Poldark Saga - Winston Graham discussion
TV adaptation
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Season 3 - Summary Observations
Looking back on this last season DH seems to have painted a compelling picture of Hugh Armitage as an earnest young man hopeless in love with Demelza, himself torn between that love and desire, and his respect, gratitude and friendship for Ross. I believe a more careful consideration of his words makes the case that he is an evil person of, if you will, biblical proportions; the personification of the serpent from the Garden of Eden. Moreover, it is DH, herself that first suggest such a comparison with the exchange between Demelza and Hugh from S3E7. When Hugh approaches Demelza as other guests are bowling in the hall, he notices some flowers and says, “Blooms from the Garden of Eden. But where lurks Eve?) And, (she says) where the snake?” The answer to Demelza’s question is, right in front of you. From Genesis 3 we know it is the serpent (snake) that temps Eve with the first recorded lie. Roughly, here is the verse: “Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals God had made. The serpent said to Eve, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’? The Eve said not exactly, but “God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’” The serpent then lies to Eve when he says, “You will not certainly die. For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil,” and Eve eats the fruit of the forbidden tree.
From S3E9, here is the exchange between Hugh and Demelza, which likewise is full of lies: "(H) (Ross) is great man, my savior and friend. But you are, …. (D) His wife and mother of his children. (H) And I have no wish to threaten them. (D) I would not allow it. (H) Your head may not, but would your heart? It is to the heart that I now appeal. The heart which, dare I say it, has been neglected. Can you allow me this, shall we grant ourselves to each other so that I am go into the darkness knowing that I … I once tasted heaven?"
Hugh first praises Ross and then when Demelza reminds him that she is wife and mother of his children he says he has no wish to threaten that, but does he mean what he says. Of course not, because when she says that, he says, that is from your head, not your heart, and moves in for the kill. Earlier he played the, “I am going blind card,” to move her to hold his hand in public, now he plays it again to get what he wants, his “taste of heaven.”
Hugh’s afternoon of lies starts with the first words out of his month. He tells Demelza that he abandoned his squadron and came to her to show his love, then he admits that was not true, that he was dismissed from the Navy because he was going blind. The he tells her that he respects Ross as his savior and friend, and that he would not threaten tranquility of her family, and that was not true because he presses her for sexual favors by telling her that her defense of her family is from her head, not her heart. Then he plays the pity card again to get what he wants. She was as foolish as Eve, who believed the serpent and set aside what she knew was right. And, if you look at her in the last scene of season 3, when she goes back to Ross later that evening, she knows that what she did was not right.
To take the biblical analogy just a little further, I suspect that night Hugh had about as much remorse or concern for the consequences for what had happen that day, as the serpent had for Eve taking a bite of that apple. It fell to God to punch the serpent, I wonder who and how Hugh will be punish? We also know that there were dire consequences for Eve and Adam for what she did, and if what WG wrote in The Angry Tide is carried through in season 4, there will be dire consequences for Demelza and Ross.
One further point about seeing Hugh as the biblical serpent of the Garden of Eden, in the Hebrew tradition the serpent represents “sexual desire,” which Wikipedia defines as “a wish, need or drive to seek out sexual objects or to engage in sexual activities.” What could be more apropos of Hugh.
Bernie - your comments are interesting especially as we haven't until now looked at the conversation about the biblical analogy. I do not recall whether this conversation takes place in the books but I doubt it. I also doubt that Demelza would have been that familiar with the bible as religion was not part of the Carne family's life until some time after Demelza left.However, that aside, it is a significant conversation and adds greatly to the evidence of Hugh's character. From that point on we cannot see Hugh as anything but a selfish and evil character who, for the time being, seriously threatens Demelza's marriage with Ross.
Overall, the series does focus on the four women - the four swans - and their distress in their respective situations, even if it does stray, unnecessarily in my opinion, from the books.
Stella wrote: "Bernie - your comments are interesting especially as we haven't until now looked at the conversation about the biblical analogy. I do not recall whether this conversation takes place in the books b..."Bernie wrote: "Looking back on this last season DH seems to have painted a compelling picture of Hugh Armitage as an earnest young man hopeless in love with Demelza, himself torn between that love and desire, and..."
Bernie wrote: "Looking back on this last season DH seems to have painted a compelling picture of Hugh Armitage as an earnest young man hopeless in love with Demelza, himself torn between that love and desire, and..."
Bernie wrote: "Looking back on this last season DH seems to have painted a compelling picture of Hugh Armitage as an earnest young man hopeless in love with Demelza, himself torn between that love and desire, and..."
Spoiler Alert:
I like your post. The Biblical analogies are great. Here is the spoiler in the next book so don't read any further if you don't want to be spoiled.
In the book Hugh dies and Ross feels cheated, " how do you fight a ghost?" However a new more obvious scroundral appears in the character of Monk. He is young aristrocratic and handsome but a real jerk. He teams up with Ross's nemisis. Ross now transfer his anger to him with the consequences of what I call the London Duel. I won't say anymore , just you should read the book. Also from my reading the book Demelza doesn't think Hugh was much of a lover, all words and no performnce if you get what I mean. I am just glad I read the books, you get a fuller understanding of the characters. Maybe DH put too much 21st century feminism into D's character which upsets many people.
David wrote: "Stella wrote: "Bernie - your comments are interesting especially as we haven't until now looked at the conversation about the biblical analogy. I do not recall whether this conversation takes place..."David
I completely agree with you about DH putting too much 21st century feminism into the series and it grates. It doesn't belong and it doesn't fit the times and it is one of the main aspects which takes the series away from the books, taking up time which could be used for aspects that are in the books and get squeezed out. One example is Demleza's decision to give her brothers the barn for their church. In fact Ross did not resent her taking decisions and was glad when she took over responsibilities for his affairs while he was in London.
SPOILER ALERT!!!!
I didn't pick up that Demelza didn't think much of Hugh as a lover
so please can you direct me to that in the book please. I am currently reading TAT but haven't got very far into it.
Stella wrote: "Bernie - your comments are interesting especially as we haven't until now looked at the conversation about the biblical analogy. I do not recall whether this conversation takes place in the books b..."I agree Bernie... unfortunately DH made Ross the snake.... How could she add the 2 scenes of Ross telling her to get another man???? I feel any comments now must be prefaced with a DH or WG to identify which story arc is being referenced.... I praised how the adaptation mirrored the book in S1&2, but S3 is a total flop for me, especially the Hugh tryst....
WG didn't try and tear down Ross for an excuse, it was something that caught D unawars... She did mount a consistent defense against her betrayal of her vows, right up to when Hugh kissed her (but she wanted to go home and felt she couldn't stop him from kissing her) then her lust melted her resolve.... of course it's still adultery (but one that wasn't sought or received in a manner she wanted to repeat....) Simply a series of events she couldn't stop....
DH on the other hand, showed us nothing but a revenge pity poke..... She told Prudy she knew cheating would break Ross' heart, and marched straight to Hugh to do just that.... for me this does more damage to Demelza's character than WG did.... It was premeditated not a series of events.
I still blast D for committing the same violation of trust she punished Ross for in S2 of DH's version.
I have lost faith with DH giving us anything but a modern Women's lib version of WG's story...... Winston had a way of showing a woman's strength, without bashing men
Ken wrote: "Stella wrote: "Bernie - your comments are interesting especially as we haven't until now looked at the conversation about the biblical analogy. I do not recall whether this conversation takes place..."I agree. At best, and that is second best, it is a totally different story. The one thing DH has accomplished a lot of people are writing about it just because she changed things around. I goes with the old line that you don't care what people write about you as long as they spell your name correct. From the start of season three twe have been spelling her name correctly as we have bashed the way she has told the story.
Bernie wrote: "Ken wrote: "Stella wrote: "Bernie - your comments are interesting especially as we haven't until now looked at the conversation about the biblical analogy. I do not recall whether this conversation..."Bernie, what upsets me about this season, is how out of character both the leads are portrayed. DH starts ep7 with R&D in bed content in their love...... Then has to switch gears at light speed to get her to betray her vows. Having D all upset about R not going into politics (WTF) and the R pushing D away to find another man.(never happen) Ross is not the perfect husband and now Demelza is far from a perfect wife.
I hope S4 doesn't have a huge time jump, but I think it might. There needs to be more angst to send R to London (such as finding the poems) We both know this is the low point for the relationship. D needs her feet held to the fire, like she did to R in S2..... (D).... ask me nothing, Ross" just won't cut it.
What upset me most about the finale, was D jumping in bed with R, smelling like H..... not trying to be gross here, but that's exactly how I took the scene. I think DH knew if she didn't get em back in bed after the betrayal she would loose a chunk of audience. DH certainly did just the opposite with Ross' night out.
I don't know if you've watch the 75' series, but it mirrored the books much better..... of course DH has done a fantastic job of casting and music, if she would only use what she has to tell a better story.
Ken - why would season 4 have a huge time jump? We know that HA is around in series 4 so there is still a role for him. There is an eight-month gap from the end of The Four Swans to the start of the Angry Tide when Ross is in London but series 4 will be starting towards the end of The Four Swans. It's difficult to identify what is left of The Four Swans because DH has switched the order of so many events that it's difficult to keep up and to identify what is left before the series will take us into book 7.
No season 4 starts the end of TFS, which is the death of Hugh. It in that period that DH must fill in answers tot he question of why Demelza did what she did. I think one of the biggest difference that must be explained is why Demelza came back to Ross. In the books she never leaves , and in fact this is a big problem for Ross becasue he is never sure that we would have won her back. All she would say is that whatever she had with Hugh was over, and when Ross says, becasue he is dead, she just says it is over. In DH's version, and in her interviews she says Demelza made the choice to come back to Ross. This is a very important difference.
Bernie...... honestly the "coming back" makes no sense at all to me. Was Demelza actually considering leaving Ross and her two kids????Really??? She has only met the boy 4 times after the intro at the beach..........., plant, Tehidy, wedding, and roll in the sand. Besides, she just finished telling H she wouldn't let him destroy her family........ Is DH telling us in the back of her mind she loved H so much she was willing to chuck the family and 14yrs of love for a boy who thinks marriage is a prison?...... Non of this makes sense to me, it's just not logical. If Demelza had told me she didn't know if she was coming back, I'd told her not to let the door hit her on the way out. Frankly, it was totally out of character for Ross not to explode..... The cute little makeup bed scene was totally weird...
Stella wrote: "Ken - why would season 4 have a huge time jump? We know that HA is around in series 4 so there is still a role for him. There is an eight-month gap from the end of The Four Swans to the start of th..."Bernie - You have focused on an important difference between the books and the series which I hadn't really taken in. As you say, in the books Demelza never leaves Ross or thinks of doing so but in the series she does perhaps for a very short time. So Ross will be able to feel better than he did in the books because Demelza has returned to him before Hugh dies. He will not have to ponder the problem of "how to combat a ghost". DH has said that series 4 will include the last third of TFS although I don't think that much is left.
Ken - I see your point too. I think the scene with Hugh in the sand dunes is confused and confusing. Demelza begins by refusing to hold Hugh's hand and is persuaded by Hugh's emotional blackmail to let him hold her hand. He tells Demelza he will go blind and she gives in to his wishes. I saw nothing in that scene to suggest Demelza was leaving Ross. Then there is the scene when Demelza returns to Nampara and Ross. She says she too thought she might not return. This is way off the books and confusing as she wasn't happy with her decision to let Hugh have his way. I do wish we could hear DH's reasoning when she departs significantly from the books.
Ken wrote: "Bernie...... honestly the "coming back" makes no sense at all to me. Was Demelza actually considering leaving Ross and her two kids????Really??? She has only met the boy 4 times after the intro at ..."That is the problem with all of DH's excursions they were not well thought out and one illogical one leads her to make another. I have an earlier post that talks about u-turns. She is full of them.
I must say that DH never stops suprising me, and that is because of all these u-turns. So Stella, just becasue Demelza has come back to Ross don't think that she might not again show her longing for Hugh, getting Ross back to the fighting ghost thing. The problem with DH's story is not that she moved the tryst from the seal cove to the sand dunes, but that it was played out in front of Ross. In the book Ross really does not realize things have gone south on him until the final visit to Hugh when he a few weeks from death. By doing what DH did, with Ross knowing of her infidelity in thought if not deed so early she has a lot of story time to fill in, with no help from WG as how to fill it in.
Yes Stella, I'm very confused about the final scene.... Nothing made sense... Why didn't Ross continue to look in D's eyes as she entered, rather than look down..... and then explode.(sry, but that would have been keeping to character. The only thing I can come up with is Demelza was so embarrassed by her betrayal she couldn't face Ross..... In which case it meant "might not return that night" (which is exactly what Ross did).... What ever, it's a huge deviation from the books and one that needs to be explained by DH..... I also have a problem with Demelza just jumping in bed with no explanation. This was not a small thing she decided to do..... Not only did she want a "hall pass" for her day of love, but now wants Ross to just accept it with no discussion. The whole triangle thing was botched, WG did it beautifully, but no one was smart enough to read the blueprint.
Bernie wrote: "Ken wrote: "Bernie...... honestly the "coming back" makes no sense at all to me. Was Demelza actually considering leaving Ross and her two kids????Really??? She has only met the boy 4 times after t..."BINGO...... that is the very problem. This puts an entirely new light on when Ross meets Hugh on his death bed. In WG's version Ross didn't know the depth of the flirtation until he saw D at the death bed and read the poem that night. I have no problem with changing around the order of events or the characters that have the lines, but DH has messed with the fabric of the tryst making it a different story. Now she has to come up with emotions for the leads as we wait for H to die.
I had no problem changing the location of the deed, but I didn't feel Demelza's reluctance came through like the books. She truly fought right up to the kiss and her lust for H melted her resolve.....D was passively conquered by predator Hugh as WG wrote it...... Much more the aggressor in the DH version as she grabbed Hugh's hand and pulled him to the sand.
Guess they couldn't get seals, but the change of venue had other possible ramifications...... Seal Hole was very private, accessible by boat. The Endronia Sands were right out the back door.... I honestly thought Ross was going to catch em in the act.... Then I thought OMG George is going to catch em....... BANG, another head banger (no pun) one minute Demelza is worried about holding hands because the path is used and someone might see em, the next she's getting sweaty in the sand making the beast with two heads..... that makes a lot of sense.
Hannah, watch the scene again.... her betrayal is all over her face (great acting by Eleanor Tomlinson).... Look at Ross' face to he's torn up.... even if he doesn't know they had sex, Demelza has been unfaithful by letting Hugh in her heart, and he for sure knows that. He's totally in doubt about their relationship, and confirms it with "I did not think you'd return"....... She confirms his fear with " I did not think so either"Without clarification by Demelza (that she refuses to give) that can only mean she considered leaving him for Hugh. Why should he care if they had sex yet? It's her emotional involvement that he now knows.
Hannah wrote: "Bernie, Maybe I need to watch it again but I didn't get the impression that Ross knew about Demelza's infidelity. He knew that Hugh had been there and that they'd been out together but has no evide..."You are correct, but if my wife had told me that she wanted to be two people and love another even for a day, we had just fought over me kissing the women I have recently had sex with and had not told her about it when she asked, had gone off with a man that she
said loved her, and looked at me the way she looked at Ross, I certainly would have thought that she had been unfaithful. This parallels the book, where Ross was also never sure she had sex with Hugh, but always said there was infidelity in thought and suspected deep. Also, DH says so in her interview, which I posted on the summary tread in this folder.
Hannah, sorry I posted the interview as message 36 in the episode 9 tread.
Hanna remember she cares for Hugh but loves Ross. After Hugh dies I can't find a single passage that shows that she mourned for him. She says that she once cared deeply for him but he was gone and she says that the affair pulled at her heart strings and was the agony of divided loyalties. She really suffers from her estrangement from Ross caused by Hugh. She says what she misses after he is gone is the closeness she had with Ross. It is not until London and after that they start to achieve what they once had. The whole affair with Hugh brought her nothing but anguish. They both suffered.
I absolutely agree with you. In Paris he thinks that the only good thing to come of this was his understanding how his happiness is tied to this one women.
The TV should in one way be reassuring to him in that she makes a positive decision to come back to him. In the book, Hugh dies before he has a chance to win her back. Hopefully DH won't screw that up.
Where I see the crux of the problem for DH, is what she had D say when she returned.... (R) I thought you might not return.... (D) I thought so too.Ross can only take that as her love for him has change to the level she considered leaving him.... It could mean nothing else.
If she had responded, " Oh Ross, my love for you hasn't and never will, just ask me nothing now. With that response DH could have got back on track with the end of TFS and been set up for TAT.
Letting Ross know at this point that he almost lost her to Hugh, forces a different 3 or 4 weeks until H dies. Ross will have to question her about her feelings for Hugh (something that doesn't come till later) I don't see how R & D can reconcile at this point and then have it torn apart at the bed scene and H's death.
In the books Ross was away for "infidelity day" and D told him of the Seal Hole outing with H.... This in no way impacted his trust for Demelza
DH version has Ross experiencing it first hand, couple that with D agreeing she though she might not return, changes everything from here on.
Having D choose to return to Ross is not inspiring at all when she let's him know she considered not coming back.
But she did come to him. I agree however that these first three episodes will be.very interesting so how do you think things play out? We know it is going to work out ok in the end so how does it unfold? Tell me what your scenario is.
It was not the fact she chose to come back..... It was she entertained not coming back...... something DH has interjected....Sure we both know they will find their love will bridge any divide, that's a given when you read WG..... I don't think DH wanted to paint herself in this particular corner but I think she has...... Just like grasping at straws in the interview that D's infidelity was not based on revenge, because of how she treated the Capt in her room after Ross' night of shame. What was that? 9 mos ago? Then she shows us D going straight to H after she finds out about the meeting at Sawle church, and claims it's not revenge....... BIG LEAP there.
Bernie, your obviously asking me what I think DH will do, and not my fanfic version. I'm happy to give it a shot.
DH has to answer the question of how D really feels about Hugh, and now it has to be said to Ross. Ross may have been happy to just trust and hold her that night, but morning will bring the need to know where he stands. If DH were smart, she would have Demelza say she questioned coming back because she was out with another man and was ashamed of what he might think. (Lie, I know, but somehow DH has to get this back to the unknown, and I didn't think I was coming back, just doesn't cut it.) Ross obviously won't be satisfied with that response and probe for how she truly feels.... D's best response is the truth, she doesn't know exactly how she feels. D has to get into the "it caught me unawares" stuff, even though it's premature. She need to reassure Ross her feeling were not something she was seeking.
The above is hard to do when you just told your husband you thought you might not return, but still possible if she just sticks to the truth. She may not know totally how she feel about H but she knows totally how she feels about Ross.
DH is now left crafting a temp patch to assure Ross he still has D;s love...... Temporary, because in the first 3 eps DH need to return to WG's story and put the final daggers of the death bed and D's response to his death in place, so she can get back on track with TAT.
DH has to invent the dialogue in the first episode of S4 to back Ross off of what he fears is happening. I say this because Ross may have given her a pass about talking that night, but he has to know her feelings, because he loves her.
Ross experiencing the walk of shame, presents DH with problems she has to control now..... and the talk of how you feel about him can't be put off for weeks. Why would Ross ever let her be alone with H again? Some how he has to be assured of her love for him, before he sees her response to the death bed and his death.
It's possible DH could actually enhance the story..... naaa. WTF am I thinking. haha
What's really miss here are Demelza's thoughts as to why the tryst happened and the fact she never "loved" Hugh. So well explained with WF.... so missing with DH
OK, my question for you..... Why the heck doesn't Caroline (her best friend) become more involved with warning her off destroying her marriage? She has to know Hugh's playboy background.... I always felt Caroline was a smart cookie................... could it be she was setting herself up to be Mrs Ross II? Just in case Enys didn't work out. There is no doubt Caroline knows what's a foot with H... she evn offers to cover with Drake's recovery while D gets sandy. I can see why Dr. Enys didn't say much, but he did tell H he never had his "hearts desire".... You know I'm thinking about future convos in TAT..... I'm just wondering the depth of her desire to bed Ross.... Caroline of all people was giving the shady eye to what was going on between D & H...... what do ya say, girl?
My scenario is a little different. I think that Demelza is a little more certain of how she feels. She knows she is taken with Hugh, but she also knows that Ross is her true love. I think she thought that she could have Hugh for just a day without guilt, but she now knows that her day came with guilt and she has to cut it off. I think she makes that clear to both Ross and Hugh. She will write to Hugh and tell him she cannot see him again. I think that she will tell Ross that she was taken with Hugh, but there is room in her heart for only one and she has made her choice. Unfortunately, Hugh will be up to his old tricks and to try to change her mind by sending her at least one last poem, and as with the others she cannot throw it way and saves it. Then when Hugh is on his death bed he sends word that we wants to see both of them for the last time. They go and he says he is sorry to them both. At some point, however, Ross and Demelza are separated and Ross finds the poem. It is not important why they are separated, but Ross's reaction is from finding the poem and not seeing her at Hugh death bed. The day Hugh dies, Ross comes home and sees Demelza very upset, as naturally she would be, and he confronts her about the poem, accusing her of having sex with Hugh. She breaks down and says that she did not intend it, but it came over her unwanted and uninvited. (A DIRECT PARALLEL TO ROSS LOOSING CONTROL WHRN HE TOOK ELIZABETH). This new revelation brings into question everything she has said and sets up the same questions by Ross of Demelza, as Demelza has of Ross. We are then at the doorstep of TAT, and things can progress. It is the poem and not her reaction to Hugh on the death bed that sets him off. The only problem is how does this "gun powder" poem enters the picture, and I have accounted for that in the above.
I never thought Demelza ever had questions about how she felt about Ross... her questions were about how she felt about HughI'm on board with most of your assumptions (because the mirror the books so well) Still we have this wildcard of Ross prematurely knowing the extent of their attraction..... If D doesn't shoot his feelings down, Ross' mind will spin out of control... How could D not know the depth of his depression..... a depression that was artificially contrived by DH..... with her," didn't know if I'd return"
Franky, Hugh pursuing this further in the DH version, will make me want to gut him.... he already risk her marriage and got what he wanted...... in fact, ALL he wanted..... we know in the books H wanted some time alone after the tryst, in fact he was so embarrassed he didn't want to stay for dinner.. Who he left holding the bag was Demelza
Look, the boning took place, we are left sorting out motivations and results.... I've have no problem getting there with the WG version, it was very well explained and logical... my problem comes with the DH version....
Sry but the "just a day" BS bugged me from the beginning DH or WG.... How can someone you love ask for a day off?......poop
Hannah - You highlight the fact that we don't know the reason for Demelza thinking she might not have come back. As has been said before, it is more than unlikely that Demelza wouldn't want to return to Ross (apologies for the double negatives) as she has said her heart has been given to Ross and she has children with him. So her uncertainty about her return to Nampara is probably about something else - regret about her behaviour and/or hurt about Ross kissing Elizabeth or the realisation that there are consequences of her behaviour with Hugh because it isn't possible to be a different person for a day without consequences. Demelza doesn't seem able to see ahead the cause and effect aspect of her behaviour.
Stella "Demelza doesn't seem able to see ahead the cause and effect aspect of her behavior."But didn't Demelza just tell Purdy she knew it would break Ross' heart if she strayed? The rest I totally agree.. Demelza is beginning to understand revenge may not taste so sweet.
Hannah. I'm trying to get to your point of view. It's hard to equate Ross' kiss with boning Hugh. Demelza is making assumptions and using them as an excuse to have her day. (something she didn't do in WG) Ross is for sure responsible in part.... not telling her about the church... letting Hugh come sniffing around without boxing his ears. All that aside, what I want to know is how Ross will act in Hugh's company now?
Another line in this episode that bothered me was the "you keep your secrets, and I'll keep mine"..... That's not something Demelza would say.... Again it's DH's attempt to give D cover for her actions, and as we know the consequences are coming.
For now I'm sticking with the "I thought I might not return" as referring to short term, not eloping with H. Ross didn't return till morning after his tryst with E. No matter how mad D is with Ross or herself, I don't think she would leave her life or children.
Bottom line Hannah, I don't see this night melting away without serious questions being addressed.... and that has to put DH at odds with WG again, because it's so different from what he wrote. Everything DH has shown us about Demelza's infidelity is based on getting even..... so different from WG's story where she was caught off guard by the charming wolf in sheep's clothing.
Sry if I ramble on at times... haha.... I type and think, by the way I'm Drake.... not his unrequited love, but a blacksmith...
A further thought on my scenario. It appears from the interviews that Hugh will be around for three episodes so DH will need to fill the time and have some drama before he dies. I think that three things will happen: (1) Hugh will try to see Demelza again and have another run at it. When they meet she will hold fast and send him on his way. It would be important for her to tell Ross that he has been to see her and what she did. This will set Ross off to see him, and (2) a confrontation between Ross and Hugh will result where Ross makes it plain that if he continues Ross will kill him. (3) A meeting with the one or both of the Lords who offers to put him forward to be elected an MP.
Ken, I really think that Demelza saying that she also consider that she might not return and then said "yet, here I am.," is a strong reaffirmation of her love for Ross because it was a very strong indication that she was making a positive choice after thinking about the alternatives. Also, I take a lot from the look on her face as she is clearly very troubled about what she did. DH also supports this when she said in the interview that, "Demelza’s return to Nampara – and her marital bed – at the end of the series finale is hugely significant. In the end she has come back. It’s very clear she has made a choice. If that wasn’t the choice she made there would be no coming back. ... I think if Hugh had turned up on a different day in different circumstances, possibly it would never have happened. It’s the perfect confluence of circumstances. ... Events made this the one and only time it could ever have happened. She has no intention of it happening again." Her challenge is to get this over to Ross, and the way she came back is a good start for that. Frankly, up to this last 2.24 min. of season 3 I did not understand how DH was going to get this back on track, but with this scene and so few words, but very revealing pictures, she did provide a way ahead, and my scenario is my best guess as to how things could payout.
See, that's where we're are stuck.... DH has introduced D actually thought to leave R...... never happened in the book... for her this was a "DAY" of revenge and gratification(but was it anything she didn't get from Ross?)... she never considered or wanted it to be her end game.....nothing but a pity poke, but something Ross could not understand.OMG, everyone posting on this board should be watching " Outlander"
To some extent you must let the book go and follow DH. My scenario has nothing to do with the book because as we have said Ross did not feel things were out of hand until Hugh was on his death bed. It is only with DH's version that we have to account for the time, as I have tried to do.
Hannah wrote: "Ken, I still disagree that Ross knows they extent of Demelza's emotional involvement because she said she may not come back. Remember, the last conversation they had had was her confronting Ross ab..."I have no idea where DH's head is ..... this is all a diversion from the books.... I do know how I would feel if I were Ross. :)) Having your woman returning late night from a tryst with a guy I didn't trust and in an emotional pitfall.... I'd be pissed... haha I don't see Ross just brushing this all under the rug.... too much has happened he knows about.... totally different from the books
Look, all I'm saying is this is a total departure from WG.... her "I though I might not return" needs to be explained
sry for the double post... hope I fixed it.... Hannah, are you an "Outlander" fan... ??? If not you should be. haha
I'm now going the other way,,,, Demelaz was so overcome her admiration for Hugh, she felt her self unable to resist his affections.... she simply overcame her natural reaction to be loyal to Ross...... She was horny... haha.... For her it was only about the moment.... but she gave in for that moment and nothing more....... her problem is that a man like Ross cannot accept that level of infidelity, even if he has done the same himself.......Ross sees her infidelity as core to the relationship, not something passing, that didn't have further ramification. She f*cked him once... how could she not do it again? Ross is left wondering about the depth of Demelza's betrayal, and although we blame Ross, the fault for this is just as much Demelzas
Ken wrote: "sry for the double post... hope I fixed it.... Hannah, are you an "Outlander" fan... ??? If not you should be. haha"Now, on step more...... Ross acted on an affection of 14 yrs...(wrong, of course).... Demelza acted on a relationship of weeks...(yes, the book was longer, but we have the video file).... She decided to betray her husband on a whim, a whim she didn't believe in,,,,, there's the difference.
Ken wrote: "sry for the double post... hope I fixed it.... Hannah, are you an "Outlander" fan... ??? If not you should be. haha"Ken - I do not blame Ross for Demelza's infidelity. On another forum it was suggested that Ross needed Demelza to remain faithful or, in the end to choose him because Elizabeth had chosen Francis. I think this is right that Ross needed to know that he was Demelza's choice and not forced on her by a confrontation or worse. In any case that would have been difficult with a man who was seriously ill and then was dying.
Hannah - I am interested to know why you think that DH was somehow forced away from the books in series 3 but will now be able to return to them in series 4. I cannot see why DH had to do this at all so why should we expect her to return to the books in series 4? I do not see how she has 'tried to lay the groundwork to come back to the books'. She has made changes to the Demelza/Hugh relationship so how could she get back to the books even if she wanted to?
For my two cents, I agree with Hannah. I think that DH is moving us back to the books, and my scenario for season 4, which is at message 30 in this folder takes us there. Stella, I would have agreed with you until the last 2.24 min of season 3. With Demelza's return to Ross, even though there are week, if not months before Hugh's death bed scene, if she stays with Ross and does not go back to Hugh, DH can get us to the estrangement at the end of TFS and then on to TAT. To do that DH will have to use the poem he finds at the way to rekindle Ross's anger and jealously. When he comes home after Hugh is dead he will have to confront her with the poem demanding to know what it means. She then can say "I tell you, it came on me unawares. It was the last thing I ever sought." (TFS, p.580) AND, we are back to the book. I don't know if you follow:
https://www.facebook.com/Works-in-Pro...
But if you do, she has several stories that fit right into my scenario, particlarly elements of her Careless Whisper and Dead Poet's Society.
For me the way TAT is written, it's almost impossible to rearrange the series of events. I'm interested in the first 3 eps of S4, because Ross has more knowledge that he did with WG.... I don't see how DH is going to sweep that knowledge under the rug and make Ross not care and question.Ross is obviously worried about another rejection by a woman he loves.... how could he not be? At the same time he has to know how she feels about Hugh, so questions will come.
Bernie - I have read 'Careless Whisper' but could not find 'Dead Poet's Society'. I do follow some of this author's work. I hope you are right about DH returning more to the books but I am doubtful as she appears to have embarked on her own version since series 2. My view is that she didn't need to change the order of events or the story lines in any of the series. She didn't change much in series 1 (when she did it was mostly obvious why did) so why make so many changes in the last two series. In my view, it did not, overall, improve the production.
Ken - You say that it's almost impossible to rearrange the series of events in the Angry Tide. I would have said that about TBM and TFS but she did just that. I have still to work out why it was necessary for Dwight and Caroline to marry ahead of the books. Perhaps you can suggest reasons?
Hannah - I see what you mean especially with all the new characters and I had not taken that into consideration. I wonder if she asked for 10 episodes for series 3 and didn't get them. I must look at the 1970s version and see how they managed this difficulty there.
Hannah, you have nailed down the reason for the character assassination of R and D..... time. DH compressed the seduction of Demelza in the last three eps. She had to go from R&D cuddling and content at the beginning of episode 7..... to sandy sex with H.She had to do it in a way that did as little damage to D's character as possible, so the audience didn't turn on her, something ET was worried about too...
DH conjured up 2 out of character lines from R (pushing D away to find another).... she then had D be upset with R because he didn't go into politics, and wouldn't confront George about Drake (both she would never do).... then Prudy delivers the church news to ease D's guilt and in her confrontation with Ross at the beach, D gives her most out of character line of .... "secrets, secrets Ross, you keep your and I'll keep mine" leaving before Ross could explain. I think this was a big reason for R's "I thought you might not return" not till after D broke down in bed did he consider the afternoon was more than a walk. I say this because of Ross' answer to George on the beach, when ask about his belief...." belief is a beautiful thing. (at this point he still trusts in D's love for him.)
DH missed a chance to pile on D's guilt after the ask me nothing, Ross, by not having R give his what happened at the church dream speech. That would have let D know she was only acting on assumptions.
Bernie, you ask about what was coming the first three eps of S4. We all know R would never ask D outright if she had sex with H. Still he has to be curious just how much he lost her. In my experience it's much easier for a woman to love two guys at the same time than the reverse. We simply aren't wired that way, males don't share mates they care about.
When the series returns I expect DH to have them carry on with daily events, with only questioning looks.... I certainly don't expect a confession from D or R to ask for one. I do expect R to ask how she feels about H, which D will dodge.... she won't give the "caught me unawares" speech until he returns from London the first time.
Demelza will not contact H and when ask to visit his sick bed, she will appear reluctant and differ to R.... She will get another poem from H and hide it again..... D will be terrified of R discovering her infidelity, and loosing everything she's worked for and loves.
After watching the finale again, I don't think DH is far at all from the book track, and getting us to TAT...... The sick bed scene, poem, and H's death, will be all DH needs to merge back to WG.
I really don't like how DH is getting there by changing the core characters. What I dislike most is R being indifferent to D and pushing her away...... And D becoming the aggressor in the tryst with H (knowing what might happen and actually pulling him to the sand) DH has changed all the motivation for the tryst.
I basically agree with you accept on one two points. First, when he goes home and Prudy says Demelza has gone out and she does not know when she will return, she also says that she "had a visitor." Ross asks, "coming back," and Prudy says, "Didn't say." Look at his face, he knows that the visitor was Hugh. Moreover, when Demelza returns that night she is full of guilt, which makes it clear that she has been with Hugh. The "ask me nothing" also rings that things have happened. Ross may not ask, but he knows that this is playing out the "I wish I was two people" scenario. She is coming back to the "one who truly owns my heart" after her one day loving another. What she did not count on was the one day could not be without feeling guilt for betraying the one she truly loves. If I am correct, then something more will be needed to get to TAT theme of estrangement. My bet is the poem, and I think DH will have him confront Demelza about it.
Bernie wrote: "I basically agree with you accept on one two points. First, when he goes home and Prudy says Demelza has gone out and she does not know when she will return, she also says that she "had a visitor."..."We are not far apart at all.... I know Ross knows the visitor was Hugh.... But I think at the time Prudy was giving him the info, he still trusted Demelza to do the right thing. Why was Prudy so remorseful when taking to Ross? Could it be she felt guilt in pushing D towards H.... Prudy didn't have the best relationship to draw on, but she could see the possible outcome of her involvement.
His response to George "that belief is a beautiful thing" showed me he still believes in their love and he believes hasn't lost her to Hugh..... That of course will come into question when he sees her response to Hugh dying. That will shatter his trust in her loyalties to him, and set up the estrangement. The hinge pin we both agree on is the poem.... It will test his faith in Demelza's love for him, but he knows how much he still loves her..... There's the crux.. How can he win her back from a ghost.... How can he believe he was chosen, with no alternative.... The only thing that puts him at peace is killing Monk with Hugh's face, and finally puts an end to his misery..... Demelza already buried her feelings with Hugh (again, how much of her surrender was due to putting an end to her "heartstrings pulling and divided loyalty" Demelza after the first shock of Hugh's death, seems very at ease to bury her feelings of Hugh and return to the man who held her heart.
So tell me, I'm I a male sadist because I'm looking forward to Demelza squirming like a worm over her guilt..... haha
I feel Ross kinda gave permission with the "one day of loving another" because of his "do you think another would be content with that?".... (D) I don't know... (R) would you....(D) I think so, for I know who it is that truly hones my heart....'
On the surface he has no problem with what D is asking.... He's willing to grant her the day, because he doesn't see it as a threat to his marriage or her love for him................ that gets shattered with the sick bed and her response to Hugh, letting him know how deeply Hugh's hooks have come between them.... the news of Hugh's death and D;s response is the icing.
I agree, your right, he will confront D with his knowledge of the poem.... that will be Ross' exit to Parliament, and D knowing her infidelity may have cost her the marriage.
What bothered Ross most was not the sex of one day, but the feeling he'd been replaced in her heart.... he loved her so much he was willing for her to explore her feelings for Hugh....... That's a BIG man, and one that was left questioning after he saw her response to Hugh's death. Estrangement complete.... :))
Hannah wrote: "Ken, I still disagree that Ross knows they extent of Demelza's emotional involvement because she said she may not come back. Remember, the last conversation they had had was her confronting Ross ab..."In fact Hannah, I think you're partly right.... Ross has no idea of the depth of her emotional connection..... and he won't until he reads the poem and see's her after H dies. ............................. It takes Ross a long time to realize Demelza had always chosen him... He was always scared of another rejection like Liz gave him...... I feel for the guy.... haha, because I'm a guy
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