The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

Our various threads are coming to conclusions as we reach the penultimate week of our first Palliser read.

First of all, there is a wonderful surprise for the Pallisers-Glencora is finally pregnant. Presumably, this is one of those situations where, in doing what he felt he ought to do to salvage his marriage, Plantagenet put the measures in place to produce an infant-increased time together, increased intimacy, decreased stress...all things which in many cases can result in a longed-for pregnancy.

Plantagenet then becomes a complete mother hen around his expectant wife, and Glencora does all she can to drive him crazy with her "recklessness". Trollope's comic side is beautiful played in these scenes.

Then there is George Vavasor-all our worst suspicions and fears are realized-the only question remains, will he leave Alice alone for good?

Finally, John Grey returns to the scene. Like Plantagenet, he has decided to repair his broken relationship with time and attention-do we think he will succeed?

Please share your views on this section.

I really enjoyed the scenes with the expectant father Plantagenet. It shows a whole new side of the uptight fellow. The voyage has been good for the couple, as they are finally getting to spend time together.

The scene with George, the pistol and the unknown lady was a jolt - I thought I was back reading the "sensational" Lady Audley's Secret, or maybe one of Dickens' stories with a fallen woman. I suppose it is intended to show the depths of George's depravity. At the beginning of the book, Trollope makes George seem attractive not only to Alice but to the reader, except for the scar. Or maybe that was just my take.

Just as Planty gave up his active life for his wife, John Grey gave up his peaceful life at home to travel to see Alice. It did seem like Alice was protesting too much about her guilt.

I couldn't help wondering what would happen if Glencora's child was a girl!

Alice is reminding me very much of Lily Dale at this point-not that she still loves George, but that she feels she has to punish herself for the rest of her life for "choosing wrong" and is going to embrace her mortification as all that she deserves.

The scene in which the pistol appears was certainly riveting. I was impressed with John Grey’s ability to think rationally and to stay focused throughout. I’m not surprised that Palliser respects and likes him. I wonder if this new friendship might lead to a political career for the country gardener.

The novel’s title gets in the way when I try to imagine the ending.

I agree with you Frances, I couldn't help thinking of Lily Dale at this point with Alice (and I felt bad for Lily, wishing she had changed her mind).

Frances wrote: "Alice is reminding me very much of Lily Dale at this point-not that she still loves George, but that she feels she has to punish herself for the rest of her life for "choosing wrong" and is going t..."
I agree with you to the extent that Lily's punishment is taking herself completely out of the marriage market but not the refusal to marry Eames. Alice loves John Grey while Lily did not love John Eames. Lily properly and rationally rejects Eames while Alice's rejection attempt was irrational.
Lily should have joined an Anglican nunnery.

Brian wrote: "Frances wrote: "Alice is reminding me very much of Lily Dale at this point-not that she still loves George, but that she feels she has to punish herself for the rest of her life for "choosing wrong..."

While I don't think Lily should have married John Eames if she didn't love him, I always suspected that she closed off her heart to any further possibility of love in reaction to having loved once and lost, and it felt like she was doing it out of some sort of self-inflicted penance. Even when she realized she no longer loved (I forget his name), she swore she would never fall in love again, and I felt sad for and annoyed with her all at the same time.

Frances, your suspicions are accurate on Lily's penance. I was only clarifying that any Lily and Alice similarity, which does exist, does not extend to whether they should marry their "Johns."
Lily's "Apollo" was Adolphus Crosbie.

And once again Alice changes her mind. Does Alice illustrate the internal struggle of the Victorian woman who knows she wants something more than women have been allowed in the past, but is unsure how much change she really wants? Does this account for her muddled thinking regarding John Grey? Now she feels she cannot marry John because she is unworthy of him and happiness because of her previous behavior- evil behavior. No thought in this section of his disregard for her opinions or treatment of her more like a beloved but unthinking dog than another human being. At the end of this section Alice reverts to the traditional model of Victorian woman as she submits to John Grey- he is omnipotent over her and wins everything always she says.

I am not seeing all happiness and light in Palliser and Glencora’s relationship at the beginning of this section. He desperately misses Parliament and in his manner toward Glencora he makes it clear she is the cause of his miserable condition. He and John Grey are becoming good friends and one wonders if John Grey hadn’t joined their party if Palliser would have been even more miserable. A great change comes with Glencora’s pregnancy. Palliser is overjoyed and perhaps this will bring he and Glencora together. Glencora, unlike Alice, so far retains her independent streak. Although she is submitting to Palliser’s overprotectiveness now, she will be in charge after the baby is born.

Glencora is often irrationally contrary but she does, as you say, retain an independent streak. Trollope does state that Alice now accepts John Grey, as you described in an earlier discussion, as a man who will be master of their lives rather than collaborative.
Trollope doesn't portray all happy marriages as a husband as master situation. One could hope for an Alice/Grey marriage closer to the Thorne/Dunstable one. As you say, some Victorian women could operate is a master/wife situation, but Alice doesn't seem cut out for it.

Whenever I think about Alice, I remember her lonely childhood, followed by her life with the almost absent father. Has she ever had anyone to give her unselfish love and encouragement? I am sure this is one of the caused of her low opinion of herself.

For some reason, Trollope picked up a technique of repeating dialogue at the end of the paragraph, and it's getting on my nerves.

I'm glad Alice accepted Grey, but she still doesn't seem happy, and he still seems overly paternalistic for her tastes. And we're not finished with the book and she still doesn't know about his interference in her money matters (unless I missed something), so I'm not sure if we can count on a happy ending.

I was also thinking about Lily Dale - not in her refusal to marry Eames, which I liked her for, but her stubbornness in clinging to her mistake as a reason not to move on.

Lori-I felt that Alice is deeply ashamed of her "jilting" two men on three separate occasions which, for the time, would indeed have been shocking, and that she can't forgive herself for her behaviour and move on to accepting that there might still be happiness for her in the future. I think that she is a young woman who, as Rosemarie reminds us, had a lonely childhood and young adulthood with very little guidance, and she is just now coming to full maturity. She says that she loves John Grey but was dreading the life of retirement to his home in the country-perhaps this is one of the things that is going to change for them as John becomes acquainted with and drawn into her circle of friends? Will he also change to become what she wants?

Alice does seem overwrought with self-hatred in this section for her "evil behavior". Coupled with her absolute submission to John and shrinking from his touch as if she cannot bear his honorable self to be contaminated by her tainted one. Does it strike anyone else that this scene has tones of the sensational, akin to the scenes of the demonically violent George?
I also liked Lily for recognizing that she wasn't in love with Johnny so she shouldn't marry him. Yet I wondered if her refusal to find anyone else had to do with her belief that she was damaged goods because she had been intimate with Adolphus? They did disappear into the woods, garden or wherever for long stretches of unaccounted for time.

I really enjoyed how Trollope writes of Glencora telling her husband her news-it is so Victorian in how little it actually says, but it conveys beautifully their new level of intimacy.

Lady Glencora had whispered into her husband's ear that she thought it probable-; she wasn't sure;-she didn't know. And then she burst out into tears on his bosom as he sat by her on her bedside.

The following couple of pages, as the news is spread, the ponies are abolished, Alice and John are taken into their confidence and Plantagenet goes into full mother hen mode and tries to treat Glencora as a fragile invalid are wonderfully comic, but at heart it is a wonderful view of their new relationship and a sure sign that their "arranged marriage" is likely going to blossom into a successful one.

Brian wrote: "Frances wrote: "Alice is reminding me very much of Lily Dale at this point-not that she still loves George, but that she feels she has to punish herself for the rest of her life for "choosing wrong..."
... but not the refusal to marry Eames. Alice loves John Grey while Lilly did not love John Eames...

And how was she to learn to love him - she saw him once per year for a few hours, during which time mostly he sat silent or was upset, and then badgered her to marry him.
Here is how John Grey was successful where Johnny Eames was not:

“Mr. Grey, though he was not unfrequently alone with Alice, did not plead his suit in direct words; but continued to live with her on terms of close and easy friendship.”

If they don't already love you then words will not convince them.

Agreed, Bonnie, I think that John Grey took, for the most part, the perfect route to re-winning Alice's love.

Also, Bonnie, glad to see you getting through the novel so quickly and I hope this means that you will be joining us for Phineas Finn soon!

Thanks Frances. I have never read any Balzac and was looking forward to trying it, but I spent the month tearing through Trollope Books to catch up. Starting on Phineas Finn now.

This is arguably my favorite Trollope novel. I agree with the observations, above, regarding emotional similarities between Alice V. and Lily Dale from TSHaA. It would seem that Trollope has a thing for "steadfastness" in his tales.