, was written over those words. First, Max erased Mein Kampf's story by painting over the pages in white. I noticed that the color white was first introduced with the death of Liesel's brother- could the color be symbolic of a rebirth within Max? With the 'white death' of Liesel's brother, her life changed forever by being sent to live with the Hubermanns on her own. Now that Max is living in secrecy and safety with the Hubermanns, he composes an extremely meaningful story by painting over the book, or rather, prop, that saved his life with white paint. The story he writes speaks to the theme that I wrote about in another thread, survivor's guilt. Max has been looked down upon his whole life, yet he is the one who has been given the opportunity to survive- something he and Liesel have in common.
Max's book "The Standover Man" is powerful in many ways. The book starts off as the man being corrupt, than transitions the "man" into Liesel, which is more of a safe haven. However i am confused as to what the last page represents, does anyone have any ideas?
Also, the title "The Standover Man" and its closing sentence, "the best standover man I've ever known was not a man at all..." carry so much weight. Does anyone have their own analysis of why Max uses the word 'standover'? I feel like at first he makes it seem negative, but when he refers to Liesel as a standover man, he makes it seem almost positive. Is a Standover Man a protector? A superior? A friend?
In my opinion the story about the word shakers is to show just how powerful words can be by making it more literal. instead of just stating that someone's words had an impact, Max creates word shakers who climb up high in the trees and drop words on the forest in order to maintain peace. In addition, the Führer went around the entire nation of Germany to plant words as if they are seeds or plants. this use to physical representation creates a picture in the readers mind and help to emphasis his points. using this technique, it always for Liesel to value the meaning of the power her words can hold and stays with her throughout the novel.
Emma wrote: "Max's book "The Standover Man" is powerful in many ways. The book starts off as the man being corrupt, than transitions the "man" into Liesel, which is more of a safe haven. However i am confused a..." I posted my comment the exact same time as you did! I had the same question- I'd like to hear our group members' thoughts on it! I think that maybe Max was referring to Standover Men as people he thought were better than him throughout his life- but when he acknowledges Liesel he means to say that Liesel has a better heart than he'd ever known someone to be able to have?
i agree with you anna!! again the novel uses the time period to emphasize a message. Hitler was known for his amazing speeches and how he could convince and manipulate a nation using only his words. this is a perfect example to back up the message in Max's stories
Julianna C wrote: "The first parallel I'd like to point out is the significance of the book Mein Kampf to Max and how his own story, The Standover Man, was written over those words. First, Max erased Mein Kampf's sto..."Julianna, i never dug deep into the symbolism of the color white on "The Standover Man" connecting it to the death of her brother, but now that you mention it i completely agree on the fact that it is symbolic to the rebirth of Max. Liesel was torn apart from her family and in the process had witnessed her own brothers death. The Hubermann's although a foster parents became real family to her, as well as Max. In a way he professes a brother like figure which was unknown to Liesel before.
Emma wrote: "Julianna C wrote: "The first parallel I'd like to point out is the significance of the book Mein Kampf to Max and how his own story, The Standover Man, was written over those words. First, Max eras..." That makes so much sense... a brother like figure in the Hubermann household that she was originally supposed to have, but Death took away that chance. Liesel's brother was supposed to live with her in her foster home, but his white death was the reason why he couldn't- now a man who has cheated death is living with her and the Hubermann's and he does possess almost a brotherly relationship with Liesel, which he shows his gratitude for written over white pages. White = rebirth = brother????
In response to Emma and Julianna, I could not agree more. That is a parallel I didn't realize while reading, but now it makes a lot more sense to me! I do think Max acts as a brother figure in the novel, due to Liesel looking for that missing figure in her life. This is why they have such a strong bond in the book.
AnnaClaire wrote: ""The Word Shaker" is meant to show the power words truly have. It starts off with Hitler, and how his ideas became actions and it all started with the words said. Hitlers words eventually led the f..."I had to post to agree upon your connection with Max and Liesel's brother. I continue to think about colors, and wasn't able to put a color on that moment in the book, but I do believe that Max is basically the symbolic entity of her brother. However, I have to ask, are you saying that by coloring the pages white that is the connection between Max and Liesel's brother? or is it that he is in their house?
Luke I think you meant to comment in response to my post!! I thought that first off by painting over the words of Mein Kampf was symbolic- that book was essentially the key to Max's safety. However, by painting over the words and writing his own story develops Max as a character searching for the meaning of his life within himself. I thought that his usage of white paint was symbolic because it could be looked at as a symbol of rebirth- after all, it was the color Death saw when he "retrieved" Liesel's brother in the beginning of the book, and now Max could be looked at as almost a reincarnation of a brotherly figure to her.
Max's book "Word Shaker" represents the rise of Nazism in Germany as well Liesel and Max's friendship. It is obvious in the beginning Max is referring to Hitler when he states that a small strange man would "make himself a small, strange mustache" and "he would one day rule the world" (445). This man believed that he could gain a large following with just the power of words, and symbols. This represents the swastika and Hitler preaching Jewish hatred. The book states the man in fact he abused this power, using it for evil. Later in the book, Liesel who is symbolized as a "word shaker" because "she knew how powerless a person could be without words" meets Max who is described as the "man despised by her homeland" (Germany) and their friendship blossoms into a tree that even the Führer can't even knock down.
Emma wrote: "Max's book "The Standover Man" is powerful in many ways. The book starts off as the man being corrupt, than transitions the "man" into Liesel, which is more of a safe haven. However i am confused a..."To me, 'The Standover Man' is a bit allegorical of Death overlooking Liesel at the cemetery. From pages 12 to 15, the scene of burying Liesel's brother and her taking the handbook, Death is that overbearing, somewhat protectorate of a superior. This is reflected in Max and Liesel, because Max writes "It makes me understand that the best standover man I've ever known is not a man at all..." (page 12 of Standover Man). Now of course he is talking about Liesel - I think - but Death is not a man at all, but as Emma responded to me in Thread 3, reality.
Julianna C wrote: "Emma wrote: "Max's book "The Standover Man" is powerful in many ways. The book starts off as the man being corrupt, than transitions the "man" into Liesel, which is more of a safe haven. However i ..."Oh yeah I did mean to respond to you Julianna LOL!! To answer your question about Max's "standover men", I believe that he has never been able to trust. I think that life has not been particularly fair to Max, and it's very hard for him to trust, so for a person like Liesel to have such a kind heart is quite shocking to him in general. If his father were still around, I think that his trust issues would not be as bad, but Liesel and the Hubermann's are who he has, and he is now happy. When you say "is a standover man a protector, superior, or friends?" I think it is all. I know that sounds corny, but take Liesel, for example. She does have superiority over him, she does have a protecting ora, and she is a very good friend. Yet also take Death, who may not be seen as any. Death, in theory, has superiority over everybody, he seems to protect those he "collects" or allots time, and I see Death as a friend. Maybe not so much a friend, but a companion. Does anyone else agree with this?
Luke wrote: "Julianna C wrote: "Emma wrote: "Max's book "The Standover Man" is powerful in many ways. The book starts off as the man being corrupt, than transitions the "man" into Liesel, which is more of a saf..." Luke, I agree with you that Death can been seen as a "standover man" because he can be seen as a protector, superior, or companion. A quote I found that perfectly demonstrates this is the following, "Please believe me when I tell you I picked up every soul that day as if it were newly born. I even kissed a few weary, poisoned cheeks... I watched their love visions and freed them from their fear" (350). Here Death is seen as superior to humans because he is taking their souls away, as well as a protector because he is "freeing" them. Also, Death kissing the few souls that were weak shows that he can be seen as a companion as well.
Erica wrote: "Luke wrote: "Julianna C wrote: "Emma wrote: "Max's book "The Standover Man" is powerful in many ways. The book starts off as the man being corrupt, than transitions the "man" into Liesel, which is ..."I agree with this as well, i think Death can can be considered a standover man. Max says " the best standover man Ive ever known is not a man at all", in reference to Liesel, he sees her as a safe place and a companion. With this definition of a standover man, Death also fits because he can be interpreted as a companion when taking in to mind his sympathetic nature towards the human souls he takes. When Max wrote this story on the pages of Mein Kampf, i think it shows how his and Liesel's bond and companionship is stronger than Hitler and the Nazi party, who terrorize Max into hiding.
In response to Luke, Death may be like a companion. However, I feel that Hans is the better example of a protector. He gains Liesel's trust from the beginning, and starts to teach her how to read and plays the accordion for her as a source of comfort for her. Though Death is personified to be like a guardian in some ways, the characters don't even acknowledge his presence around him, let alone consider him a "Standover Man". Who else do you feel are good companions in the story?
Going back to how Max wrote over Mein Kampf, is it symbolic not just in the color that he painted over the words, but the fact that he did that in general? Is he saying his words serve more importance than Hitler's by ridding of Hitler's work to create his own?
Yes Brianna I think so. The whole story of standover man is about how people throughout Max's life have got in his way and "stood over" him. Max taking Mein kampf and writing over it symbolizes max finally being the "stand over man" by disregarding Hitler's words and standing over them (by writing over them not literally) and writing his own story. This is a way max stands up for himself and shows how he disagrees with Hitler
Interesting idea Brianna!! I think by him painting over the book, he was making a point that his words were in fact more important then Hitlers. The book tells of many things Max and Liesel have in common, and in a way by painting of the Mein Kampf, Max is stating their journeys are more significant Hitlers writing.
In the Stand over man (224) Max is represented as a bird, the is due to his hair looking like feathers. This is known from the quote "his hair is like feathers" (216). Why do you think Zusak chose to represent Max as a bird?
Max wrote his own story over Hitler's as a way of coping with his survivor's guilt, and to further his unique bond with Liesel. On page 208, Max says "To live. Living was living. The price was guilt and shame." Even so, he continues to read Mein Kampf, because he knows that Hitler is his superior. However, once he is shown empathy for this hidden guilt by Liesel, who asks him about his nightmares, he realizes that not all those superior to him are evil. As a way of standing up to the evil Standover man, Hitler, he writes over Mein Kampf as a way of teaching himself that his life isn't completely worthless with the help of Liesel.
In response to Pat, maybe Max was depicted as a bird because in many ways, birds represent freedom. Of course Max is not free, as he's hiding for his life in the basement. However, he for sure comes across as someone with a free spirit. He's imaginative and in that way, he is free like a bird. Maybe that's a far stretch, but it's an idea!
There has been a lot of discussion about the bond between Liesel and Max, especially with the books Max wrote. Im curious to know what their similarities in personality as well as past struggles make you the reader feel?
AnnaClaire wrote: "There has been a lot of discussion about the bond between Liesel and Max, especially with the books Max wrote. Im curious to know what their similarities in personality as well as past struggles ma..."For me it's the symbolism of Liesel's brothers death, and how that is reflective through Max's stay in the Hubermann home
I think it's a really interesting comparison- They're different in almost every aspect. Liesel is a young girl, practices a "safe" religion, didn't leave her family by choice. Max is an adult male, a Jew, and was forced to leave his family for survival reasons- not necessarily his choice, but he knew what he had to do. However, they both have nightmares of their past, and feel comforted by one another when discussing them. Anyone have any thoughts on Max and Liesel's nightmares?
Julianna C wrote: "The first parallel I'd like to point out is the significance of the book Mein Kampf to Max and how his own story, The Standover Man, was written over those words. First, Max erased Mein Kampf's sto..."wonderful post!!! The white/black color motif runs throughout the story.
Mckaela wrote: "In my opinion the story about the word shakers is to show just how powerful words can be by making it more literal. instead of just stating that someone's words had an impact, Max creates word shak..."well done!
Julianna C wrote: "Luke I think you meant to comment in response to my post!! I thought that first off by painting over the words of Mein Kampf was symbolic- that book was essentially the key to Max's safety. However..."Similar to Liesel, Max is a "book thief." He stole the book's original intention and turned into something completely different.
Brianna wrote: "In response to Luke, Death may be like a companion. However, I feel that Hans is the better example of a protector. He gains Liesel's trust from the beginning, and starts to teach her how to read a..."How is Death a guardian... isn't he more of an observer?
Julianna C wrote: "I think it's a really interesting comparison- They're different in almost every aspect. Liesel is a young girl, practices a "safe" religion, didn't leave her family by choice. Max is an adult male,..."I think they have more in common than not. Both a torn away from their families and happen to find solace in words (books). Both are strong individuals who are determined to survive and , as you noted, both have suffered trauma that haunts them.
This thread is my favorite of all four! Many of you engaged in full discussion and were able to dig through to some real analysis. I loved watching you work through the ideas/claims (esp the white/max/brother posts). Don't be afraid to disagree or to challenge another's idea. For example, you could say, "What makes you think that?" or "I'm not sure if I completely agree, but what about..." The post referring to Death possibly being the standover man was interesting, but too much agreement kept the thread from its potential. I wonder what other possibilities we could have found? Also, with the white color thread, it would have been nice to explore other color motifs found.
There are a few in this group, in my opinion, who did not finish reading (if they read at all). It is clear because posts only slightly reference the book and are, for the most part, repeating information previously stated. It's a shame because this conversation could have really went into some depth. The basic/repetitive post held the potential back.
If we hit our potential next time, this group could easily earn a 100. Everyone must read, post often, cite the text, challenge each other.
Mckaela wrote: "& it allows for *** god im sorry"There is an edit button when you use your computer to post. I just used it 3 times! ;)
When discussing symbolism in "The Book Thief," it is impossible to not mention the stories created by Max. "The Word Shaker" and "The Standover Man" are short stories created by Max that contain, in my opinion, some of the most meaningful messages in the book, so I'd like do ask you guys some questions about them. How do you interpret what these stories represent? Do you think it's significant that "The Standover Man" was created with ripped out pages of "Mein Kampf"; if so, why is it significant? Feel free to comment on how the stories represent a character's emotions, and also try to provide a historical parallel for the stories.
I suppose our goal for these threads is to emulate a discussion we would have in real life, so for our final thread let's try to do that as much as we can. In a conversation in real life, you wouldn't cut in and leave someone's question unanswered, so by responding to previous posts before leading into a new topic with your post, we can hopefully imitate a classroom discussion.