Poldark Saga - Winston Graham discussion

I just started reading the books a couple of months ago and I am for the most part caught up on the show. I am currently reading the Four Swans and I love it. I am glad that I joined this group because I have learned a lot. I wanted to express some of my opinions in the show and book. I feel like the book makes Ross's character more likable than the show; especially when it comes to Demelza. I feel like he takes her for granted in the show.I do believe that Demezla is the love of his life, but his actions can state otherwise. Also, as much as it pains for me to say, I love Demelza character on the show rather then the book. I feel like the show gives her a backbone and a voice in her relationship with Ross. I never got that from the book. I am curious, since I am still reading the books, does she stay the same or do we see her evolve? I want to write more, but I think I better stop for now.

Selena wrote: "I feel like the book makes Ross's character more likable than the show; especially when it comes to Demelza."
With books, we get to see what's going on inside his head. That's a hard thing to do in a show. So WE know how much Ross cares about Demelza from the books, but want to kick him because he doesn't express himself very well.

Book Demelza was an accurate portrayal of a wife of the times. Certainly liked the Demelza that reacted to Ross' spending the whole night in Elizabeth's bed. In the book it crushed her, but she suffered mostly in silence. TV writers plumped up the love triangle between R and E, to show that Ross always wanted Elizabeth. His love (on TV) for Demelza was different. Affectionate, quiet love, but Demelza wanted the kind of longing and admiration he had for Elizabeth.

Barbara wrote: "Book Demelza was an accurate portrayal of a wife of the times. Certainly liked the Demelza that reacted to Ross' spending the whole night in Elizabeth's bed. In the book it crushed her, but she suf..."
I think Demelza's reaction to Ross' infidelity was her attempt at revenge by going to the Bodruggan ball. It didn't work of course. I think book Demelza kept most of her feelings bottled up but in the series they were expressed as rage at Ross. She was wounded by Ross' infidelity but I think book Demelza is the stronger because she contains her feelings and to some extent works through them. Series Demelza acts out her feelings and it doesn't seem to help resolve the problem they both have. Ross of course is hopeless with words. He cannot talk to Demelza about what happened because he first had to work it all out for himself. All this is easier to portray in a book as has been said.

Stella wrote: "Barbara wrote: "Book Demelza was an accurate portrayal of a wife of the times. Certainly liked the Demelza that reacted to Ross' spending the whole night in Elizabeth's bed. In the book it crushed ..."

I agree, Stella. I understand that a show can't capture every nuance like a book can, but I still wish Demelza hadn't been so loudly angry throughout series 3. All the bickering and nagging was very off for her. I miss the playfulness and joy of series 1. Snarky comments and loud arguments don't equal strength of character, but that seems to be what the show creators thought, which I think is a shame because Demelza doesn't need those things in order to be strong in the books. She's still feisty and has a temper, but she's also quietly strong, resilient, determined, funny, ever laughing and joking, and willing to admit her mistakes. There's also never any doubt that she loves Ross more than life, and many fans seemed to question that while series 3 was airing. I will always love the show and Eleanor Tomlinson's work for the character, but I just wish the writing this past season had done book Demelza better justice!

I agree, Elizabeth. To me, book Demelza is much stronger than TV Demelza. TV Demelza seems to fall apart every time Ross does something that isn't fixed on her. Book Demelza is insecure in that she sometimes doesn't think she "fits in" with the people who are now her peers, she doesn't think she's as beautiful as Elizabeth. But she seems to know that Ross loves her. TV Demelza is unsure of that, and combined with her insecurities, turned her into a shrew in this past season.

The difference in the book characters and the show characters could be the gender of the writers. Winston from a male point of view, Debbie's the female's. I might be one of the few here that didn't get bothered by Demelza in season 3. Her child had died, she had a toddler and she thought Ross' priorities in life were off and she didn't understand why. I thought she felt he could help his village by accepting a position in government. It turns out she is right later on.

I wonder if there has ever been a TV series/book that has been discussed or argued by so many fans. It is so much fun. I think we all will never agree, except that we are not fans of the writers of the TV series. My favorite discussion is whether Ross or Demelza is more to blame for their indiscretions.

I like how both the book and tv show really look at marriage and show it as something that can be worked on and how things can be worked through. It's fairly realistic and more relatable than many other fictionalized versions of marriage.

Barbara wrote: "I wonder if there has ever been a TV series/book that has been discussed or argued by so many fans. It is so much fun. I think we all will never agree, except that we are not fans of the writers of..."
Barbara and Kristen, I completely agree..... It's obviously Winston's writing style of leading the reader to a big event and not fleshing out the particulars. That leads to discussion and different reasons for the character's motivation.

Here's a tidbit I haven't seen posted.... R & D were married on Jun 24 1787 ( http://www.tiki-toki.com/timeline/ent... ) Demelza cheated on Jun 18 1797 ( https://time.graphics/line/47881 ) That's right, 6 days before her 10th anniversary..... Do you think she thought cuckold was the 10th gift? haha

Barbara wrote: "I wonder if there has ever been a TV series/book that has been discussed or argued by so many fans. It is so much fun. I think we all will never agree, except that we are not fans of the writers of..."
May I suggest that neither Ross or Demelza are to blame but the fault lies with the snake, Hugh Armitage. To make my point consider this:
Looking back on this last season DH seems to have painted a compelling picture of Hugh Armitage as an earnest young man hopeless in love with Demelza, himself torn between that love and desire, and his respect, gratitude and friendship for Ross. I believe a more careful consideration of his words makes the case that he is an evil person of, if you will, biblical proportions; the personification of the serpent from the Garden of Eden. Moreover, it is DH, herself that first suggest such a comparison with the exchange between Demelza and Hugh from S3E7. When Hugh approaches Demelza as other guests are bowling in the hall, he notices some flowers and says, "Blooms from the Garden of Eden. But where lurks Eve?) And, (she says) where the snake?" The answer to Demelza's question is, "right in front of you."

From Genesis 3 we know it is the serpent (snake) that temps Eve with the first recorded lie. Roughly, here is the verse: "Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals God had made. The serpent said to Eve, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'? The Eve said not exactly, but "God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.'" The serpent then lies to Eve when he says, "You will not certainly die. For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil," and Eve eats the fruit of the forbidden tree.

From S3E9, here is the exchange between Hugh and Demelza, which likewise is full of lies: (H) (Ross) is great man, my savior and friend. But you are, …. (D) His wife and mother of his children. (H) And I have no wish to threaten them. (D) I would not allow it. (H) Your head may not, but would your heart? It is to the heart that I now appeal. The heart which, dare I say it, has been neglected. Can you allow me this, shall we grant ourselves to each other so that I am go into the darkness knowing that I … I once tasted heaven?

Hugh first praises Ross and then when Demelza reminds him that she is wife and mother of his children he says he has no wish to threaten that, but does he mean what he says. Of course not, because when she says that, he says, that is from your head, not your heart, and moves in for the kill. Earlier he played the, "I am going blind card," to move her to hold his hand in public, now he plays it again to get what he wants, his "taste of heaven."

Hugh's afternoon of lies starts with the first words out of his month. He tells Demelza that he abandoned his squadron and came to her to show his love, then he admits that was not true, that he was dismissed from the Navy because he was going blind. The he tells her that he respects Ross as his savior and friend, and that he would not threaten tranquility of her family, and that was not true because he presses her for sexual favors by telling her that her defense of her family is from her head, not her heart. Then he plays the pity card again to get what he wants. She was as foolish as Eve, who believed the serpent and set aside what she knew was right. And, if you look at her in the last scene of season 3, when she goes back to Ross later that evening, she knows that what she did was not right.

To take the biblical analogy just a little further, I suspect that night Hugh had about as much remorse or concern for the consequences for what had happen that day, as the serpent had for Eve taking a bite of that apple. It fell to God to punch the serpent, I wonder who and how Hugh will be punish? We also know that there were dire consequences for Eve and Adam for what she did, and if what WG wrote in The Angry Tide is carried through in season 4, there will be dire consequences for Demelza and Ross.

One further point about seeing Hugh as the biblical serpent of the Garden of Eden, in the Hebrew tradition the serpent represents "sexual desire" which Wikipedia defines as "a wish, need or drive to seek out sexual objects or to engage in sexual activities." What could be more apropos of Hugh.

Bernie wrote: "Barbara wrote: "I wonder if there has ever been a TV series/book that has been discussed or argued by so many fans. It is so much fun. I think we all will never agree, except that we are not fans o..."
A powerful argument, Bernie and one with which I agree. You put it beautifully. I wonder if WG got his inspiration for this piece of writing from this biblical source.

Ken wrote: "Barbara wrote: "I wonder if there has ever been a TV series/book that has been discussed or argued by so many fans. It is so much fun. I think we all will never agree, except that we are not fans o..."
spot on Bernie.... all the points that have been running through my mind. I like you included the first lie of leaving the Navy because of his love for her. what a snake.
I think someone could make the point Hugh didn't have her verbal permission to continue, because the last thing she says is she wouldn't allow it. That says NO to me.... of course her actions seemed to give permission.
I really liked the way Winston wrote the tryst, because Demelza fought against all his advances..... she refused to be hypnotized by his words, but in the end she had not refused him.

It seems to me that all Demelza's good intentions seem to fly back in her face. Verity and Blamey first ended with Francis shot, second a major riff with George where he blamed Ross..... Helping Liz, Francis, and Geoffery Charles ended with Julia's death... Drake and Rosina didn't end well... Showing kindness to Hugh almost ended her marriage.... Being polite to Monk and not shutting him down ended in his death and Ross shot. (of course this was also related to her adultery.) When ever she meddles thing seem to go bad. I'm not saying she's not trying to be kind, things just seem to blow up for her.

Barbara wrote: "I wonder if there has ever been a TV series/book that has been discussed or argued by so many fans. It is so much fun. I think we all will never agree, except that we are not fans of the writers of..."
As we wait for season 4, we are at a very interesting point in the Ross-Demelza-Hugh triangle. Putting WG's books aside as DH has, I have no idea how the story will progress from where we were on the dunes at Hendrawna Sands, with Demelza in the arms of Hugh thinking she might not return to Ross; to her returning to Ross, visible upset and clinging to him; to the loving valentine day trailers of a happy and playful couple.
What do you think happened between the SANDs and Ross's bedroom? What will happen the next morning, will Demelza answer Ross incomplete question? What will happen when Demelza and Hugh next meet? What will happen when Ross meets Hugh? How will Hugh depart the scene, as surely he will. We know how WG handles things because it is what The Angry Tide is all about. Will DH's season 4, have an angry tide?

Bernie wrote: "Barbara wrote: "I wonder if there has ever been a TV series/book that has been discussed or argued by so many fans. It is so much fun. I think we all will never agree, except that we are not fans o..."
Bernie, I'm guessing DH's "Angry Tide" is the name of a pub in London. :))
We have the same questions. I wonder how Debbie is going to handle D reflecting on her reason/excuses the night she got out of bed..... lots of great material......
"It seemed to her if she committed adultery it was for the wrong reasons, and if she was sorry she committed it, it was again for the wrong reasons."
Do you think Debbie will use a first person narrator?
I still want DH to tell us what she meant by "she thought she might not return"... I can't honestly think she was considering leaving Ross and the kids for snake boy.
I do think DH will pull them back together with a near death experience for Ross. I don't think it will be the mine accident that's suppose to happen in the first episode. I think it will be the fishing accident with the nets (just a guess, of course)

Ken wrote: "Bernie wrote: "Barbara wrote: "I wonder if there has ever been a TV series/book that has been discussed or argued by so many fans. It is so much fun. I think we all will never agree, except that we..."

Ken, the title Angry Tide comes from an exchange between Ross and Verity. Verity asks, "'Ross, you are happy in your new life? - with Demelza?" He says, "You probe too deep." But, continues, "one or two things have happened, Verity. Oh, I know they are small things - small to set beside the great - and they are best forgot on both sides, and indeed many times are forgot. But now and then you do not have all the control of your feelings that you should have - and then thoughts and feelings surge up in you like - like an angry tide. And it is hard, sometimes it is hard to control the tide."

The tide, which is the central theme of this book, and therefore should/would be in WG's version of season 4 is Ross's all-consuming anger and jealousy, and what it does to his marriage. Demelza is clear and has been even before her tryst with Hugh. She loves Ross and wants to be with him. She does not fret for Hugh, and says to Ross, "Hugh came into my life! I can't tell you why - and into my heart, where before there had only ever been you. But it is over. That is all I can say.' Ross, says, 'Because he is dead?' Demelza says, 'It is over, Ross."
Ross's response which dominates the book/season 4 is "'I had no idea when I came home [from London] how we were to meet. I have no idea at this moment whether we shall ever laugh together again - in that way. I want you, I want you, but there's anger and jealousy in it still, and they die hard. I can't say more."
What I don't see is how DH's modern Demelza will react if the Ross she faces is angry and jealousy. If Ross's behavior before was a problem for her, his post-Hugh anger and jealousy should send her running. If that is not the way Ross acts, then I have no idea what season 4 will be all about. Maybe then DH's Angry Tide will be no more than the name of a pub in London.

Bernie wrote: "Ken wrote: "Bernie wrote: "Barbara wrote: "I wonder if there has ever been a TV series/book that has been discussed or argued by so many fans. It is so much fun. I think we all will never agree, ex..."
Bernie, I think we're going to see a U-turn (haha) in modern Demelza's attitude. There's no way she can respond to Ross's anger and jealousy with anger of her own. The marriage would implode. I don't think Demelza will be sorry for the tryst, the definitely sorry she got caught. When Ross has his "tell me what you want, Demelza" (D) nothing more than what I have.... (R) had..... she said, "Tell me what you want me to do?".... (R) Leave or stay, just as you wish...... (D) "Leave?" she said, " I don't want to leave. How could I possible go away from here - from all, all that we have together?".......(R) Perhaps you should have thought of that before"..... (D) " Yes, she said, standing up " Perhaps I should"

Demelza is going to shake in her boots when Ross has this discussion about leaving. This was her worst fear when she reflected on that day. Demelza didn't really regret the adultery, she regretted getting caught. Although she did say she didn't like herself very much the night she was going over her excuses.

I do think DH will pull them back together with a Ross near death experience. That will put her back on track for the sick bed and all that follows in TAT. I think she will write Ross as only suspecting he was cuckold, and confirming it when he finds the poem and sees her at the bed.
DH has written herself into a bit of a box having Ross know she was with Hugh and seeing her face when she returned that night. I hope she has written something believable so we can enjoy S4, if not, I'll be here bitching after her weekly offering. Sometimes I think it OK she screwed up S3, it sparked a lot more discussion................................................ nah

I've come to like the final scene, one of the few additions to the story Dh got right, probably because there's very little dialogue, but the acting by Aidan and Eleanore was superb. You could see the fear of anticipation in Demelza's eyes as she entered the bedroom. She was obviously expecting an angry Ross exploding and who knows what he would do.... I'm sure she thought back to her father beating her and her punching Ross when he cheated.... She immediately softened when she realized Ross was in control of his emotions. (great acting by both)

Right I have to admit DH got a lot more fan involment then she would have if she stuck with the book.

I actually blame Demelza more then Hugh for the affair. Won’t most happily married women been insulted to have a man suggest adultery, a man who call her husband a good friend and savior? I think so. Yet Delmeza wasn’t insulted, she was intrigued and although her lips said no, her eyes said yes. Really she could of shutdown Hughes advances from the get go with a little moral indignation when he first starts courting her.

Bernie wrote: "Right I have to admit DH got a lot more fan involment then she would have if she stuck with the book."
Absolutely Harold, I completely agree. Especially TV Demelza, who was more than eager to get sand where it doesn't belong. I've written several posts on other pages about DH making Demelza the aggressor in the adultery, not the reluctant wife WG wrote about. She suggested the walk, she picked the spot, she pulled him down, she kissed him (even though it was passionless), and she put his hand up her dress. Demelza seduced Hugh when she surrendered.
I won't blame Ross a bit when he overreacts to Monk. The key to the gates of heaven, seems to be a flower for her.
I got really blasted when I suggested this was the second time she cheated. I don't know about you, but if my wife was throwing herself at men in public, giving McNeil permission to come to her room, making out and letting him feel her up.......... That's cheating in my book, I don't care if she didn't go all the way.
Transpose that feeling forward, and letting Monk fondle her arm at the play, I may have reacted exactly the same when Demelza told Ross Monk was in their room with flowers. (she didn't even stop him before he grabbed her breast, of course Ross never knows) I wonder how Ross would have reacted if he knew Demelza kissed Hugh Bedrugan for information? I guess Ross's quip about chasing Hugh out of her bed, wasn't totally ridiculous.

Add every thing together and Demelza seems to have a semi-slut gene that expresses its self when males show her attention. haha

Which Demelza are you refers to? One thing that has troubled me from the first was the way it was fashionable for men to openly court married women. In the book when Demelza asks if she should go with Caroline and Dwight to see Hugh, Ross approves and says men like their wives to be chased by others but not to be caught. When Ross see Demelza and realizes the depth of her feeling he thinks that this has not worked out the way he had thought. Later in London and Paris he acts accordingly but here he is almost complicit not supporting her. See how he fails to act when she cries for help with her I wish I was two people speech from the book. But as for Hugh, his friend. What is his excuse?

Bernie wrote: "Which Demelza are you refers to? One thing that has troubled me from the first was the way it was fashionable for men to openly court married women. In the book when Demelza asks if she should go w..."
I had TV Demelza in mind..... yes, I did reference TAT for what we haven't seen...... I never considered Demelza a loose woman in the books.... Winston wrote her as the reluctant wife whose lust and opportunity melted her resolve to keep her vows...... DH's girl is a different character, who is more sexually aggressive. At least in my opinion.
I do blame Ross for not shutting down the Hugh thing.... I think he was testing her love after being disappointed by Elizabeth twice. Trusting her to do the right thing and being understanding about her attraction to Hugh, was just plain stupid. Ross got exactly what he allowed to happen.

Ken wrote: "Bernie wrote: "Which Demelza are you refers to? One thing that has troubled me from the first was the way it was fashionable for men to openly court married women. In the book when Demelza asks if ..."
There was more to it in terms of the acceptance of men openly courting married women. Here is something I first wrote when I started posting on a different board.

A lot has been written about Demelza infidelity fully exposed in TFS, but I want to place the "courting" of Demelza in the correct historical context. It goes to the issue of how despicable was Hugh Armitage's behavior going after a married women, Demeliza's accepting of his attentions, and Ross's passivity.

The Courting of Demelza

Even before Hugh comes on the scene I was put off by the practice of men openly courting married women. It is so foreign to what we would expect and allow today, but it seemed to be commonplace in the late 18th century. For example, in Demelza (p. 221) at the party we see:

Competition for Demelza was still strong. …. It was her own fault that at that stage the snarling grew worse, … she had been careless what she said, and no less than three men thought she had promised the dance. … First they argued with her, then they argues with each other, and then they appealed to her gain. Demelza … said they should toss a coin for her. .. . Sir Hugh grew angry and said he had no intention of gaming on a ballroom floor for any women. All the same, he was not willing to give up the women. … Oh, Demelza," said Sir Hugh … A later dance, Certainly."
Here we see Demelza, new to the social scene, learning to play the game, the same game she would eventually play with a different Hugh, Hugh Armitage. And, how did Ross feel about this all? I can't find the passage but what I remember, he was both put off that she was getting some much attention and proud that he had a wife that other coveted, as when Pascoe, says, "Your wife. I understand, was quite the success of the evening" (D, p. 236). But it was not just at the ball, for that was the start of flirtatious courting, i.e., "She had heard all about Mistress Poldark having been a great success at the celebration ball, and quite a number of people had been riding over to see her"(D, p. 281).

I was very curious about such how such behavior could be tolerated, goggled marriage in the 18th century among the upper class of England, and found a number of items that touched on the subject.

In the early nineteenth century, ... what counted for appropriate sexual behavior- (in) the high society that Byron (1788-1824) enjoyed during his heyday in England was most striking for adhering to older, looser codes. In such society, adultery was commonplace and unremarkable so long as it was conducted with the proper degree of discretion. May of the great Wig ladies of London society had chequered pasts and were known to have had numerous out-of-wedlock affairs. Byron's adulterous flings with such women become biographical blur because they succeeded each other so quickly. As for working-class women, men of Byron's class traditionally assuming that such women were sexually available. (Drummond Bone , ed, The Cambridge Companion to Byron, Cambridge University Press, 2004, p. 65)

Another reference to the social norms of the time with reference to the "country" suggests that things might not have gone so far in Cornwall, but later explains what happens when Ross and Demelza goes to London, were she says she is out of her depth:

The ideal of marital fidelity also contrasted with reality, especially in upper circles of society. The Restoration of the Stuarts brought a change of moral climate and a release in manners. Practising adultery became a kind of fashion in high society, as is so well-documented by a number of Restoration comedies, such as The Country Wife by William Wycherley. We should realize, however, that the libertine lifestyle was mostly a matter of the London elite. In the country, the values of the previous generation remained largely unchanged. It is worth noting that one of the popular topics of Restoration plays was the difference between the hedonistic London society and the 'chaste' country.( Alice Brabcová, Marriage in Seventeenth-Century England: The Women's Story)

With this background I suggest that Hugh's flirtatious courting was not completely out of bounds-in one blog someone referred to him a Bryon light- and his statements of love and his poems were not beyond what was acceptable; nor was Demelza's response; nor the Ross failed to break it up. For those who say Hugh did not act as a gentleman, all I can say is that for the time is was acting exactly like a gentleman of his class was expect to act. All was possible as long as it was with proper degree of discretion, and everything that transpired with Hugh and Demelza was done with the proper degree of discretion, up to and including his thank you note to Demelza in a way that Ross could have read because it was "formal enough, a polite letter thanking her for her hospitality on Tuesday and expressing a hope that she and Ross would done again at Tregothnan before he returned home" (TFS, pp. 429-430)

So with this as background let's read of the initial encounter between Demelza and Hugh. She is ready to play the game, the flirtatious game she has played before, but this time from the very beginning something seems different.

On introduction Lieutenant Armitage had not meant anything to Demelza, until she saw him greet Ross, …. (At dinner) Demelza was opposite Lieutenant Armitage. (She sat next to General Macarmick who was) polite and charming to everyone, but in between courses when his hands were nit engaged he repeatedly felt Demelza's leg above the knee. (TFS,p. 78)
She sometimes wondered what there was about herself that made men so forthcoming. In those early days when when had gone to various receptions and balls she had always had them two or three deep asking for the next dance-and often more besides. … If she had know herself to be supremely beautiful or striking-as beautiful, for stance, as Elizabeth Warleggan, or as striking as Caroline Enys-it might have been more acceptable. Instead of that she was just friendly, and they took it the wrong way. Or else they sensed something particularly female about her hat set them off. Or else because of her lack of breeding they thought she would be easy game. Or else it happened to everybody. She must ask Ross how often he squeezed women's legs under the dinning table. (TFS, p. 79)
(It appears that Armitage singularly focused on Demelza because when he was asked to talk) he took is eyes of Demelza and said …." (TFS, p. 80)
(And the game starts) From the beginning Demelza found herself partnered with Lieutenant Armitage. It was not deliberate on her part, but she knew it was on his. (TFS, p. 83)…
Hugh Armitage said: 'Shall we walk to the lake first? …. Demelza hesitated, and then went with him. Their interchange so far had been pleasant, formal and light. A pleasant post-prandial stroll in the country garden in the company of a pleasant polite young man. Compared to the predatory conquerors she had kept at bay in the past … this was completely without risk, danger or any other hazard. But it didn't feel like it-which was the trouble. This young man's hawk profile, deep sensitive dark eyes and gentle urgent voice moved her strangely. And some danger perhaps existed not so much in the strength of the attack as in the sudden weakness of the defense. (TFS, p. 85)

What is going on here; why does this game seem different; Demelza tells us in her own words near the end of TFS: "Sheer physical attraction, which she felt from the moment they had first met" (TFS, p. 429) In my words, lust, which the dictionary defines as "an intense sexual desire or appetite; a passionate or overmastering desire or craving." This statement colored the rest of TFS, which is all about how Demelza is torn between her lust for Hugh, and her love for Ross. It is a battle that gives here great pain and which she describes as "pulling at her heartstrings." One should find great joy in being loved and giving love, but not Demelza. Her next year will be "the agony of divided loyalties," (TAT, p. 371) an agony she will not be relieved from until Hugh dies and she can say, "For a time … Hugh came into my life! I can't tell you why-and into my heart, where before there had only been you. But it is over, That is all I can say' (TAT, pp. 36-37)

Bernie wrote: "Ken wrote: "Bernie wrote: "Which Demelza are you refers to? One thing that has troubled me from the first was the way it was fashionable for men to openly court married women. In the book when Deme..."
First the morals of the upper aristocratic in London and that of country side were very very different. Cornwall was part of the countryside so let’s not fool ourselves
That discreet liaisons were the accepted morals in Cornwall.
I find Demelza to be a huge disappointment. Yes it was about lust, which could of been forgiven, but she turned into a love affair in her mind when Hugh died. Her telling Ross ( while admitting nothing concrete) it is over, was like saying lucky you, my lover is dead so you got no worries , what would you like for dinner? She didn’t regret her infidelity, oh no she was going to cherish the memories and Ross should just be relieved that Hughes death put a stop to it.
Really allowing Hugh to court her whenever Ross was out of sight
was in my mind disgracefully, but Demelza doesn’t or won’t recognize that. Secret meetings, secret notes or poems all secretly hide from her husband. There really isn’t a apple to apple comparison to Ross one night with Elizabeth, but Demelza does try to make the infidelities seem similar but they are in fact much different. Then to top it off Demelza doesn’t even feel bad about her behavior, it will be something she cherish for life. I really don’t know how a husband would be able to put this behind him.

Harold wrote: "Bernie wrote: "Ken wrote: "Bernie wrote: "Which Demelza are you refers to? One thing that has troubled me from the first was the way it was fashionable for men to openly court married women. In the..."

I believe that Demelza never loved Hugh, but lusted for him. Consider that on the beach she keeps saying no and then we are told, "She began to trace figures in the sand. Her heart was beating as if there was a drum inside her. Her mouth was so dry she could not swallow. The nakedness of her body inside her frock seemed to have suddenly become more apparent to her, seemed to flower. She gave a slight groan which she tried to suppress altogether but could not quite. He sat back looking at her, a foot away from touching her. 'What is it?' 'Please let us go.' 'May I just then kiss you?' She raised her head and pushed her hair back. 'It would be quite wrong.' 'But you will permit it?' 'Perhaps I cannot stop you.' He moved towards her, and knew the moment he touched her that something had won his battle for him. (TFS, p. 413-414)
Do you really think it was love that had won his battle for him, or what we are told later "So what was the reason? Attraction, sheer physical attraction, which she had felt from the moment they had first met last year." (TFS, p. 429), which she seems to regret in short order, as she says to herself, "she had betrayed all -what she had with Ross- in a sudden unexpected quirk of pity and love and passion for a man she scarcely knew who happened to call and ask It was not quite credible. … She felt no less in love with Ross than before - perhaps, perversely, a little more so. She felt no different - or very little different - towards Hugh Armitage. She was taken with him, warmed by his love and returning some of it. … The experience, the physical experience, if one could separate it even in one's thoughts from the heart-stopping tension and sweet excitement of the day, had not in essence varied from what she had known before. … At the moment, what had happened on Tuesday was an event in isolation, unconnected with the past, unattached to the future. But if Ross knew of it, even got to suspect it, then the anonymity of the experience would be shattered, the isolation broken into, and her life with him might be laid waste. It was not an agreeable thought, and, standing at the window … she did not much like herself." (TFS, p. 427-431)
Some have argued that it must have been love because she keeps the poems, but the poems were important to her not because she loved him, but because she thought that they showed that he loved her, a miner's daughter. Demelza always, to the end has problem understanding how any educated person, a person of culture could take her for a lady. She always thinks of herself as a fraud, but Hugh's poems suggest something otherwise, and she cannot destroy them. Consider when she gets the poem with the formal thank you note written so Ross might see it she thinks, "However little or much the incident might come to mean in future years, the poem meant something. It meant something to her and she could not lose it." (TFS, p. 433).
Well, what did it mean? We are told in TAT, "Sometimes Demelza took out Hugh Armitage's poems and read them over. Had she inspired such passion? An educated young man, a lieutenant in the navy, who claimed he had known many women in his short life and loved only one … Well, that was gone forever, and she did not want it back, with its pulling at her heartstrings, the agony of divided loyalties. … She goes on to think, "Verity knew nothing of Hugh Armitage; she had never met him and therefore would be unable to understand or even guess at his terrible attraction." (TAT.pp. 370-371)

Earlier when Ross asks her "'… how far your feelings have become involved.' Demelza stared soberly out of the window. … 'I don't know myself, Ross, and that is the honest truth. I only know …' 'Yes?' 'His feelings for me.' 'And that matters?' 'It matters. How can it help but? … (TFS. p. 462).
When Ross confronts her immediately after Hugh's death, while she says she is not sure about how she feels about Hugh, but she is sure how she feels about Ross: "'How can I say truthfully, when I am not sure myself? I tell you, it came on me unawares. It was the last thing I ever sought. Now my heart feels broken. … Oh, Ross, will you not hold me?' 'Yes,' he said, doing it. 'Please hold me and never let me go.' 'Nor shall I, if you give me the chance.' 'Not till we die. Ross, I could not live without you … (D) All I know is that I love you. I suppose that's all that really matters.' (R) 'It's what matters to me.'" (TFS, 480-1)
After the initial shock of Hugh's death, I cannot find one sentence in any of the books that shows that she mourned for Hugh. We do know that what she mourned for after Hugh's death was her close relationship with Ross: "Never since Hugh Armitage's death had there been total ease between them. Love and laughter, she had discovered before this, could exist on a plane which was not at all superficial but which did not penetrate to the depths of one's being. It had been so five years ago; it was so again now. She longed more than anything for the total submersion in each other that had occurred at other times. Only when it was withdrawn did one observe the tremendous gap that existed between that and the next stage." (TAT, p. 207)
She does tell Clowance that she has had two people in her life that gave an "electric charges when you hear them, see them, feel them," (TLC. p. 313) one being Hugh. While Clowance calls that love, I think Demelza knows it not as true love, but is the "sheer physical attraction," the "his terrible attraction" she felt for Hugh.
So my take is she lust after him, but did not love him as she did Ross. She say," She was taken with him, warmed by his love and returning some of it" but solely reserved the word love to describe her feeling for Ross. (TFS, P.430). She put even the lust behind her very quickly, thinking that "the physical experience … had not in essence varied from what she had known before," was "unlikely to recur again," and when he says "When can I see you again?," she answers, "Not, I believe, for a long time." (TFS, p. 431) That is not to say she did not have feeling for Hugh, and openly admits them to Ross. When he returns from London, Ross asks if she fretted for Hugh, she says, no, "but perhaps a little for my husband." She readily admits to have felt a 'heartache' for Hugh. In London, when Ross is questioning her about Monk she says, "Are you serious in supposing … Because -because once something happened, because one I felt deeply about another man; …….
Years later Demelsa tells Clowance, "We have been together for a very long time, your father and me, and except for one dire event on his side, and one dire event on mine we still feel as much for each other, … as we have always felt. In our lives, and I'm serious now, we have had so much loving, so very much loving. It has not staled. It varies from year to year, but it keeps always to a constant pitch of - of being deeply and truly involved. And desirous."

Bernie wrote: "Ken wrote: "Bernie wrote: "Which Demelza are you refers to? One thing that has troubled me from the first was the way it was fashionable for men to openly court married women. In the book when Deme..."
First.... great post, but I'm going to take the other side of your Courting of Demelza post. Hugh went to the Navy at 14, and I think his sniffing around Demelza was more "horny sailor" than "London gentry."
I've read some of the Byron stuff before and understand London social circles were wife swapping clubs.
I also disagree that the tryst was conducted with the proper degree of discretion. There was the song D sang at Flamouth's party and tucked inside the thank you note that Ross could have read, was the poem that should have been destroyed. Demelza even remarked how dangerous it was.
There's no doubt in my mind that Hugh knew his actions were reprehensible. He even told Demelza after Seal Hole that he wouldn't stay to dinner because he'd be embarrassed it Ross were there.
Demelza's pulling at her heart strings and "the agony of divided loyalties," .... Really?... shouldn't it be "the agony of destroyed loyalties?" Demelza didn't admit she boned him to cover her own ass, and hid the poems too.... yes, I know she kept the poems to remind her how taken with her Hugh was, but she also hid them to protect herself.
What I dislike most about Demelza's tryst, was her inability to tell Ross he was always "first in her heart" even though she felt that way and felt something for Hugh. Her "he came into my life, and now it's over" was absolutely worthless as an explanation, and better left unsaid. That fueled Ross's angry tide coming in twice a day for years and kept him fighting the ghost. Demelza had to notice Ross's pain of not knowing where he actually stood in her heart, I wonder how much of her vague explanations were calculated?

Ken I believe you are confusing WG's and DH's Demelza. WG's D did not sing at Falmouth's party, and the thank you note was to cover his visit to the seals which has not yet shown up in DH's version. Yes, my reference to the courting cites Byron and London society, but clearly the same was going on in Cornwall as I previously made clear when the Banker tells Ross that he heard that D was a great hit at the ball, and men were making visits to see her. Also, there is a reference to a proposal for a wife swapping party, that Ross passes. Moreover, even after he knows that Hugh loves Demelsa, and she says that she does not know how she feels about him, but his love for her matters, he still thinks that it is just great that men love his wife, and she should go see him--- but remember to be a good girl. Cornwall was not so different from London.
Ken, I am hardly saying that Demelza was an innocent. She gave in to her passion, as she says "But it could only have ... [happened] if the impulses were already so strong within her that they seized on any excuse to have their way."
Many make the point that Demelza's should have told Ross everything, and that she loved him more than Hugh, etc. I completely disagree. In fact, when he comes back from London after the Monk affair, they talk about how they have dealt with issues in the past. Ross says, "Sometimes I think talking, explaining, creates as much misunderstanding as it clears away."
So here is what she says to Ross:

When D comes home after H dies. "‘Please hold me and never let me go. ‘Not till we die. Ross, I could not live without you. ... All I know is that I love you. I suppose that’s all that really matters.’ And Ross says, '‘It’s what matters to me.’" At this point what would you have had her say?

When R comes home after being gone for 8 months to London. He tells D that he has taken the time to "re-order his thoughts and his life." and asks if she has. Her rely is, "No, I made mine last September. There is no difference. There can be no difference – for me.’ ... Say if you wish that you want me to be a wife to you again. That I will be. But don’t – pretend." Ross finally says, "‘ I want you, but there’s anger and jealousy in it still, and they die hard. I can’t say more." Do you think it was then that she should have has a full discussion about Hugh, shown his the letters. Hugh was the past and they had to get on to the future, which they eventually did by living and loving.

I don’t feel your correct about Cornwall being similar to London society. They go to balls and dance with others in Cornwall, that is one of the purposes of going to a ball, mix with others in accepted and public fashion. The wife swap proposal wasn’t at a wife swapping party LOL. No wife swapping took place. Just a proposal from a dirty old man .
Seems to me that lady’s like Verity, Carolyn and Elizabeth were not subjected to such indecent, forward suggestions from men, but Demelza is. Even getting groped under the table by men. Makes you wonder why, doesn’t it?

I think the question of did Demezla love Hugh or just simply lust for him is a hard one to answer. Demelza herself says she just wasn't sure.
In TLC Clowance and Demelza talk about the difference between friendship and love in that discussion sounds like Demelza consider her feeling for Huge to be love. She said two men gave her that electrical charge that comes from love.

Harold wrote: "I think the question of did Demezla love Hugh or just simply lust for him is a hard one to answer. Demelza herself says she just wasn't sure.
In TLC Clowance and Demelza talk about the difference ..."

I know that I am splitting hairs, but Demelza never use the work love to describes what she feels for Hugh. In fact, there are very few places where she talks about him after his death. She does say as we have noted that she got an electric charge from two, presumable Ross and Hugh, but it is Clowance that is equating this to love. I think Demelzais acknowledging that there is an electric change you can get from some people--more than one, she tells Clowance , and when asked she says she has felt the charge from two, but never equates the spark to love. Given what she says other places I think she would equate it to "a terrible attraction."

In other places she say, "Hugh came ... into my heart, where before there had only ever been you;"Verity knew nothing of Hugh Armitage; she had never met him and therefore would be unable to understand or even guess at his terrible attraction;" "I felt deeply about another man, [Hugh]." Finally, this is what she say/thinks about him soon after their tryst: "The odd and slightly disconcerting thing was that she was not quite sure that she had anything to be cured of. She felt no less in love with Ross than before – perhaps, perversely, a little more so. She felt no different – or very little different – towards Hugh Armitage. She was taken with him, warmed by his love and returning some of it. The experience, the physical experience, if one could separate it even in one’s thoughts from the heart-stopping tension and sweet excitement of the day, had not in essence varied from what she had known before. She did not feel that she was becoming in any real way a light woman. She did not see it as a happening that was likely to recur. It was just a trifle disconcerting that she did not feel very much changed in any way as a result of it.

At the end of TAT Ross does use the word love to describe Demelza's feeling for Hugh , and she does not object to its use. Here is the exchange: "I want to talk to you, Demelza. What I’ve been thinking. Not long ago you lost someone you – loved. It – bites deep.’ ‘Yes,’ she said. ‘It bites deep." This is the closest I can find to Demelza actually saying she loved Hugh. Otherwise she reserves the word to describe her feeling for Ross.

Also, with that exception of that one passage, Ross does not acknowledge that Demelza loved Hugh, he says, "she was so emotionally involved [with Hugh;"Demelza had been unfaithful to him, ... in spirit, her thoughts, her emotions, her heart, deeply engaged with another man." He does ask her how she feels about Hugh, i.e., "‘Tell me what you feel about Hugh.’ ... ‘How can I say truthfully, when I am not sure myself?;" Ross does not acknowledge that Demelza loved Hugh when he talks with Dwight, ‘If by difficult times you mean Demelza’s passion for Lieutenant Armitage, then yes, I grant you, they were difficult. What do you do about a young man, a brave one, in many ways an admirable one, but sick – and as it turned out mortal sick – who attempts – and succeeds or fails, I know not – to make a cuckold of you? In Paris in TTS he acknowleges , "the stresses when Demelza became infatuated with Hugh Armitage," and later "Demelza’s defection, her infatuation with the young sailor-poet Hugh Armitage, her unfaithfulness in thought – and he suspected deed .

Harold, in a previous posting you made two claims that I don't think are right; (1) Demelza turned her lust for Hugh into a love affair in her mind when Hugh died, (2) she was going to cherish the memories. I think the only thing that might lead you to those two statements is that she kept the poems, but as I have said before, the poems meant something entirely different to her. They were not a sign of her love of Hugh, but a sign of his love for her, a miner's daughter, and her insecurity on that point appears over and over again in the book.

Bernie wrote: "Harold wrote: "I think the question of did Demezla love Hugh or just simply lust for him is a hard one to answer. Demelza herself says she just wasn't sure.
In TLC Clowance and Demelza talk about ..."
I have the same conclusions as you...... There was a definite reason WG reserved the word love to describe Demelza's emotions with Ross and never used it referring to Hugh. Demelza talks several times about Hugh's love for her. Reflecting back a year later she says, "Well, that was gone forever, and she didn't want it back, with it's pulling at her heartstrings, the agony of divided loyalties." That confirms to me she was not "In Love" with Hugh.
Even when her passion of infatuation was at it's peak and she gave him her body at Seal Hole, it was three months before he died. During that time she didn't once try to meet him alone. She did see him twice, but forced Ross to make the decision to visit sick Hugh..... That's not the way a woman "In love" would act. Especially Demelza, she would just tell Ross she was going. She made no attempt or request to attend his funeral.
I agree the reason she kept the poems was to remind her of his love for her, and how that warmed her. She didn't keep them because she returned that love.

Demelza after cheating with Hugh,had no intention of confessing to Ross and Ross had no clue. It was her reaction to Hughes death that finally clued Ross in that Demelza was having a affair. because you don't fall apart like that over a death unless your in love. Demelza knows this also and tactically admits it.

Harold wrote: "Demelza after cheating with Hugh,had no intention of confessing to Ross and Ross had no clue. It was her reaction to Hughes death that finally clued Ross in that Demelza was having a affair. becaus..."

Harold I presume you are referring to the book, The Four Swans, and if so you might consider these points because (1) Demelza never hides here growing relationship with Hugh from Ross, and (2) Ross very much had a "clue" about what was going on. It is true that Demelza did hide the poems that were in Hugh's letters from Ross, but Ross knew that he was writing to them and that he was in love with Demelza, And, yes she did not tell Ross that she had committed adultery with Hugh, but she did tell him she had spent that afternoon on the beach with him.
All through the affair Ross and Demelza speak about Hugh's growing love for her, and she never hides her attraction for him. Before Hugh goes back to the Navy they talk about her wanting to be two people, and Ross notes that she looks at Hugh the same way she looks at him. When she tells him that Hugh had visited and they went to see the seals, Ross asks about her feels for him, and she says she really does not know. Not a very reassuring answer for a husband to hear from his wife. When they discuss her going with Dwight and Caroline to see Hugh, he again asks about here feeling to him, and she again says she is not sure, but he knows that Hugh loves her, and asks if that matters, and she says, how could it not matter. Again not a the answer a husband would like to hear. The interesting thing is that each time he asks and each time he gets a not very reassuring answer he encourages her to go see Hugh.
He seems to like it that Hugh is attracted to her--even loves her -- but wants her not to go too far. He like her going just up to the line but wants her to go no further as proof that she really loves him. In fact, when he thinks of Hugh death his regret was that he would never have proof that she would choose him over Hugh because Hugh is dead. He says so in The Four Swans, and again in The Angry Tide, when she says that Hugh had gotten into her heart where there before had only been him, but it over. His concern was not that Hugh had come into her heart, but that it was over because he was dead.
I have always felt sorry for Demelza during and after this whole affair. She says over and over again to Ross and Hugh that she has everything she wants and is content in her marriage and family. She does not go looking for love or for Hugh and a number of times looks to Ross for support in helping her break this off, but each time the only support he gives her to to remind her that being chased is fine, but to remember not to be caught. In fact, that is one of the only things the WG and DH share. In DH's version, she says Hugh is not a dream but very real, and Ross says that he relies on her good judgment to remember that.
I said that I felt sorry for Demelza, and if you look through the Angry Tide there is not one word that she longed for Hugh. What she longed for was the close relationship with Ross, which Ross with holds because of the angry tide of jealiousy. What would have happened if Ross had put a stop to the whole affair early and sent Hugh on his way? Well, of course then we would not be talking abut this, we would have a very boring story. The beauty of WG's story is Demelza's love for Ross, and yet her attraction to Hugh and the consequence of Ross. Demelza and Hugh's behavior.
If You are right that Ross didn't have a clue it was only that he was so self assured that no matter what he saw, and not matter what Demelza said to him about how she felt, he could not imagine that she could feel anything for anyone else but him. (In fact, he says that when he suggest that a man can love more than one women, but a women could only love one man. I wish that WG had allowed Demelza to complete that conversation.)

Bernie wrote: "Harold wrote: "Demelza after cheating with Hugh,had no intention of confessing to Ross and Ross had no clue. It was her reaction to Hughes death that finally clued Ross in that Demelza was having a..."


Bernie, I agree with you that Winston should have written Demelza finishing the "loving two people" conversation. After Jeremy burst in Ross did go back to it that night, but Demelza said no more.
I know Winston did it to bother me, but after Hugh's death she doesn't talk about it at all, or very little. I think she liked Ross twisting in the breeze and wondering where he stood with her, then and later. This is what fueled the "angry tide"

Bernia says:

(1) Demelza never hides here growing relationship with Hugh from Ross, and (2) Ross very much had a "clue" about what was going on.

Always felt like she gave him just enough to make Ross believe she was telling all, which she wasn't. Even in the conversation about being two people she declares " not as a lover" which is the crux of the matter. She hides the fact that she lusts for Hugh and puts it as she touched by Hughes feelings for her, she likes him, doesn't want to hurt him. Would like to part some happiness to him....but not as a lover.
Don't really feel Ross reaction to this is believable as written by WG. This is not just a red flag but a four alarm red alert for a husband. The nature reaction would be to say screw Hugh, he's no longer welcomed to visit or approach his ( Ross family) ever again. Course this would paint him the jealous older husband I guess, but what the heck this is a four alarm situation.
Demelza could have and should have cut the whole situation off at the pass the moment Hugh makes it clear he wants to seduce her. No help needed.

Does anyone else wonder why Ross doesn’t just ask Demelza if she was unfaithful?
Be interesting to hear her response.

Harold wrote: "Does anyone else wonder why Ross doesn’t just ask Demelza if she was unfaithful?
Be interesting to hear her response."

Harold, Ross asks her several time what her feeling for Hugh were. He knew Demelza had been unfaithful in her mind, that's what mattered to Ross.
Asking her point blank if she f*cked him would force her to lie, I think Ross was protecting her from having to do that. I know that's weird by today's standards, but it bothered Ross more that she let him in her heart than her body.

Please take care with your language. Winston Graham wrote twelve novels without resorting to bad language. It's jarring to see it here. It devalues the conversation.

Harold wrote: "Does anyone else wonder why Ross doesn’t just ask Demelza if she was unfaithful?
Be interesting to hear her response."
I think he probably knew the answer but was afraid to hear it from her lips.

Harold wrote: "Bernia says:

(1) Demelza never hides here growing relationship with Hugh from Ross, and (2) Ross very much had a "clue" about what was going on.

Always felt like she gave him just enough to make ..."

I certainly agree with you that Ross's reactions to what Demelza tells him would have evoked a different response in me. That is why I reacted to your saying he did not have a clue. As I see it he was playing a very dangerous game that did not play out the way he expected.

I don't agree that Demelza was hiding her true feels from Ross. She also was playing a game that got out of hand, but when she is talking with Ross about her wishing to be two people, I don't think she sees this progressing to the point of adultery. Clearly she is drawn to this man from the start. At their first meeting WG says that Hugh "moved her strangely" and there was danger "not so much in the strength of the attack as in the sudden weakness of the defense." After Hugh's visit to give Demelza the flower and Hugh tells them of his theory of love, Ross says that Hugh lives in a dream, and Demelza says, "Yet, he isn't a dream." Ross asks, "Does he touch you, my love?" and she says, "Yes." Ross asks, "deeply?" and she says "A little His eyes are so dark and sad." Ross says, "They light up when they look at you," and Demelza says, "I know." To which Ross replies, "So long as your eyes don't light up when you look at him."

With this early exchange we have the themes that WG repeats over and over again. Demelza is taken with Hugh, Ross notes Hugh's love for Demelza and her response, but says it is ok as long as it does not go too far. He says that he will "rely on your wonderful common sense always to remember that." She leans against him and he says that he is there to support her, and she responds, that she had not bent over but "Just a small ... shaken."

Harold you say that when this plays out again she is lying to Ross when she says that she wants to comfort Hugh, but not be his lover. You may be right that deep down she knows that is what she really wants to be for after she finally gives in she thinks that the only thing that is not just an excuse is the fact that from the moments she first met Hugh there was his sheer physical attraction.

I don't think that Demelza is lying to Ross, even if she is deceiving herself. Time and again he says that she loves Ross, is happy in her position as his wife and with her family, and whats nothing more than to be his friend. But she is very susceptible to his protestations of his love for her. WG says, "Such a declaration is not something a woman may easily get out of her system, and Demelza particularly was not of the temperament to do so. She loved Ross no less and was no less contented with her house and family, no less able to pluck enjoyment like a wayside flower from simple things as life passed. But the words remained, often warming her heart, but sometimes ringing disconcertingly clear, as if they had been spoken only yesterday and needed an answer."

And again later Ross asks, 'I do not know how far your feelings have become involved.' Demelza stared soberly out of the window. ... 'I don't know myself, Ross, and that is the honest truth. I only know …' 'Yes?' 'His feelings for me.' 'And that matters?' 'It matters. How can it help but?"

Harold, what you see as her lying I see, as what she later describes as, a period of "agony," i.e., the "pulling at her heartstrings, the agony of divided loyalties." She never wavers in her love for Ross or her attraction for Hugh. When she finally gives in she see this as a one off, something that is not likely to happen again, and as Ken has pointed out she makes no move to again meet with or be alone with Hugh. What she does not really understand is that for Ross the red line was not physical but emotional, and that she had crossed that line way before the afternoon at the seal cave. Ross suspects but never knows or whats to know if they had sex. Her disloyalty was emotional and that was enough for him.

Harold, you asked why he did not confront her if she was unfaithful--meaning did she have sex with Hugh. For Ross there was no question she was unfaithful, emotionally unfaithful, but I think he hoped that there was a way back. If he knew for sure that she had been physically unfaithful, I suspect he thought that from that there might not be a way back, and that was something he could not stand. There is an old saying, "if you can't stand the answer, don't ask the question." I think that's the answer he could not stand, so he never asked the question. What had happened was hard enough.

Unfortunately, Screenwriter Debbie Horsfield has lost sight of her historical objectivity in attempting to modernize the 18th century concepts of acceptable male and female ascribed roles. The importance of stability in the gender differences between women and men, and the inviolability of the wedding vows which were paramount to the maintenance of the nuclear family. That’s not to say that infidelity wasn’t commonplace, because it was. But there were horrendous consequences for indiscretion. For example, if a woman was turned out of the marital house for adultery she could and many times would end up unemployable, poverty stricken, lose all property rights and her children. Several times throughout the Poldark saga, Demelza warns of “The marriage bond once undertaken, was indissoluble...” Certainly, the final scene in Season 3, departed from that exigency. As have some other larger important circumstances in the saga. Summarily, there is a lack of accountability in the adaptation between the Winston Graham text and the screen play.
Did the anguish of Hugh’s death creep up on Demelza, “unawares” or was it something even more rudimentary? Such as quilt? Such as satisfying a long held vengeance against Ross. Or the realization that the event of her adultery would no longer exist between “a nameless woman,” and “nameless man,” if Ross were to perceive the reality of it?
Recall that there were multiple events that transpired prior to Hugh’s death: The ‘pitiful’ announcement of Hugh’s onset blindness, leading to his discharge from the Navy. The seduction at Seal Hole Cave. The Confession by Ross to her regarding his encounter with Elizabeth at Sawle Churchyard. And her reaction to his explanation: that she could not discuss it further as she felt ‘rather alone.’
As for the cliff hanger in the final episode in season 3, that never happened. Demelza never took that walk of shame. The closest she ever came to a physical response to Hugh’s death; was when she returned from her visit to Caroline, after receiving the letter from Mrs. Gower announcing Armitage’s demise. That’s from Graham’s text and the 1970’s television series. Even then it was Ross’s reaction to the sight of her that produced his anger and jealously, coupled with the thought that she was grieving over Hugh. Not from any knowledge of her infidelity.
Ross was never made aware of Demelza’s adultery. She never confessed it to Ross, and as a result he had fits of jealously and unresolved anger. Even when Dwight asked him if everything had been ironed out between them, from the year before, he could not qualify an answer as to her fidelity. In fact, he said to Dwight that he was not sure if Hugh had made a “cuckhold” of him or not.
As much as I love the character of Demelza, in that she represents kindness and goodness, I do believe she “failed Ross.” According to Graham, she did not have the fortitude or resolve of her conviction to admit to Ross, one way or another, her adultery with Hugh or her love for Ross. As close a demonstration of love for Ross was their greeting kiss and their love making the night of his return after putting down the rebellion by the miners; three days after the Tuesday event with Hugh. Even then she was not convinced that he had not been sleeping with Elizabeth; which reinforces the notion of vengeance as part of the transgression.
I believe that she was infatuated and in lust with Hugh. I think she doubted that Ross could forget or forgive her for her breach. Any more than she had ever forgiven or forgotten Ross’s adultery with Elizabeth. And that if the truth was told, her life with the man she “Really, and Truly and Absolutely” loved, would be “laid to waste.”
Also she is not afraid of Ross’s gruff demeanor. This is illustrated in both TV series and the books. In fact, I’d conclude that the punch in the eye after Ross’s night with Elizabeth was evidence that Demelza only feared Ross’s retreat from her. I think that even Ms. Horsfield is in agreement on that score. Recall in season 2 when Ross finds out Demelza is about to leave him, she was not afraid to tell Ross she was taking Jeremy and returning to her father’s house. In Graham’s account Demelza feels she’s the bad apple. Because of the Werry House debacle and as such she’s leaving and will send for Jeremy later. In fact, her reason for wanting to run away from the marriage was the awareness that she had adulterated the bonds of their commitment. In today’s world a Demelza would just sneak out under cover of darkness and avoid such a conflict. Which is what would have happened if Ross hadn’t clarified his feelings regarding the difference between “ideal love” and “imperfect love” and that “Elizabeth will never again come between them.”

According to the text by Graham: in the past when she attempted to leave she was pretty easily convinced not to go. Such as the time when she asked Ross whether or not she should go or stay and Ross said: “Leave or stay, just as you wish.” Also, there was the Christmas quarrel with Ross, but the holiday was saved by Ross and a fermentation overflow. Which conspired to end her flight and bring their quarrel to a more Christmassy and loving close.

I did like the final scene in season 3. In the book, this scene is actually relatable to the death of Hugh Armitage. In both accounts, it is a tender moment, because it is prompted by sorrow, which is deeply felt by Demelza, and is acceptance that she cannot live without Ross. What I don’t like about the scene is the ‘walk of shame’ that Demelza never undertook. I see this as an unnecessary gimmick to park viewers in front of their TV’s for the upcoming season.

It’s obvious that Demelza suffers from cognitive dissonance regarding her adultery. The night of Ross’s return and subsequent love making she is unable to sleep and stands at the window trying to figure out her own motives for having a sexual encounter with Armitage. A plethora of excuses plague her, in which she finds no justification for her behavior. She is unable to tell Ross of her betrayal because her excuse for it is shattered when he tells her of his visit with Elizabeth at Sawle Churchyard.

Please forgive the typos, the run on paragraphs and any other typing sin I have committed. I have spent many days trying to make this blog work and just a few minutes about I was able to get an email verification. My intent was to reply to Harold, Ken and Bernie.

Val wrote: "Please forgive the typos, the run on paragraphs and any other typing sin I have committed. I have spent many days trying to make this blog work and just a few minutes about I was able to get an ema..."
Glad you got it working Val.... good post. I think we all agree DH has some fancy dance steps at the beginning of S4 to get the series back on track....
I can't believe she made me dislike Demelza last season.... I slipped gently into dislike that I didn't think possible in myself.
DH wrote Demelza as a bitchy nag of a wife in S3.

Bernie wrote: "I need help. "

One reason I love WG's writing is that he always throws in passages for which I am not sure what he is saying. I would appreciate some help in interpreting.

In the Angry Tide, when he first returns from London he has the long discussion with Demelza that ends with him saying, "You’re right in saying I’m a stranger. But I’m a stranger who knows every inch of your skin. We have to go on from there – in a sense to start again." He goes for an early morning swim and when he comes out of the water he thinks about the previous night. WG says, "he had resumed intercourse with his wife, ... it hadn’t quite turned out as expected. What would one have expected? In spite of his brave words, perhaps the casual. Or more likely the fiercely resentful, a claiming of a right long since in abeyance and nearly lost. But in the event it had never progressed beyond the tender. Somehow a much-derided emotion had got in the way and turned it all to kindness. Whatever happened now, however they met today, or tomorrow, in whatever form constraint or hurt or injury or resentment reared its head, he must remember that. As she would, he knew. If only one could altogether exorcise the ghosts."

He (WG) does not say anything further about how their relationship progresses until we are told, "He shared the summer with Demelza and the children; and sometimes the old companionate laughter broke through. There were abrasive moments – sudden sharp jagged rents in their composure that showed the dangers still latent, but nothing irritable, nothing petty. Ross sometimes wondered if there had ever been a couple who got less on each other’s nerves than they did. There might possibly be outright war – never skirmishing."

Bernie wrote: "Bernie wrote: "I need help. "

One reason I love WG's writing is that he always throws in passages for which I am not sure what he is saying. I would appreciate some help in interpreting.

In the ..."
Bernie, here's my take....... Ross only wants the one thing Demelza won't give him..... To know he was always first in her heart.
He was angry at her not for the possible sex (which I think he always knew happen after finding the poem), he was angry because she made an emotional connection and let Hugh in her heart.

I don't think Ross suffered the usually male insecurity of "was he better than me". He was worried he'd lost her love. That's why he talked of winning her back by fighting a shade".
I blame the extended estrangement on Demelza, because all she could say was "It's over"....... that didn't help anything, and actually made it worse for Ross to exorcise the ghost. I don't know if Demelza deliberately withheld telling Ross he always meant more to her than Hugh, but I can't believe she didn't know that's what he wanted to hear.

She had the perfect opportunity with the "room in the heart for two" discussion than Jeremy burst in on..... Ross brought it up again that night and explained how Elizabeth and she fit in his heart. Demelza says nothing about Hugh. I know there are several thoughts to herself about Ross's place in her heart, but she withholds them from him when he needs them the most, to make peace with the tryst and move on.

The paragraph ..... I think Ross thought they might have "angry sex".... he certainly was, but Demelza responded with tenderness.
The line that gives me trouble.."Somehow a much-derided emotion had got in the way and turned it all to kindness" I don't see how a "to ridicule, to scorn" emotion turns sex tender. What am I missing?

Demelza seems to be the "Queen of Compartmentalization" She certainly no help to her husband by saying it's over and not telling him "what's over". I know she always goes back to she doesn't know what her feeling are for Hugh, but she knows what they're NOT.

Bernie wrote: "Bernie wrote: "I need help. "

One reason I love WG's writing is that he always throws in passages for which I am not sure what he is saying. I would appreciate some help in interpreting.

In the ..."

When Ross makes that statement about being ‘a stranger that knows every inch of your skin,’ he says it almost apologetically. “A marriage without warmth, without trust – a trust that we’ve both betrayed; what good is that?” Ross can no longer trust his own feelings about Demelza. Or trust their love for each other because she has never defined for him her feelings about Hugh. He knows there was an emotional attachment, and a complex of desire. He wants her to love him as before, but he’s afraid that ultimately she does not. He’s caught in a perplexing milieu. He is “a stranger” in a strange land. Their collective confidence has been shaken and as a result, his world is no longer on terra firma. Thus, his conclusion, “We have to go on from there - in a sense to start again.” Starting from scratch!

The fact that their loving making, on the night of his return from London, did not become a passion consuming, all encompassing Roman candle, is testimony to their collective need for kindness, gentleness, and love! “...the much-derided emotion...” was not allowed, it could never be part of the initial reconciliation. There could only be “warmth and tenderness” or no chance of repair for Ross and Demelza would come to exist. It is the natural emotional flow between two people seeking reapproachment.

As for the early morning swim and the remembrance of his cleansing swim after his night with the woman Margret, that’s a nonissue. One of the problems in human dynamics is how can one ever know the locus of such comparisons. Certainly, the reasons for the swim were entirely different. Ross did not feel shame for his “resumed intercourse” with Demelza, he merely reflected on the total difference between the two encounters. Basically, Ross is happy that the two experiences did not equate.

As for the summer between Ross and Demelza, attitudes and situations became more or less normalized. All married couples, especially couples that have been together a long time, such as the Poldark’s, pick their fights wisely. And in doing so skirmishing is often times avoided. Sudden sharp lapses in composure are generally ignored. It’s just not good to go to bed mad and awake unforgiving. Keep in mind Ross and Demelza have a lot of repairing to do to save this love and make a happy life together. In the 18th century “the marriage bond once undertaken, was indissoluble...”

By the way Ken, excellent characterization, Demelza being the “Queen of Compartmentalization.” It was, in part, the crux of Ross’s dilemma and the method Demelza used being a miner’s daughter to becoming a ‘genteel woman.’

Val wrote: " is testimony to their collective need for kindness, gentleness, and love! “...the much-derided emotion...” was not allowed, it could never be part of the initial reconciliation.."

Val, I still need some help here with WG words. I just may be a little thick, but I don't know what "emotion" was "much-derided," or how that emotion turned the their laying together into an event that "never progressed beyond the tender" and "turned it all to kindness." All in a way that he knew Demelza would remember.

Bernie wrote: "Val wrote: " is testimony to their collective need for kindness, gentleness, and love! “...the much-derided emotion...” was not allowed, it could never be part of the initial reconciliation.."

Val..."

Foremost, I don’t think you’re “thick” at all. I didn’t realize how complex that statement was until you discussed it. When I first read it, I accepted it without evaluating the importance of that lone clause. So, here’s my understanding:

Ross’s “fiercely resentful” emotion that festered all the while he was in London, was the root of this “much-derided” emotional complex. He fails to enumerate all the other derisive elements in his initial “propinquity” (I never thought I could work that word into a narrative) with Demelza. Basically, because he does not define them as easily as he feels the resentment and contempt. Ross’s resentment over Demelza’s betrayal was the bane of his derision. He ‘expected’ it to be the driver in his reclaiming his sexual privileges with his wife. Countervailing the “much-derided” emotion was his love for her. He didn’t set out to be kind and tender as evidenced by his opening salvoes about fighting and/or competing with a “shade.” From there, to his various other distainful remarks about Armitage and Bodrugan, the select “harlots,” and the beautiful women of London. He could see the effect that his ridicule was having on the woman he loved. The fact that she responded with tears may have been, in the main, cathartic enough for Ross to relent. He almost, by accident told her that she was “more beautiful than all of them.” Blunting further derision. So much so that by the time they retired for the night, he sought only love and tenderness. To a great extent his “most-derided” emotion was greater than the singleton expressed by the author. It was a complex of emotions.

Val wrote: "Bernie wrote: "Val wrote: " is testimony to their collective need for kindness, gentleness, and love! “...the much-derided emotion...” was not allowed, it could never be part of the initial reconci..."

LMBO Val.... you actually used “propinquity”, you Demelza quoter.

I like you explanation of the emotional roller coaster Ross was riding that night. He was ruminating on this night for 9 mos. The more I read and discuss this section of TFS and TAT, I realize that Demelza wasn't being evasive when answering "It's over, Ross"..... It truly was over when he died. Demelza's mind must have a bunch of boxes to keep things separate.....

Val wrote: "Ross’s “fiercely resentful” emotion that festered all the while he was in London, was the root of this “much-derided” emotional complex.."

Val, I have a different take. WG writes, "Somehow a much-derided emotion had got in the way and turned it all to kindness." I think the "derided emotion" that got in the way and turned his sexual "claiming of a right long since in abeyance" to kindness and tenderness was his love for Demelza.

Throughout this whole affair the one thing that never changed was Demelza's love for Ross, but she is not sure of his love for her. She says before he returns from London that "she was no longer sure she wholly retained his love. "He was far away. And for too long had been far away. And here was the worm in the bud, the rot in the deeps of the heart." And their first encounter was certainly not reassuring.

When he returns the first thing he asks her, "‘Are you fretting for Hugh?" She then says, "‘No, Ross. But perhaps a little for my husband.’ ‘... But I hope all this time in London you have not been thinking I have been grieving for someone else.’ ‘No . . . No.’ ‘You don’t sound very certain.’ ‘No. What I have thought, ever since last September, is how difficult it is to fight a shade."

Never once did he say that he missed her or loved her. What he says is that he did not take another women while in London "‘only because you are more beautiful than all of them." He doesn't promise her love, or tenderness or kindness, all he can say is "I want you, I want you, but there’s anger and jealousy in it still, and they die hard. I can’t say more."

Well, Demelza is a good 18th century wife and says "if you want me to be a wife to you again. That I will be." They retire to the their bed, but things didn’t "quite turned out as expected. ... (The sex) never progressed beyond the tender." To Ross's surprise his love for her came through turning what could have been resentful sex—given not from love but obligation— into their mutual tenderness/kindness that touched him as he recalled the night and he knew touched her. He thinks, if only he could remember how much he loves her and exorcise the ghost of Hugh, if only he could control the angry tide of jealousy.

In thinking about their tender night together what comes to mind is the last scene from season 3. Does that work for you?