Never too Late to Read Classics discussion

Sir Gawain and the Green Knight is the suggested read for the theme Medieval or before 18th Century.

Medieval literature is a broad subject, encompassing essentially all written works available in Europe and beyond during the Middle Ages (that is, the one thousand years from the fall of the Western Roman Empire ca. AD 500 to the beginning of the Florentine Renaissance in the late 15th century). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieva...

The Classic is a late 14th-century Middle English chivalric romance. It is one of the best known Arthurian stories, with its plot combining two types of folklore motifs, the beheading game and the exchange of winnings. The Green Knight is interpreted by some as a representation of the Green Man of folklore and by others as an allusion to Christ. Written in stanzas of alliterative verse, each of which ends in a rhyming bob and wheel, it draws on Welsh, Irish, and English stories, as well as the French chivalric tradition. It is an important example of a chivalric romance, which typically involves a hero who goes on a quest which tests his prowess, and it remains popular to this day.

It describes how Sir Gawain, a knight of King Arthur's Round Table, accepts a challenge from a mysterious "Green Knight" who challenges any knight to strike him with his axe if he will take a return blow in a year and a day. Gawain accepts and beheads him with his blow, at which the Green Knight stands up, picks up his head, and reminds Gawain of the appointed time. In his struggles to keep his bargain, Gawain demonstrates chivalry and loyalty until his honour is called into question by a test involving Lady Bertilak, the lady of the Green Knight's castle. Short Story at 144 pages

Some before 18 Century Suggestions:

Beowulf by Unknown 975
The Canterbury Tales by Geoffrey Chaucer 1390
The Decameron by Giovanni Boccaccio 1353

At the Wikipedia link above there is a wide variety of listing for this time period including Theater and Poetry.

I've got this audio version from Audible. It's translated by Simon Armitage, and the narrator is very good. He also reads the original version at the end.

The Armitage translation is brilliant. That is what I read several years ago.

Simon Armitage is from the same region as the Gawain writer.

Lesle wrote: "Some other 18 Century Suggestions:

Robinson Crusoe by Daniel Defoe 1719
The History of Tom Jones, a Foundling by Henry Fielding 1749
[book:Mic..."

Sorry to be pedantic, Lesle - but are these 18th century books suitable? In Message 1 you said “before 18th century”. But you also said that Medieval refers to 5th to 15th century. My knowledge of history is rubbish so I am confused!

I'm just starting this and I've found many versions online. I don't have the book so I'm stuck with online pdfs. Is there a translation I should search for?

Trisha wrote: "Lesle wrote: "Some other 18 Century Suggestions:

Robinson Crusoe by Daniel Defoe 1719
The History of Tom Jones, a Foundling by Henry Fielding ..."

Nope your right! Iam glad you were being picky, actually. I searched for the wrong time frame. Let me work on that. Darn it!

The Faerie Queene by Edmund Spenser fits the pre 1700 time frame too.
In Germany, there is The Nibelungenlied as well, but it is so long.
So is The Faerie Queene.

Rosemarie wrote: "The Faerie Queene by Edmund Spenser fits the pre 1700 time frame too.
In Germany, there is The Nibelungenlied as well, but it is so long.
So is [book:The ..."

Long is good!

The Faerie Queene is indeed a great companion read for Gawain, although it is like 50x longer. 🙂

Last month i read Men of Iron by pyle. It seems a little later but its fits in with this theme.

The great English writer of C14 is Geoffrey Chaucer. Although many modern English versions of Canterbury Tales are available, the original text is much easier to read than Gawain is.

I just finished the complete Canterbury Tales in Middle English, using the excellent Penguin edition. I discovered that it helped me a lot to read it out loud.

I am reading the original Gawain, out loud, with excellent notes, and glossary, in the Penguin edition.
I have just finished the first Canto. The Green Knight is certainly unusual, to say the least.

Well done Patrick! You have made the spirit of Chaucer very happy. I did consider learning the Gawain dialect, but eventually decided it was just too difficult.

I think i would be scared if a green man with a green horse shows up at my dinner party.

shannon wrote: "I think i would be scared if a green man with a green horse shows up at my dinner party."

No disputing this point, even at that time.

I have finished the second canto. The year is almost up and Sir Gawain has not yet found the Green Chapel. He celebrates Christmas at a friendly knight's castle, who knows exactly where the Chapel is.
In three days Gawain is to challenge the Green Knight.

I don't know if the edition of my library is abridged, but it is in prose and it is very short. I started and finish it today. It is very interesting and amusing.

I liked the end, although I am not sure about the moral of this story. I will wait to say more to avoid give spoilers.

In Canto 3 the lord of his castle goes hunting. Meanwhile, the lady entertains Sir Gawain.

Re: I am not sure about the moral of this story: It is pre-Victorian - it may not HAVE a moral!

If any I would think it would be based off of Christian morality and knightly chivalry.

And learn to say "No"

I agree Lesle.

The fact that the lady of the castle was Morgan Le Fay, a powerful sorceress, explains a lot.

I was refering to his fault in maintain the oath to the king. Moral was just a figure of speech. To break a oath would not be considered a knighty feature. For me the explanation for it was too weak. It would be classified as pride, thus, not christian.

The code of chivalry was very strict about certain things and Gawain found himself in a difficult situation.

Rosemarie wrote: "The fact that the lady of the castle was Morgan Le Fay, a powerful sorceress, explains a lot."

Indeed. The writer was very far sighted, to anticipate Harry Potter! But at that time, magic was an accepted fact.

This was an interesting story. I would be surprised too if a man barged in on my dinner riding a horse. lol

I thought it was interesting that the green knight just let Gawain cut off his head with no real combat involved.

Supernatural knights, green or otherwise, can behave in unorthodox ways.

Also the blood spurting out after his head being cut off was a little gross. But his head was cut off.

Lol yeah a bit weird

Yes, the blood spurting is totally realistic. Although the mindset of that time was very different, the laws of biology were the same.

To find that defined in the read at that time is surprising!

The final books of the German Nibelungenlied are very, very bloody and violent, much more than this book.
The Nibelungenlied is also much longer than this book.

Rosemarie I have not heard of The Nibelungenlied is there an English version? I assume so. Title?

The title is the same. It means Song of the Nibelungs.

Oh okay Thanks!

I studied parts of it in University, but have reread it twice since then. The second time was the last time since the paperback version I was reading fell apart as I was reading it.
The German composer Richard Wagner was inspired by parts of the Nibelungenlied for the four operas called The Ring Cycle, which tell the story of Sigfried and the treasure of the Nibelungs, among other things.

Regarding length, Wagner's epic work gave new meaning to the word.

I second the Nibelungenlied!

Having read a commentary on the work, I declare my view as follows: I see it as about testing. Gawain is tested twice: for his bravery, against the Green Knight; and for his honour, by the lady of the castle. But whatever the intentions of the author, I find it an interesting and beguiling book.

Can anyone post a sample of the Armitage translation? I am reading the Tolkien translation. In spite of my Tolkien fandom, I am finding it very cheesy. That might be the source material, though.

Trust Tolkien to add some orcs.

Phil wrote: "Can anyone post a sample of the Armitage translation? I am reading the Tolkien translation. In spite of my Tolkien fandom, I am finding it very cheesy. That might be the source material, though."

Here is an free audio version of his translation. Voice is Sir Ian McKellen.

Mark wrote: "Trust Tolkien to add some orcs."

I was looking for them! He dropped in trolls, ogres, and wyrms, but no orcs.

Here is Armitage's comment on the Tolkien translation: "I read Tolkien's translation when I was in my mid-20s; not surprisingly for someone who had studied and decoded the original text, his is a highly faithful rendition. But I never really responded to the antique diction and syntax - it struck me at times as even older than the original."

Here is a portion of Armitage's translation:

'I could tell you the truth once you've taken the blow;
if you smite me smartly I could spell out the facts
of my house and home and my name, if it helps,
then you'll pay me a visit and vouch for our pact.
Or if I keep quiet you might cope much better,
loafing and lounging here, looking no further. But
you stall!

Now grasp that gruesome axe
and show your striking style.'
He answered, 'Since you ask,'
and touched the tempered steel.

Here's Tolkien's version of the same passage:

'If I tell thee the truth of it, when I have taken the knock,
and thou hast handily hit me, if in haste I announce then
my house and my home and mine own title,
then thou canst call and enquire and keep the agreement;
and if I waste not a word, thou'lt win better fortune,
for thou mayst linger in thy land and look no further-

but stay!
To thy grim tool now take heed, sir!
Let us try thy knocks today!'
'Gladly,' said he, 'Indeed, sir!'
and his axe he stroked in play.

This looks like a pretty clear case of Tolkien being more faithful and Armitage being more readable. Generally, Armitage's alliteration is less hokey than Tolkien's, and that's what I responded to. "Hast handily hit me" sounds cheesy, but "touched the tempered steel" has an evocative ring to it.

Yes, the ancient alliterative style seems alien to us now. But I am glad to see Armitage has preserved it. His version is much more alive. Each age gets the version it merits, or is cursed to have.

Is this the main discussion for this book? (Sorry)
I read it last year but browsed through it again for this discussion. It was good to read a poem, and a really old one, that had a bit of a plot. I kind of like looking at the GK's angle (as if there's no guise & thats what he is). Must be nice to be invincible, with all the time in the world to muse on your adversary sweating it out for a year...

Yes Emma, the villains are often more interesting than the heroes.