Multiverse--Michael Moorcock discussion

I have read some news that Netflix will adapt The Witcher as series. I am not even expressing my opinion those books are blatant rip offs, it just feels uneven to Mike's work with Elric.
Elric is a monumental dark fantasy character IMO.

No kidding—when I saw the promo pic, I thought it was Elric...until the hipster beard proved otherwise!

Daniel wrote: "I have read some news that Netflix will adapt The Witcher as series. I am not even expressing my opinion those books are blatant rip offs, it just feels uneven to Mike's work with Elric.
Elric is a..."

I must say that Geralt (the Witcher) is only an Elric rip-off in how he looks (and his "White Wolf" nickname). The actual character and stories are nothing at all like Elric.

I've only read one of the books (and played the 3 video games), but based on those it really is it's own thing (again, other than the physical description of the character and the nickname - which I agree are a rip-off of Elric).

Geralt The Witcher is more of a bounty hunter type character. I'd say he's almost more similar to early Han Solo crossed with Bronn from Game of Thrones than Elric.

As far as the actual stories, there is none of the psychedelic Elric stuff, no multiverse traveling, no aspects of an immortal champion, and no epic world or universe changing plot.

The Witcher stories are more like low-level grimdark stuff. A lot of mud and peasants and corrupt dukes and twisted creatures roaming the forests preying on passers-by.

I would almost say they give a feeling of a cross between a less gonzo/less silly version of Warhammer Fantasy (not the chaos demons part of Warhammer, but more the grungy political stuff like The Enemy Within) and maybe a bit of Grimm's Fairy Tales.

Joe wrote: "Daniel wrote: "I have read some news that Netflix will adapt The Witcher as series. I am not even expressing my opinion those books are blatant rip offs, it just feels uneven to Mike's work with El..."

I understand it Joe, thanks for the info. As a matter of fact, I have briefly read about Witcher's books. I was a bit frustrated knowing about these new series on Netflix because I was hoping for an Elric adaption produced by them, not a Witcher's one.

Totally agree that I'd rather have an Elric series than the Witcher one. No doubt about that.

However, I understand why they're doing Witcher.... it's a relatively hot property, mostly because it's pretty recent.

The books (well, at least the English translations) have come out between 2005 and 2018.

The video games came out between 2007 and 2015 (and a spin-off video game card game is in beta now). I believe the three Witcher games sold around 15 million copies combined.

Also within the last year or two there is a comic book line, a board game, a physical card game, and I believe a pen and paper RPG is in the works right now.

So from a $$$ perspective, I can see why Witcher is a hotter property than Elric right now. Elric is my all-time favorite, but it's (mostly) an older series, and has a sort of semi-niche following.

Fingers crossed that an Elric series does happen though. I know there are so many people (myself included) that are super passionate about the series.

I agree with Joe that the Elric resemblance is rather superficial and doesn't bear much scrutiny.

Though Geralt and Elric might be mistaken for one another in a police line-up, Geralt lives in an almost completely different sub-genre than Elric. I suppose if you want to push the Moorcock comparison further, The Witcher's world is more Warhound and the World's Pain than Young Kingdoms, but, again, the scope is much more down to earth and informed by Polish/Slavic folklore and myth.

If I remember right, there was no easy way for the Polish author to read Elric (or any Moorcock for that matter) when he first started writing Witcher stories. That said, I seem to remember thinking the author a bit evasive in some statements he made when questioned about the Elric similarities. It does seem to me like Geralt is what you might end up with if you saw one or more of Whelan's Elric covers and heard phrases like White Wolf and Black Blade and were inspired to write.

Also have to agree with the hot property point. I was recently in a big box bookstore and noticed a dozen or so Witcher books on the rack, while there were only two Moorcock books (which, given other recent new bookstore experiences, I was actually kind of surprised to see). On top of that there's the three, highly acclaimed and very popular The Witcher video games as well as two expansion packs.

Some years ago I was disconcerted to hear some young fellows tell me Conan was a Robert Jordan character. So I suspect it won't be long before some The Witcher fans claim Elric is the copy.

I'll add that I think the public rumblings of legal action against The Witcher were unfortunate and rash.

I remember seeing some bad reviews of Elric books on Amazon in retaliation and a lot of rude comments on various sites and forums.

Joe wrote: "Totally agree that I'd rather have an Elric series than the Witcher one. No doubt about that.

However, I understand why they're doing Witcher.... it's a relatively hot property, mostly because it'..."

I agree Joe, money talks. So far the only evidence that those witcher books are any good is that you recommended them to me. You know, the same happened with Michael Moorcock and Meshuggah :-)

I don't think it really matters how good the books are or aren't.

The video game adaptations of them are, not only critically acclaimed, but hugely popular in a way that most books, especially genre ones, just aren't.

As of spring 2017 The Witcher trilogy of video games sold over 25 million copies.

If the game hadn't appeared I doubt the books would have made much of an impact.

Therefore... the first step to an Elric movie is an Elric game?

Geralt The Witcher actually sounds like it will be pretty good, after reading this thread, even though I do not like it when Elric is copied, but in this case it seems like it is unrelated.

Although it's not a simultaneous creation, I think Michael Moorcock talked about ideas and how similar things can just appear in fiction. So, some things, features and content are not copied.

Unlike the Elric copy in Fire and Ice.
And the Elric copy in Hellboy 2.

For some reason I am loath to picture Elric with stubble.

Is the movie version of Lucius Malfoy also going to get called out as an Elric knock-off?

I agree with Lemec, especially as Heresiologist has persuaded me to buy a few Witcher books! Thanks for the fuller information, guys. I had zero clue about the history of that series. When were public remarks about a contemplated lawsuit made, and who made them? Seems like that would’ve been some time ago.

Heresiologist wrote: "For some reason I am loath to picture Elric with stubble.

Is the movie version of Lucius Malfoy also going to get called out as an Elric knock-off?"

There was a thread at multiverse. I am not sure but it seems that MM has given up the idea of a lawsuit. I actually do not play video games, at least in the last 18 years I only watch my kids playing.

Daniel wrote: "There was a thread at multiverse. I am not sure but it seems that MM has given up the idea of a lawsuit. I actually do not play video games, at least in the last 18 years I only watch my kids playing. "

Yeah, I kind of had that thread in mind when I said I thought the threat of legal action was unfortunate and rash. Somebody should have looked more closely into the matter before going public. All it seemed to do was generate a lot of ill will on the part of Witcher game lovers.

Given Elric's acknowledged, though partial, debt to Monsier Zenith, plus the whole "inverse Conan" idea (not to mention the long list of, mostly villainous, albinos in popular culture down the years) I'm really hesitant to declare any character an "Elric copy." At least in public or in haste.

On the other hand, making a character albino produces such a distinctive look, I imagine just about any standard looking fantasy albino with a sword (or telescoping spear in Prince Nuada's case) is going to look similar. It's not like Conan where you can make him blonde and call him He-Man or Thundarr.

In somewhat related news Amazon has announced development of a Conan tv series that is supposed to hew closely to the original RE Howard stories.

https://screenrant.com/conan-barbaria...

Between Conan and The Witcher stands Elric?

Heresiologist wrote: "Daniel wrote: "There was a thread at multiverse. I am not sure but it seems that MM has given up the idea of a lawsuit. I actually do not play video games, at least in the last 18 years I only watc..."

I do not know about The Witcher but Conan seems to be the complete antithesis of Elric. Honestly I liked Conan comics a lot but never got into the books.

Daniel wrote: "I do not know about The Witcher but Conan seems to be the complete antithesis of Elric. Honestly I liked Conan comics a lot but never got into the books. "

I'm pretty sure MM is on record as saying Elric's character creation process involved some amount of just making him the opposite of Conan. So Elric, unlike barbarian Conan, is the product of a decadent civilization; Elric, unlike Conan who at best distrusts magic, is a great sorceror; Elric, unlike brawny Conan, is not physically overpowering...

Also, to clarify, I see Elric as "between" Conan and The Witcher because Conan precedes Elric while Elric precedes The Witcher.

Anyway... no matter how much they claim to want to stick close to the original stories, I really doubt the adaptations will retain the egregious racism found in some of those stories. Similarly, I expect they will tone down the sexism somewhat.

In yet more somewhat related Amazon television news, they've announced adaptation of Iain Banks' novel Consider Phlebas

Daniel wrote: "Heresiologist wrote: "Daniel wrote: "There was a thread at multiverse. I am not sure but it seems that MM has given up the idea of a lawsuit. I actually do not play video games, at least in the las..."

Producers and writers can follow Disney loathsome process of reviewing conceptual "mistakes" in the creation of well known characters using the sacred precepts of the political correctness hornbook and make the character Conan a transgender, new atheist, fighter of social injustices and his biggest enemy could be an oppressive emperor of evil named King Trunfo. :-)

Speaking of new shows, have anyone seen altered carbon? I loved it.

Daniel wrote: "Producers and writers can follow Disney loathsome process of reviewing conceptual "mistakes" in the creation of well known characters using the sacred precepts of the political correctness hornbook and make the character Conan a transgender, new atheist, fighter of social injustices and his biggest enemy could be an oppressive emperor of evil named King Trunfo. :-) "

You forgot to mention that Mickey Mouse was born in Kenya but the cultural marxists who obviously run Disney, in league with the deep state, have suppressed the evidence by hiding the birth certificate in the secret labyrinth under the pizzagate restaurant and it's all because it would threaten their plans to secretly turn us all into homosexuals and ban our beloved bibles, bullets and beef.

Really though, what I expect from this new, more faithful to the original stories, Conan is the tv equivalent of the Conan comics (but more boobs and blood), especially the ones from the Roy Thomas years. If that's too much political correctness, so be it.

Daniel wrote: "Speaking of new shows, have anyone seen altered carbon? I loved it."

I mentioned starting to watch it over in the Multimedia thread. Now that I've finished, yeah, I thought it was pretty good.

A friend of mine was one of the nameless plague sufferers visited by the rich villain in episode five. And to bring things back to Vancouver, the mansion with the fancy garden was a highly CGI-ed Vancouver City Hall.

Did you see it translated and did they mention Harlan's World? I'm pretty sure that's a sci-fi reference to this: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6...

I'd like them to continue the series. If it does well enough it could even lead to another sword and sorcery tv series because Altered Carbon's author (Richard Morgan) wrote a trilogy (A Land fit for Heroes) that seems to take place in the far flung future of Takeshi Kovacs' universe. Kovacs himself, but known as Dakovash or Takovach, seems to be one of the godlike beings that occasionally appear in the books.

Really though, what I expect from this new, more faithful to the original stories, Conan is the tv equivalent of the Conan comics (but more boobs and blood), especially the ones from the Roy Thomas years. If that's too much political correctness, so be it.

I never got into the original stories, but God knows I have tried. But as a teenager and my at early 20s I read a lot of Conan comics, mostly borrowed from friends who collected the black and white stories. It was so long ago that I cannot remember them well- late 80s and start of 90s ). I also loved the Conan The King stories, colored unlike the previous ones and more varied and thematically interesting, so the 19 years kid in me remembers them.

I mentioned starting to watch it over in the Multimedia thread. Now that I've finished, yeah, I thought it was p..."

While watching I told myself that many of the external scenes and scenes in forests were from Vancouver but I was not sure of course, but with years watching the best shows always filmed there I always see myself saying "that is Vancouver!" .

I saw the subtitled version on Netflix and I think remember something about Harlan's World, but I am not sure where. I have never read Harlan Ellison otherwise that would have made me remember it.

I also hope there are more seasons, in fact, I read they got green light to produce season 2, but with Netflix marketing strategies we can expect to watch it in 2020 ( It is just me or anyone else is looking forward for OA second season ?).

If I were Netflix, I would continue with all the saga started withy Altered Carbon, it is a very good source material, a lot more deep and complex than the overestimated Black Mirror ( science fiction for hipsters ?) and a lot more cooler.

Thanks for the tip on A Land fit for Heroes, I am checking it now!

Daniel wrote: "While watching I told myself that many of the external scenes and scenes in forests were from Vancouver but I was not sure of course, but with years watching the best shows always filmed there I always see myself saying "that is Vancouver!" "

Besides the way they "enhanced" Vancouver City Hall, I rather liked how they used another, well known and often filmed, landmark known as the Qube building.

And in still more fantasy and sci-fi tv adaptation news, BBC studios has announced work on adapting Terry Pratchett's Discworld City Watch stories.