SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

As a long-time fantasy fan, here is a list of some of the top series I would recommend for the mature/advanced reader. These are not necessarily recommended for readers new to fantasy or for younger readers, as some of the topics are quite mature, themes complex, scenes explicit and action graphic. This list is in no particular order.

1. Let’s start with an easy one – the Dresden Files by Jim Butcher. Jim Butcher writes with a light touch and Harry Dresden, his wizard PI is laugh-out-loud funny. Of all the series on this list, this is probably the easiest one to start with. But make no mistake, as the series progresses the characters can turn quite dark and the jokes that were so prevalent in the first few books become less frequent. One of my favourite series and one of the few that I’ve read more than once, you will love Harry Dresden, cheer him on as he fights to protect his city and wince as you find out what he has to sacrifice. I cannot recommend it enough. This series can be classified as modern/contemporary/urban fantasy, rather than classic or epic fantasy.

2. The Night Angel series by Brent Weeks. This series is dark fantasy at its best. Kylar Stern grows up in the slums where life is hard, brutal and often cut short. Desperate to survive, he becomes an apprentice to a master assassin – a man feared for good reason. In this world nobody survives unscarred and there are no guarantees. If Kylar passes his training he will gain the power to change the world – but he will have to become as brutal and as merciless as the world he lives in.

3. The Demon Cycle by Peter V. Brett. In this world, demons are real and they want a lot more than your soul. Hunting at night, demons prowl for blood while people huddle in their homes protected by flimsy wards. One mistake will cost not just your life, but also the lives of everybody you love. Desperate, battered, bloody and beaten, one boy will learn how to fight back and grow up to be the Painted Man. But will his power be enough? Will one man, no matter how powerful, be enough to stand between the human world and the demon hordes gathering to slaughter and feed?

4. The Kingkiller Chronicles by Patrick Rothfuss. The epitome of excellent epic fantasy. Kvothe, our hero, tells the tale of his rise to power and how he became the most notorious wizard the world has ever seen. Filled with magic and mystery, this is a masterful tale with characters who will become real to you and keep you turning the pages to find out what happens next. But be warned! The final book of the trilogy has yet to be published and you will end up one of the Rothfuss ranters, haunting Patrick on social media to beg him to write faster.

5. The Drenai series by David Gemmell. In one word: Legend. David Gemmell earned the title King of Heroic Fantasy for a reason. His characters are heroes in the true sense of the word – larger than life, scarred and flawed, neither perfect nor innocent. In fact, that is a recurring theme in his books – if you spend your life fighting darkness and evil, you will risk becoming what you are fighting. His heroes are legends, but they are not angels. From Waylander the Slayer to Skilgannon the Damned and the Deathwalker himself, Druss, Captain of the Axe, the only guarantee is you will never forget them. After Jim Butcher’s Dresden Files this would probably be second on my list to start with, as Gemmell has a sparse writing style, ignoring long descriptions in favour of fast-flowing action scenes. This ensures his books read effortlessly.

6. The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant by Stephen Donaldson. You are either going to love this series or hate it. Thomas Covenant is one of the most controversial heroes in fantasy and for good reason – he starts out by doing something that is unforgivable. Yet, if you keep on reading, you find out that this is exactly what makes this series so great. We all make mistakes – some more horrible than others. Is it possible to atone for them? Can we, in fact, redeem ourselves? Only you can decide. But stop after the second trilogy – maybe even after the first.

7. The Acts of Caine by Matthew Woodring Stover. I have to confess – this series has its ups and downs and it’s not for everyone. At times more sci-fi than fantasy, at times pure metaphysical speculation, and published over a span of nearly 15 years, there are as many times you will find yourself wanting to skip pages as times when you can’t turn the pages fast enough. But, when the books get good they get VERY good and overall I was quite pleased that I stuck with it. However, I will forgive you if you decide to give this one a miss.

8. The Dark Tower by Stephen King. Not only is this mainly for mature readers (as the name of the author should suggest) but it will also be enjoyed much more by readers familiar with King’s other works like The Stand and Eyes of the Dragon, as he has created a magnificent symphony of all his works, referring to characters and events that took place in many of his books. Part myth, part fantasy, this is Stephen King’s crowning achievement, a work that will draw you in and change the way you look at fantasy. And forever after you will remember the best opening line to any book ever written: “The man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed.” Dare you follow as well?

I have specifically avoided certain series for personal, subjective reasons. The Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind and The Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan are decent, in my opinion, but dragged on much too long. Were they trilogies, I would have recommended them but I found myself losing interest as the series continued.

Raymond E Feist, David and Leigh Eddings, Anne McCaffrey, Piers Anthony et al are for younger readers and fans of lighter fantasy, in my honest but humble opinion. Brandon Sanderson’s Mistborn series is excellent and highly enjoyable, but I believe it can be enjoyed by fantasy fans of all ages so I did not place it on my list for mature/advanced readers. Same for Ursula K. LeGuin's Wizard of Earthsea books.

I am not a fan of George RR Martin as I consider him a great world-builder, but not such an exciting writer. The Raven’s Shadow series by Anthony Ryan started out very strong but ended leaving me feeling disappointed. I hated the Broken Empire series by Mark Lawrence. Hated it, hated it, hated it.

Feel welcome to add your own thoughts and recommend authors you think should be added to this list. Oh, and enjoy your reading!

Disclaimer: I am a voracious reader, but by no means do I claim that I have read every single piece of fiction ever published. My opinion is subjective and based on my personal tastes and preferences. I like fantasy with lots of action and a touch of humour - so if you think my selection is not quite diverse or representative enough, you are probably right.

I have top agree with many of your choices, although I as far as storytelling, the first three books of ASOIF were excellent.
I would also like to add Brian Staveley's Chronicle of the Unhewn was excellent.
On the lighter side, but again good storytelling is Michael J Sullivan's Riyria Revelations.

An obvious addition in my mind is Joe Abercrombie and his First Law series.
Another one: Greatcoats series by Sebastien de Castell.

Also, since you've included Dresden Files, which means urban fantasy qualifies, I propose Alex Verus series by Benedict Jacka.

I'd agree with most of your choices but I would need to add:
The Shannara Cycle by Terry Brooks
The Realm of the Elderlings by Robin Hobb

Dave

I can't help but think that any list like this which doesn't include Octavia Butler is inadequate.

Which brings me to a more general point: sex and violence are all very well and good, but that's like the 21-year-old's version of "adult themes." Racism, politics, religion, morality, hypocrisy, health (both physical and mental), sexual assault, family dynamics, hope versus cynicism... these are truly mature topics.

I definitely agree with Trike in this case.

I haven't really read enough of this category to judge, but of what I've read...

The Broken Earth trilogy by N.K. Jemisin starting with The Fifth Season is the most "mature" fantasy I've ever read (by Trike's definition as well as any other) and would top my list.

The The Black Company by Glen Cook and the books that come after it are very dark and mature in more than one way. I liked the series but wasn't totally in love with it.

Leon wrote: "I am not a fan of George RR Martin as I consider him a great world-builder, but not such an exciting writer."

ASOIAF would make my list, not so much because of being the most "dark" or "mature" but just because I love it. This one might be a matter of personal taste.

David wrote: "The Shannara Cycle by Terry Brooks"

I do not remember these being "dark" or "mature" at all. Then again, I read them 20 years ago when I was a kid, so something might have gone over my head.

Trike wrote: "I can't help but think that any list like this which doesn't include Octavia Butler is inadequate."

Sigh.

I never said this was the complete list. In fact, I specifically stated in my post that “…by no means do I claim that I have read every single piece of fiction ever published.” I also added: "Feel welcome to add your own thoughts and recommend authors you think should be added to this list." But thank you for pointing out the obvious.

"Which brings me to a more general point: sex and violence are all very well and good, but that's like the 21-year-old's version of "adult themes." Racism, politics, religion, morality, hypocrisy, health (both physical and mental), sexual assault, family dynamics, hope versus cynicism... these are truly mature topics."

Really? So are you saying sex and violence are not adult themes? Or are you saying your themes are more adult? Because EVERY. SINGLE. TOPIC you listed was covered by one or more of the authors I listed.

To Frank:

Thank you. I've tried both Staveley and Sullivan, but just couldn't get into them. I might be partly to blame, because I tried them while I was going through a Brandon Sanderson phase and I kept comparing them to him, which was unfair. I still have their books, so I might give them another try this year.

To Radek:

Ah, yes, I read Abercrombie and thought the books were quite good. Amazing how he could create sympathy for quite unsympathetic characters. But after I read them I didn't feel as wowed as I did after reading my first Butcher, Rothfuss or Weeks, for instance, nor did I have an urge to go and seek out his other books, so he didn't make my list of Must-Reads.

De Castell is on my pile, so will definitely get around to him sometime this year, thank you. As for Jacka - I know it's unfair, but both he and Hearne will inevitably get compared to Butcher. They are both good, but Butcher is great (in my own, humble opinion, of course) so he made my list and they didn't.

To David:

I tried both of them and didn't get very far. I know they are both very popular so again, maybe it's just my taste. I might give them a try again some time in the future, so thank you for your suggestions.

To David:

It seems my list is quite popular amongst the Davids!

I'll check out the Broken Earth trilogy, thanks. Like you I checked out the Black Company but didn't like it enough to continue with it.

To Sarah Anne:

You agreement is noted.

To all: Thank you very much for your interest and suggestions. I know we will never all agree but I think and really hope that if we keep our comments positive and keep suggesting books and authors others might enjoy, we will all benefit from it.

I know I already have, and that is why I joined this group - to talk to other people who love fantasy as much as I do and are as passionate about it as I am.

May I ask a clarifying question? Is it that you find these books to be mature writing in that they handle heavy topics in complex, masterful ways? Or is it that they're books we wouldn't give our tween family members? Or a little of column A, a little of column B?

Allison wrote: "May I ask a clarifying question? Is it that you find these books to be mature writing in that they handle heavy topics in complex, masterful ways? Or is it that they're books we wouldn't give our t..."

Of course - I think that's a great question! In my opinion, it's a little of both. Depending on your culture, society, beliefs, etc. people have different ideas about what is mature and what is appropriate for young children, teens, tweens, and so forth.

So, in that sense, some descriptions of scenes in these books might be so graphic and explicit that you might feel your children are not ready for them (again, depending on your own personal philosophy).

In other books, the topics might simply be so complex and sophisticated that younger or less advanced readers might become bored and frustrated with the subject matter. I have another list of fantasy which I will post later for readers of all ages and levels, that are equally enjoyable but not quite so mature or advanced.

Hope that answers your question. Please feel free to ask if you have any more or my answer is not clear enough!

Thanks, I think so!

In the complex and masterful framework, I think I'd keep Sanderson's Stormlight Archive on the list. It's an accessible book, in that you can read it without giving it much thought, but it contemplates sexism, classism, racism, religion, self-sacrifice and the wide chasm (thematically appropriate!) separating fairness, equality, and justice.

In the "wouldn't want my family to know I was the reason my tween cousins found this book" category, I'd probably include The Gentleman Bastards series. As the name suggests, the language is a bit rough, the morality is questionable, and vice and loss are peppered throughout the books. I haven't finished the series yet, but unless suddenly the Gentleman Bastards have some sort of conversion, I feel pretty sure I'll continue to find them delightfully crass.

I'd probably give them Dresden before Lies of Locke Lamora. At least I don't feel treacherous for cheering Harry.

This is a good list methinks. I have not read all of the authors mentioned, Brent Weeks and Matthew Stover are alien to me at this time but I agreed with the vast majority of the thoughts behind your choice's. The first chronicles of Thomas Covenant were great but the rest were less than good. I loved David Gemmell and was sad to hear of his passing. The king of heroic fantasy in my humble opinion.
The Dark Tower series, is both magnificent in building from a very humble inception and ending on a low, but the train ride between the start and ending is, I agree, King's greatest achievement.
It is also great, and I wish to congratulate you, on creating a list that does not contain fantasy works for children. There are far to many of those. Good subject, great article, thanks again.

I found the Dresden books, actually all of Jim Butchers writing, to be subpar. He's not a particularly inventive writer, nor very engaging.

The Night Angel books I felt were definitely YA material. It's about a teen gaining powers and becoming an assassin. A bit like the Farseer Trilogy.

The Demon Cycle isn't that far different to the Night Angel. I do prefer it though.

Urgh the Drenai books. David Gemmell gets far more praise for these than deserved. They're just the same thing over and over again. No depth.

Any opinions on the following?
The Complete Malazan Book of the Fallen by Steven Erikson

A friend recommended them and being the compulsive buyer that I am I just bought the entire series but haven't read them yet.
Seems to be a mature series with a detailed and interesting world, I hope. I realize it's too late seeing as I already bought them, but the series does have ten fairly hefty books and want to "prepare" myself before I start reading.

Albert wrote: "Any opinions on the following?
The Complete Malazan Book of the Fallen by Steven Erikson

A friend recommended them and being the compulsive buyer that I am I just bo..."

This series has been on my to-read list since forever. The first book in the series is this month's pick for this club's re-read group (https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/18341797-2017-group-bookshelf-challenge-reading-calendar) so I'm looking forward to finally checking it out.

Albert wrote: "Any opinions on the following?
The Complete Malazan Book of the Fallen by Steven Erikson
"

Simply the most epic series out there. Not light reading at all. I'm doing the recommended reading order

https://www.goodreads.com/series/173946

Which encompasses a few different series. I'm currently up to Stonewielder and won't finish the currently published books until September.

You'll either be hooked and be a Malazan fan for life or hate it. To each his/her own. The OP's list I DNF's 4 of the top 5 series and the one I didn't I haven't read yet.

Scott wrote: "I'm doing the recommended reading order"

Holy crap, that's intimidating. It looks like the "other" books in that reading order have much lower review scores than the 10 "Malazan Book of the Fallen" books. Do you think the experience would be harmed much by reading the 10 "main" books first?

I was just looking at the reading list too. Gone from 10 "tomes" to 29. I love detailed epic fantasy but to jump on this bandwagon is definitely intimidating, but intriguing at the same time.

The biggest I've tackled so far is the 14 from Wheel of Time that I read in four months in 2016, with a break after every 3 books or so.

Leon, I'm curious why you suggest stopping after the first Chronicles of Thomas Covenant? I personally enjoyed the 2nd and final Chronicles just as much or more. Of course, I also think that Stephen R. Donaldson is the best fantasy writer of all time, so perhaps I'm a little biased. :)

A few more dark & mature series I feel compelled to mention:
*the Laundry Files, by Charles Stross (The Atrocity Archives).
*the Fallen Blade series, by Kelly McCullough (Broken Blade)
*the Craft Sequence, by Max Gladstone (Three Parts Dead)
*the Borden Dispatches, by Cherie Priest (Maplecroft)

Allison:

I am a huge fan of Brandon Sanderson. Personally, I love his Mistborn series the most and I've included it in my list of fantasy for all ages and levels.

Kim:

Thank you for your comments. Of course, I completely, vociferously and vehemently disagree with every single one of your statements.

Albert, David and Scott:

I tried the first Malazan book once and couldn't get past the first couple of chapters. However, so many people say it's completely worth it if you just make the effort. Maybe I'll try again some day.

Steve:

It's just personal, of course, but I think the first trilogy was the best one and didn't like the last chronicles very much. I thought the second chronicles were quite good, but they didn't blow me away as much as the first series.


ladymurmur:

Thanks for the suggestions - I will definitely check them out.

David wrote: "Scott wrote: "I'm doing the recommended reading order"

Holy crap, that's intimidating. It looks like the "other" books in that reading order have much lower review scores than the 10 "Malazan Book..."

I think the Malazan Empire books are worth reading. The Tales of Bauchelain and Korbal Broach books are macabre British humor type tales. I enjoyed them but they aren't 100% necessary. By the time you get done you'll want to read Path to Ascendancy and Kharkanas.

Albert wrote: "I was just looking at the reading list too. Gone from 10 "tomes" to 29. I love detailed epic fantasy but to jump on this bandwagon is definitely intimidating, but intriguing at the same time.

The ..."

I've read the entire Wheel of Time and did it in a similar time frame to you. IMO Malazan is much better.

If you're going to take on the Malazan world three musts.

The re-reads for each book. Especially with the first book Gardens of the Moon it helps you stay on track. The author dumps you in the middle of the world and it can be daunting.

http://www.tor.com/series/malazan-rer...

Malazan wiki, just to sure to watch out for series spoilers.

http://malazan.wikia.com/wiki/Malazan...

And the recommended series order

https://www.goodreads.com/series/173946

Second Malazan Book of the Fallen, Thomas Covenant, anything Abercrombie and the Black Company.

Also:

Mark Lawrence's The Broken Empire
Richard K. Morgan's A Land Fit for Heroes
K.J. Parker's fantasy series (Fencer, Engineer, Scavenger)
Paul Kearney's Monarchies of God
Mary Gentle's Ash: A Secret History

And if it doesn't have to be classic / martial fantasy: China Miéville, Jeff VanderMeer, John Crowley and Tim Powers

fully agree with Leon on the 2nd Thomas Covenant series, it was so much slower and took me ages to finish, with me reading other books in between.

Kateb wrote: "fully agree with Leon on the 2nd Thomas Covenant series, it was so much slower and took me ages to finish, with me reading other books in between."

I also agree. I loved the first series, thought it excellent, I even bought the very short hardback about the giants. Gilden Holm (i think it was called)- a lot of money for a very short book. I did like the second series just not as much, I found the final tales rather disappointing. I do not mean to take anything away from Mr Donaldson here as he wrote some very good books that have stayed with me over the years.

I also wished to suggest a couple of others to those that may fancy them. A J Smiths, The Long War series. which is one of the more recent extensive fantasy series aimed at adults. It gets off to a slow start but within a few chapters you are hooked and cannot wait for more. He does owe a nod to Joe Abercrombie and George RR Martin for the style he writes in but his books are far more imaginative and restlessly wild than either of the above. I also wished to suggest Paul Hoffman's "The left Hand of God" but freely admit to that being a trilogy consisting of one great book, one good book and one seriously average book (in my humble opinion).
King and Strubb' s Black house (though not seriously long is still a large tome) a great read.
I also wished to suggest both the Grey Mouser series and the Lankhmar series by Fritz Leiber. I know that are both rather old now but not that much older than some others mentioned. My insomnia sometimes grows terrible and so I read more than usual. I am normally prepared but a few weeks ago, I slept so little that I ran out of books to read and so ordered a terrible detective novel from Amazon. I gave up quarter of the way through and not wishing to repeat my mistake went prowling the bookshelves. I came across one of those old Fritz Leiber novels and with nothing else to read (I had already reread six novels that week) I gave it a try. Very clever and witty with a strong sense of Irony and they had not faded with time but rather had gathered might. I hope no one minds these suggestions.

Just a note that Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar series is identical to his Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser series (Lankhmar is the place, Fafhrd and the Mouser are the main characters) -- so people won't go looking for two series when one is meant! :)

i also loved Donaldson's Mordant's need series

Margaret wrote: "Just a note that Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar series is identical to his Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser series (Lankhmar is the place, Fafhrd and the Mouser are the main characters) -- so people won't go lo..."
Margaret is correct, I have made it look like two series' in my comment (no idea how I did that) but it is the same series.