Victorians! discussion

Please discuss chapters 1 - 10. Please avoid spoilers from later in the novel.

We are off and launched into another world. Hardy gave us an almost unrelenting tragedy, Trollope gave us a fine microscope into the manners and politics of mid-Victorian England and now we have Dickens. We have larger-than-life characters, humour, suspense and irony, and sometimes all of these in one chapter, even almost in every paragraph. Mrs. Jo is a treat to read and Pip seems destined for a long, rocky road to maturity. Add in a love angle, a criminal or two and our adventure is ready to go.

Trollope, Hardy and Dickens are each very unique and distinguishable. Considering the vast list of other writers during this period and surely the Victorian Age was/is the halcyon time of the British novel.

Peter wrote: "Trollope, Hardy and Dickens are each very unique and distinguishable. Considering the vast list of other writers during this period and surely the Victorian Age was/is the halcyon time of the British novel. "

Which is why this Victorians group!

What a thrilling start! Two convicts in one night! And Christmas Eve no less. To have a bounty for Pip to share with his convict, it would need to be Christmas time.

So many different feelings in the first four chapters alone!

I'm appalled by the terrible way that Pip is treated by his sister (although I'm sure it was commonplace during the time).
I'm heart warmed by the way this mistreatment of both Pip and Joe brings them together as comrades.
I'm on tenterhooks as the discovery of the theft of food is about to be discovered. Knowing the temperament and violence of Mrs Joe, how scared must Pip have been of the convicts to steal the food.

Brilliant writing.

I don't want to reveal any plot points that will become significant in upcoming chapters, but this being my second reading of the novel, I've found several subtle examples of foreshadowing. Anyone else?

Jodie

Yes. There are many examples of foreshadowing sprinkled in this first section. Naturally, those of us who have read GE before can't reveal any, but it is a treat to watch how Dickens initially establishes the novel.

For me, at least, multiple readings of great books never get mundane; rather the novel just gets better.

It has been a long, long time since I read this book. My introduction to Dickens was around the age of 9/10 years and GE was read soon after. I remember from then I was very taken with all the 'new' words and used them at every opportunity - no doubt many at the wrong times!

I have just read the first 5 chapters in this section and, besides what others have commented on, it really struck me how Dickens has Pip focusing on his shortcomings and failures, emphasising his dishonesty and guilt. Yet Pip, by his actions, seems to be a very compassionate, kindly person.

This is among the three Dickens novels I’ve read previously, and I’m currently on Bleak House, and in almost all of them I keep seeing how they influenced J.K. Rowling. It might be just me, but orphans, foster families, poor conditions and then sudden “great expectations” keep reminding me of nobody else than Harry Potter. She must have loved Dickens.

His prose is peculiar. It reads like it’s supposed to be read aloud (and isn’t that indeed what Dickens did in front of big audiences). There are lots of funny, repetitive phrases within long sentences. I’m also reading Middlemarch at the same time, and the text is totally different compared to Dickens. If Eliot ponders over universal philosophies, Dickens relishes in the sound of language and keeps the plot moving all the time.

Ella's Gran wrote: "I have just read the first 5 chapters in this section and, besides what others have commented on, it really struck me how Dickens has Pip focusing on his shortcomings and failures, emphasising his dishonesty and guilt. Yet Pip, by his actions, seems to be a very compassionate, kindly person. "

I like your first sentence. Pip seems to be a bundle of defensiveness -- for good reasons. I do agree with Helen about the pleasure of seeing Joe and Pip drawn together by a common enemy. Yet at the same time, it's really not fair to consider her an enemy; she has as hard a life as they do, and she seems to me really to do the best she can given that this young brother was simply thrust on her -- with, presumably, no financial resources at all, so she has to use what money she and Joe have not only for their new married life, and there's never enough money at that time of life, but also to support this boy who was thrust into her care. So while Dickens isn't very understanding of or sympathetic for her, I think he shortchanges her unfairly.

As to Pip's being compassionate and kindly, I admit that I haven't seen the evidence of that yet. His providing the file and food isn't from compassion, but from terror. He doesn't seem all that appreciative of his sister for keeping him out of the gutter, or the poor house, and putting a roof over his head and food in his belly.

I've only read through chapter 7, which is one of the points where Dickens ended an installment (and therefore is a point where he expected his readers to pause, reflect on what they've read so far, and wait, in his case a month, for the next installment to come out).

One thing that struck me is how little education Pip has gotten so far. He knows his letters, sort of, but that's all. Dickens is usually quite accurate about his social facts, so it would seem that this is not uncommon for children of working class people in the 1860s.

Yet I reflect that the same is still true today in many parts of the world. Sadly, and perhaps amazingly, there are a huge number of children in the world who grow up basically just as illiterate as Pip.

Obviously at some point he learns to read and write, since he has written this book, but it certainly hasn't happened yet.

Tommi wrote: "This is among the three Dickens novels I’ve read previously, and I’m currently on Bleak House, and in almost all of them I keep seeing how they influenced J.K. Rowling. It might be just me, but orp..."

Reading Dickens and Eliot at the same time. Good for you. That's quite a hefty activity. I have never warmed to Eliot for some reason.

I never thought about the links in structure to Rawlings but your comments make sense. Dickens is certainly more orally enjoyable than most authors, and a good oral reader must have lots of fun assuming the quirky personas of the characters for an audience.

Everyman wrote: "I've only read through chapter 7, which is one of the points where Dickens ended an installment (and therefore is a point where he expected his readers to pause, reflect on what they've read so far..."

I find the novel refreshing in that Pip is very honest about his early self. While we don't know yet what will happen to him in the future, we do know that the novel is a written reflection of his life. To me, Pip's honesty about himself keeps me from disliking his youthful stumbles and hurtful activities and actions too much.

Everyman wrote: "I've only read through chapter 7, which is one of the points where Dickens ended an installment (and therefore is a point where he expected his readers to pause, reflect on what they've read so far..."

I agree Pip was horrified by the convict, and terrified of having his heart and liver ripped out, just as he was of the Tickler, but this is how I read it. He didn't run to Joe in his fear and tell him so Joe would go to the Police which would lead to the re-capture of the convict thus leaving all safe for Pip. I thought his consideration of the promise he had made to the convict was what drove him to steal the food and file. He felt a sense of compassion for the man's suffering and again for his safety when he learned the Police were looking for him.

He did all that even thought he was equally fearful of his sister and the Tickler.

I agree that he has little appreciation of the sacrifice his sister has made taking him in. I will be interested to see whether he gains that appreciation and understanding as he grows older. Most children have a sense of expectation of their parents with little appreciation until they mature. :)

Everyman wrote: "Ella's Gran wrote: "I have just read the first 5 chapters in this section and, besides what others have commented on, it really struck me how Dickens has Pip focusing on his shortcomings and failur..."

Thanks Everyman for your insight. I did not quite look at Mrs. Joe like that. I read somewhere that Dickens' female characters are not as good as his male ones. They are supposed to be one-dimensional. It is true of Mrs. Joe.

Also, I am curious as to why she is just Mrs. Joe in the novel. What was she before she became Mrs. Joe.

Bharathi wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Ella's Gran wrote: "I have just read the first 5 chapters in this section and, besides what others have commented on, it really struck me how Dickens has Pip focusing on his shortc..."

It's interesting that she is named Mrs. Jo. The way the household works she is in charge, not Jo. I wonder to what extent Dickens was being ironic here?

Bharathi wrote: "Also, I am curious as to why she is just Mrs. Joe in the novel. What was she before she became Mrs. Joe. "

Well, if she was Pip's sister, presumably she was Miss Pirrip. Though I don't think we have a first name for her, at least not yet.

Naturally, being a woman, once she married she ceased to have any importance except as a wife. (Hey, don't get mad at ME; I didn't create the Victorian social environment.)

Many women were called not by their first names or maiden names, but more usually by as Mrs. X (and they called their husbands Mr. X). And the Mrs confirms her status as a married lady. So it does not surprise that she is called Mrs rather than by her first name.

Just thinking about the name Pip. It is such a short, insignificant name, that it really fits the boy we get to know in these chapters. Think how differently you would think of him if he were called Francis, or Charles, or Ferdinand.

And, of course, the shortness of Joe emphasizes that he, too, is basically insignificant.

On the insignificance of women - when researching family history I noticed in parish registers the woman became anonymous even before Victorian times. When recording baptisms the child's name was given followed by son/daughter of John Smith. Sometimes "and wife" was added, but that wasn't common practice until the early to mid 1800s. In death entries the woman was "the wife of" while the male was just John Smith - didn't belong to anyone!

Something I found interesting was the male of the house referring to his wife as "mother". This was used when referring to her for any reason, "I'll send mother for the goods", not just when speaking to the children as in "go and ask your mother". This was an accepted form of referral until quite recently. I recall my grandfather referring to grandmother in that way, yet my grandmother would call him grandfather (when talking to me), father (when talking to their children) and Bill when speaking to him. He called her mother even when directly addressing her.

I guess that might have stopped with my parent's generation, after WWII by which time women were more liberated?

Ella's Gran wrote: "On the insignificance of women - when researching family history I noticed in parish registers the woman became anonymous even before Victorian times. When recording baptisms the child's name was g..."

Nice observations.

Thanks for the info about the way women were addressed. I got used to Christian names int the novels of Trollope, Austen, Collins etc. that Mrs. Joe seemed strange. Also I found something else very curious. When the convict was caught, he said he stole the stuff from the blacksmith thereby saving Pip. He is a thoughtful person basically for a prisoner.

Class divisions, social status in society at that time would also make life more unbearable for someone like Mrs Jo. It would be one long struggle on a daily basis to keep the household functioning, providing food on the table etc.

There seemed a clear division of roles between the bread earner and the housewife. Mrs Jo was expected to look after everything and everyone whilst her husband just did his work.

People worked long hours in often unsafe and dangerous environments to earn an income. Thus perhaps had a sense of entitlement to being looked after when at home. Also the wife would be worse off if the husband died.

Mrs Jo has a difficult life, no enjoyment and can understand that she thinks Pip is another burden for her to bear. It is very difficult to comprehend what life was really like in that era and the hardships that people had to overcome.

I can hardly imagine what life in the 1960s would have been like for women, let alone the 1860s.

As a bit of an aside, Dickens knew the part of England where these early chapters are set very well. When he was four his family moved to Chatham, only a few miles from the locations of the early chapters, and he and his father used to walk in that area. He saw a house called Gad's Hill Place and dreampt of owning it; when he became a successful author he bought it for his summer home, and he wrote much of Great Expectations there. Given that he was a very enthusiastic walker, it's probable that he frequently walked over the very places that these early chapters are set. The unnamed town where Miss Havisham lived, is based on Rochester, less than two miles from Gad's Hill. The site of the forge on which Joe's was based is located about two miles in other direction, and according to the map in the Norton edition of GE, the other locations of these chapter are all located within easy walking distance of Gad's Hill. So this was familiar land to Dickens, and most, if not all, of the elements of the scenery (including the gibbet) are based on actual places Dickens almost certainly visited.

Since we are thinking about names and what calling a person denotes, I wonder what (if anything) Dickens was thinking in the creation of Philip Pirrip as a name. We learn in the first paragraph of chapter one that to be able to pronounce his name Philip Pirrip becomes Pip. Both Pip and Pirrip are palindromes.

Will this have any bearing in the novel/its themes?

Very interesting discussion on Mrs Joe and the woman's place in Victorian society. Thanks everyone :)

Mrs Jo is a terror, but there is a double meaning to pips saying she brought him up by hand. Yes, she hits him a lot, but it also means she had to hand feed him as a baby. His mother died and there was no baby formula then, so you would mush up bread and milk and spoon feed infants with it. It was this or a wet nurse. As you can imagine, feeding by hand is very laborious.

It would have been a great achievement for Mrs Joe to have had Pip thrive since 60+% of deaths in the first year of life occurred in these babies. Less than a quarter of infant deaths occurred in babies nursed by their mothers, with slightly more in babies wet nursed. That could account for it being referred to with great frequency.

Having said that I do feel that Dickens was certainly using the term ambiguously - by hand to mean raised without a mother; by hand to mean with a clip around the ear (heavy hand).

Everyman wrote: "As a bit of an aside, Dickens knew the part of England where these early chapters are set very well. When he was four his family moved to Chatham, only a few miles from the locations of the early..."

This was so interesting I couldn't resist looking on Google maps for this area and having a wee travel around. It's interesting to see not far from Gads Hill Place (now a school) there is Forge Lane, Peggoty Close, Dombey Lane, and of course the inevitable Charles Dickens Ave. Gads Hill School is on Crutches Lane. I figured they had all been named well after Dickens' time, but wouldn't it be grand to live around there with one of these as your address!

Thanks for adding another interest level as always Everyman. ☺

Everyman wrote: "As a bit of an aside, Dickens knew the part of England where these early chapters are set very well. When he was four his family moved to Chatham, only a few miles from the locations of the early..."

Dickens sense of place is very strong in GE. If we take a look at his creation of homes/residences we find how each reflects the owner and helps develop theme. Mrs. Jo is full of energy and her bringing Pip up by hand has been noted with interest in our posts. Her home is clean, full of light and warmth and the aroma of food seems to fill the air. While she may have some peculiar ways of preparing and feeding Jo and Pip, the house is bountiful. As the setting is Christmas, we read that her table has guests and this feast seems to be a yearly occasion. When the soldiers arrive at their door it doesn't take much coaxing from the sergeant to get feed as well.

In contrast, when Pip is at Satis house, while it may be grand in scale, it is short on hospitality. Dark, damp, dreary and unwelcoming, Pip encounters a woman who has not exhibited any movement in decades, who feeds him like a dog and appears to wish harm or humiliate to him in some way. As Satis house is opposite to the forge, Mrs. Jo is the opposite of Miss Havisham.

Pip appears to favour the world represented by Satis House. Ill winds are blowing.

At the end of Chapter IX Pip writes, in reflection of his first visit to Satis House: "That was a memorable day for me for it made great changes in me ... . Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would have never bound you, but for the formation of the first link on one memorable day."

Here Dickens signals that much change is to come, and in a masterful stroke creates suspense for what is to come next.

Ella's Gran wrote: "I do feel that Dickens was certainly using the term [raised by hand] ambiguously - by hand to mean raised without a mother; by hand to mean with a clip around the ear (heavy hand). "

Well said. He certainly, I believe, meant it in both meanings of the term.

Peter wrote: " [Mrs. Joe's] home is clean, full of light and warmth and the aroma of food seems to fill the air. While she may have some peculiar ways of preparing and feeding Jo and Pip, the house is bountiful....In contrast, when Pip is at Satis house, while it may be grand in scale, it is short on hospitality. Dark, damp, dreary and unwelcoming.."

An excellent point nicely made. Life at the forge may have been hard and they may have been poor as the world measures wealth, but in true wealth they had far more of it than the monetarily rich but socially paupered Mrs. Havisham.

Everyman wrote: "Peter wrote: " [Mrs. Joe's] home is clean, full of light and warmth and the aroma of food seems to fill the air. While she may have some peculiar ways of preparing and feeding Jo and Pip, the house..."

Yes, I agree, an excellent point I nearly missed. Now when I think about that I am surprised at Pip's preference to the Havisham way of life. I will be interested to see how he develops in the future with that day being so memorable. I can't help wondering if I will continue to like Pip as he grows up.

Ella's Gran wrote: "I can't help wondering if I will continue to like Pip as he grows up. "

be sure to keep us posted on your thinking if it changes.

Perhaps Pip's preference for the Havisham way of life is partly just the natural awe of the poor for the lifestyle of the wealthy. The assumption, often wrong but seldom questioned, that more money brings more happiness.

I think it is not only the preference for wealth, but also the wish not to seem inferior or be humiliated, both of which he is made to feel on his visits to Miss Havisham, primarily at the hands of Estella.

This is my second attempt at reading this book in many many years. Until very recently, it was the only book I couldn't bring myself to finish. The odd thing is that I now have no idea why. Maybe Dickens' style has just grown on me, but I'm loving GE. I've been surprised at how funny it is, and I'm surprised no one has mentioned this in this thread. It's really a smart funny though as opposed to say Pickwick, which is more slapstick.
I'm intrigued by Miss Havisham-- she's deliciously spooky in a most Victorian way. And that Estella! I want to smack her for humiliating Pip. I can't help hoping that the tables are turned.

I really liked Joe's explanation to Pip of why he doesn't stand up for himself against his wife. His story of watching his own mother suffer under the abuse of a drunk was touching. And that he preferred to err on the side of bearing the brunt of injustice to save his wife any suffering spoke volumes about the sense of compassion, patience, and empathy that makes up his gentle heart. (I'm impressed that Dickens recognized the suffering that many women endured in this era.) The fact that Joe's a blacksmith, doing strapping physical work, seems a great contrast to his gentle nature.
And I think this gentleness has helped Pip survive his sister's harsh treatment and has given Pip some gentleness of his own. He doesn't shout back or swipe at his sister. He endures. He also does't wish her drowned or throttled - at least he doesn't share those kind of thoughts either.
As to why Pip seems so disturbed by his one visit to the Havisham house, I think it all revolves on Estella. Pip has shown a rather easy disregard for most of the adults in his life who treat him as rather insignificant, Pip even disdains them in return. But this is the first time we see him interact with a person his own age - and, on top of it, a pretty girl. Suddenly, his shame in being different and common is brought out and he is deeply affected.
How old is Pip?

Everyman wrote: "Just thinking about the name Pip. It is such a short, insignificant name, that it really fits the boy we get to know in these chapters. Think how differently you would think of him if he were called Francis, or Charles, or Ferdinand."

Or even Philip. ;) I quite like his full name, Philip Pirrip. It just kind of rolls over the tongue.

Ella's Gran wrote: "Something I found interesting was the male of the house referring to his wife as "mother". This was used when referring to her for any reason, "I'll send mother for the goods", not just when speaking to the children as in "go and ask your mother". This was an accepted form of referral until quite recently. I recall my grandfather referring to grandmother in that way, yet my grandmother would call him grandfather (when talking to me), father (when talking to their children) and Bill when speaking to him. He called her mother even when directly addressing her."

And even John Lennon called Yoko "Mother"!

Peter wrote: "At the end of Chapter IX Pip writes, in reflection of his first visit to Satis House: "That was a memorable day for me for it made great changes in me ... . Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would have never bound you, but for the formation of the first link on one memorable day."

Here Dickens signals that much change is to come, and in a masterful stroke creates suspense for what is to come next."

This quote made me immediately think of A Christmas Carol, and the chains that Jacob Marley and the other spirits bear, made up of their deeds during their lifetimes. Dickens must have been taken with his own imagery to reuse it here, in one of his late novels.

Kristen wrote: "This is my second attempt at reading this book in many many years. Until very recently, it was the only book I couldn't bring myself to finish. The odd thing is that I now have no idea why. Maybe Dickens' style has just grown on me, but I'm loving GE. I've been surprised at how funny it is, and I'm surprised no one has mentioned this in this thread. It's really a smart funny though as opposed to say Pickwick, which is more slapstick."

I'm so glad that you're enjoying it this time around, Kristen! Yes, it is interesting to see how much Dickens' writing has evolved between Pickwick, his first novel, and this one, completed 24 years later, and one of his last novels.

Everyman wrote: "One thing that struck me is how little education Pip has gotten so far. He knows his letters, sort of, but that's all. Dickens is usually quite accurate about his social facts, so it would seem that this is not uncommon for children of working class people in the 1860s."

Pip does seem to have a desire to learn, at least a little bit, even before he meets Miss Havisham and Estella. Joe is illiterate, and I wonder if this is still another reason that Pip is a bit dissatisfied with his life and wants something better. He tries to share his (not much more than illiterate) learning with Joe, and wants to impress him by writing him a letter. Joe is mightily impressed, but cannot read it. Even if Pip does manage to acquire some knowledge, there is nobody at home to share it with, which he may find frustrating.

Denise wrote: "Ella's Gran wrote: "Something I found interesting was the male of the house referring to his wife as "mother". This was used when referring to her for any reason, "I'll send mother for the goods", ..."

And thinking further about that quaint tradition, it was better than hearing young children calling their parents by their given names just as they do with any adults these days - even their teachers! I must really be getting old uh?

Ella's Gran wrote: "Denise wrote: "Ella's Gran wrote: "Something I found interesting was the male of the house referring to his wife as "mother". This was used when referring to her for any reason, "I'll send mother f..."

Well, John called Yoko "Mother" long before they had Sean. In his case, I think it was his psychological yearning for a mother figure.

But, yes, to your point, my parents referred to each other as "Mommy" and "Daddy", or, later, "Mom" and "Dad" when talking to my brother and me! (BTW, I never grew out of calling them "Mommy" and "Daddy", while my brother later called them "Mom" and "Dad". I'll be 57 next week, and I still call my 90-year-old mother "Mommy"!)

In Chapter 2, it appears that Mrs. Gargery is the one in charge of both Pip and Joe.

My sister, Mrs. Joe Gargery, was more than twenty years older than I, and had established a great reputation with herself and the neighbours because she had brought me up 'by hand.' Having at that time to find out for myself what the expression meant, and knowing her to have a hard and heavy hand, and to be much in the habit of laying it upon her husband as well as upon me, I suppose that Joe Gargery and I were both brought up 'by hand.'

"Well," said Joe, glancing up at the Dutch clock, "she's been on the Ram-page, this last spell, about five minutes, Pip. She's a coming! Get behind the door, old chap, and have the jack towel betwixt you."

I took the advice. My sister, Mrs. Joe, throwing the door wide open, and finding an obstruction behind it, immediately divined the cause, and applied Tickler to its further investigation. She concluded by throwing me -- I often served as a connubial missile -- at Joe, who gladly to get hold of me on any terms, passed me on into the chimney and quietly fenced me up there with his great leg.

-- Oxford University Press