Sci-fi and Heroic Fantasy discussion

This is our discussion of the novel....

The Guns of Avalon by Roger Zelazny

The second book in the Chronicles of Amber series. See The First Chronicles of Amber discussion hub for more info on the series and pointers to discussion of its other novels.

...second....

An interesting continuation of the original Nine Princes in Amber, penned a couple of years later (in between he wrote Jack of Shadows, which we've previously discussed, and despite having "shadows" in the title is unrelated to the Amber stories. :)

As Corwin (using the name Corey again) shadowwalks from Amber following his escape in book 1, he chances upon someone vaguely familiar. We learn Corwin is the source of the King Arthur stories, which are apparently shadows cast by his version of Amber. He gambles that his emaciated and hirsute state will keep an old frienemy Ganelon from recognizing him.

Randy wrote: " Is the Ganelon character meant to be the same from history who supposedly was a traitor in the Matter of France? If so does that mean Corwin is supposed to have been Charlemagne?..."

I assume Ganelon is borrowed from the Carolingian stories. E.i., Corwin also seems to have been the original, and Charlemagne a shadow he cast through the shadowverse, just as he is the King Arthur original.

In fact, continuing that thought further, I think Zelazny's intent is that Arthur & Charlemagne are both shadows cast by the same Corwin (two different legends of national unifiers.) Corwin still carries "Excalibur", though he calls it Grayswandir.

BTW, I'm only 75 pages into the re-read.

(copied over from the other thread)

RE: Ganelon

Jim wrote: "I never thought to look into the name before. That's a really cool idea. I looked up the name on Wikipedia ..."

Yeah I looked it up in Wikipedia too. I thought the name was familiar but I couldn't remember from where. I always got the feeling Zelazny was trying to say that Corwin had played a part in some big moments in the history of our Earth so I was wondering if that's what he meant in this case. Lancelot's appearance made me think about it, although in that case I think Zelazny was trying to say that Lancelot was a figure that appeared in many Shadow Earths.

Personally, I think the "traveling through shadow" trick got old really fast in this book. Once I know how they do it, I don't need to have every single detail laid out for me every single time Corwin goes somewhere.

Randy wrote: "(copied over from the other thread)

RE: Ganelon

Jim wrote: "I never thought to look into the name before. That's a really cool idea. I looked up the name on Wikipedia ..."

Yeah I looked it up in..."

I looked up Ganelon as well as I was sure he someone who I should recognize, but I did not. Interesting use of mythology.

Kivrin wrote: "Personally, I think the "traveling through shadow" trick got old really fast in this book. Once I know how they do it, I don't need to have every single detail laid out for me every single time Cor..."

There were two sequences of "hell rides" that got rather tedious as they lasted a few pages each.

I'm another that wasn't familiar with historical Ganelon, though I was wondering while reading if he might be a someone in Arthurian legend or not. I'll have to read that wiki page. See, that's what having group reads are good for, people point out interesting things you might not otherwise bother to follow up on :)

I actually thought it kind of funny that there were shadow Corwins running around doing similar, but not quite, the same thing as him. Him being from Amber and being able to move between Shadows I'd expected he'd have only one true form. Does it mean he can run into his Shadow self? Or maybe they all "leave" their shadow worlds the same time he leaves he's in (i.e because he left Avalon a while back, all the "bad" Corwins in the other Avalons left too, so when he returns he can't find one still ruling?) Or because he's in the process of moving through Shadows it forces all the other Corwin's to move through Shadows too so they don't ever meet up in the same Shadow?

Or maybe I need to wait for a later book and find out he can run into his Shadow selves (what about a Corwin army to attack the Courts of Chaos?), we'll see!

I haven't quite finished this book (89% so very close!) and overall I'm enjoying it but finding it a lot slower than the first one, there doesn't seem to be as much action, more set-up. I didn't mind the hell-ride descriptions because they read almost like poetry. Overall, reading this felt like having a yarn with someone and them telling a tall tale, which you don't really believe but it makes such a good story and they tell it so well, that you just go along with it.

So, in the first part... Corwin doesn't want Ganelon to to recognize him because they didn't part on the best of terms. Not that Corwin needs to fear Ganelon, the latter being mere mortal, unless he wants to get a good night's sleep. He's already been using the name Corey with Lance. But then over drinks with Ganelon he starts telling tales about Corwin, including that he's still alive. And before he fights the goat-headed whatever-it-is, he shaves & puts on his old colors & crest, pretty much begging to be recognized.

Hah - you pretty much summarized to exactly where I've gotten in the book. Side note - my library only offered the whole ten book omnibus. Turns out this annoys me, and I've concluded I do not like omnibuses.

Rachel wrote: "Hah - you pretty much summarized to exactly where I've gotten in the book. Side note - my library only offered the whole ten book omnibus. Turns out this annoys me, and I've concluded I do not like..."

They are heavy, I have a 5 book omnibus and sometimes need a pillow on my lap to hold it. However, given that this 5 book omnibus has fewer pages that a single ASOIAF novel, I'm glad I read Martin books in paperback format :)

G33z3r wrote: "So, in the first part... Corwin doesn't want Ganelon to to recognize him because they didn't part on the best of terms. Not that Corwin needs to fear Ganelon, the latter being mere mortal, unless h..."

I love the ridiculousness of it. While generally the author explains Corwin's thought processes, there were a number of times that Corwin seemed to make giant leaps of logic based on information he understood, but wasn't explained to the reader. I found that confusing at times because the actions the characters took didn't always make sense. But generally I just went along for the ride and didn't question it too much.

Btw I've now finished and Dara is my favourite character so far - I think because she actually has a personality. And I did enjoy that ending, even though I felt like the action was all a little rushed after spending so much time setting up.

Cat wrote: "While generally the author explains Corwin's thought processes, there were a number of times that Corwin seemed to make giant leaps of logic based on information he understood, but wasn't explained to the reader...."

The other thing I noticed this go-round is that despite the 1st-person narration, Zelazny likes to introduce characters that Corwin knows, but not let us in on it. E.g., the wounded man on the side of the road "looked familiar", or I recognized the jaw of the man merging from the tent, but it's another dozen pages before he's named.

G33z3r wrote: "The other thing I noticed this go-round is that despite the 1st-person narration, Zelazny likes to introduce characters that Corwin knows, but not let us in on it...."

Yes, he's done that a few times. It feels a lot like the scenes in movies where two guys meet up and square off like they're going to fight, then say "come here, brother!" and hug each other while their companions look on in amazement.

Cat wrote: "Btw I've now finished and Dara is my favourite character so far - I think because she actually has a personality. And I did enjoy that ending, even though I felt like the action was all a little ru..."

I agree. The GREAT battle for Amber is over in a few pages after the whole book is supposedly building toward it.

G33z3r wrote: "Zelazny likes to introduce characters that Corwin knows, but not let us in on it."

Think that was to make the reader speculate. First, he's just some injured guy, then you realize he's probably some kind of knight, and Corwin is on his way to Avalon so we're of course talking Arthurian...but then I started going through possible knights or even Arthur himself. Maybe there are enough hints there to figure out which one it was but I needed his name to be revealed in the the end.

Kivrin wrote: "I agree. The GREAT battle for Amber is over in a few pages after the whole book is supposedly building toward it. "

I thought it was an interesting turn of event though, we think there will be a big fight but Corwin sort of wins by default, someone/thing else having fought his battle for him, and he just wanders in when it's nearly over. But then we find out that the *real* great battle for Amber won't be between the princes but against Corwin's own curse. Basically we're not at the end of the series yet, so can't have the BIG battle yet :)

I admit I found not a lot really happened in this book, it was worldbuilding and setting the scene for the rest of the books (i.e. introduce the villain and the black road, etc). Doesn't mean I didn't like it but it did have a bit of a filler feeling rather than plot progressing.

Cat wrote: "because the actions the characters took didn't always make sense "

That comment made me laugh. I guess if you're immortal and are able to manipulate the world around you to fit your desires, "making sense" would be rather boring after a few centuries :)

"Nobody steals books but your friends." I rather liked this Corwinism.

Andrea wrote: "I thought it was an interesting turn of event though, we think there will be a big fight but Corwin sort of wins by default, someone/thing else having fought his battle for him, and he just wanders in when it's nearly over...."

I found it interesting that on his "deathbed," Eric passes on useful info to Corwin about Oberon's Jewel of Judgement & Dworkin's notes and sends his "death curse" toward Amber's attackers rather than Corwin. Essentially, he does what's best for Amber. Corwin, on the other hand, had ignored pleas from his brothers to not attack Amber during the current "black road" crisis, and had previously spoken the curse that caused that crisis. One wonders if Corwin would act as well if the situation had been reversed. (I doubt it.)

Rachel wrote: "Hah - you pretty much summarized to exactly where I've gotten in the book. Side note - my library only offered the whole ten book omnibus. Turns out this annoys me, and I've concluded I do not like omnibuses"
You should read this sometime:
Makes bibles and dictionaries seem puny.

I usually like omnibuses but I think the 1-10 only comes in paperback, which will crack in half if you try to read it.
I love my 1-5 and 6-10 hardcovers.

G33z3r wrote: "I found it interesting that on his "deathbed," Eric passes on useful info to Corwin about Oberon's Jewel of Judgement & Dworkin's notes and sends his "death curse" toward Amber's attackers rather than Corwin. Essentially, he does what's best for Amber. Corwin, on the other hand, had ignored pleas from his brothers to not attack Amber during the current "black road" crisis, and had previously spoken the curse that caused that crisis. One wonders if Corwin would act as well if the situation had been reversed. (I doubt it.) ..."

But several years had passed between Corwin's curse and Eric's. I think Eric had learned the burden of ruling. He was no longer the sadistic older brother wanting the throne at all costs. And Corwin knows it's his own curse that created the Black Road so he believes (rightly or wrongly) that he must be the one to defeat it.

Kivrin wrote: "And Corwin knows it's his own curse that created the Black Road so he believes (rightly or wrongly) that he must be the one to defeat it. "

Ah, but before he deals with the curse, he still feels the need to take over Amber first. Instead of joining forces and supporting Eric (and making use of his skills, powers, etc) his intent was to knock 'em while they were down, and then worry about picking up the pieces. He was willing to risk Amber falling to his curse rather than work side by side with Eric. The more I analyze Corwin the less I like him :) I mean now and then he has nice, kind thoughts, I guess so the reader doesn't hate the main character, but it is just icing on a very selfish self-centered core.

You know, we don't get to see things from Eric's POV, maybe he wasn't such a bad guy? Sure, he's rather vindictive, burning out his brother's eyes and tossing him in prison for years instead of giving him a quick death (plus if he gave the protagonist a quick death the series would kinda end...) But just as Corwin feels that he'd be better for Amber than Eric would, maybe Eric felt the same about Corwin, that Amber would suffer under his brother's rule?

Though on the whole the other brothers seemed to confirm that Eric wasn't someone they really wanted on the throne either...but we only know this by what they say to Corwin, who knows if they were telling him the truth or were just saying what Corwin wanted to hear, just in case he came out on top.

We only get to see Eric when he's fighting Corwin, and again, give Corwin is our protagonist, that kind of forces the reader to put Eric as the villain.

Frankly, they all seem like villains... :)

Andrea wrote: " I mean now and then he has nice, kind thoughts, I guess so the reader doesn't hate the main character, but it is just icing on a very selfish self-centered core...."

Yes, but he's even cynical about those "nice, kind" thoughts himself. There is one point in this book where he's actually musing about whether he's doing a nice thing because it's a nice thing or because it suits his ultimate goal, and I got the impression it was the ultimate goal!

They are all villains, but they're a lot of fun to read about! :)

Cat wrote: "They are all villains, but they're a lot of fun to read about!"

No argument there, would be kind of boring if all the siblings got along!

I agree they're all somewhat villainous, but I can certainly understand Corwin not working with Eric. As far as Corwin knows at this point, Eric beat him in a fight & left him on our shadow Earth dying in the midst of the Black Death & then tried to kill him when he showed signs of getting his memory back. The only reason he didn't kill him after he & Bleys lost the bid for the throne was that it would be impolitic, so he burned out Corwin's eyes & locked him in a dungeon for 4 years in horrific conditions. He was starved, filthy, & only brought out to be the butt of jokes once a year. Who would could possibly expect him to work with Eric?

No, they'd hated each other for centuries & the recent injuries & indignities were too grievous for anyone to expect that.

Jim wrote: "I agree they're all somewhat villainous, but I can certainly understand Corwin not working with Eric. As far as Corwin knows at this point, Eric beat him in a fight & left him on our shadow Earth d..."

Exactly! Corwin has every reason to hate Eric!

So, what's with Lorraine? Why is she in the story? Does it make Corwin a seem better guy for avenging her? (All 2 sentences of it?)

I'm really not sure, partially I felt like she was there to set up as a contrast to Dara. I also felt she was there to try and show Corwin's humanity and it's flaws - there were a few comments about how similar they were. I don't think her purpose was related to the vengeance aspect- it was glossed over so quickly, I think it was compare and contrast with Corwin and Lorraine, and later Lorraine and Dara

I keep wanting to respond to some of the comments I've read here, but then I realize my responses are based on spoilers from later in the series. Perhaps it wouldnt be too spoiler-ish at this point to say everything is not as it seems (although some of it *is* as it seems)?

I think Lorraine is a nod or allusion to another fantasy or fairy tale lost love story, but I can't recall what it is. I meant to look it up last night in either The Road to Amber or Complete Amber Sourcebook. The latter is a bit dubious, but would probably be the quickest. I'll try to remember tonight if I have time. I didn't even get in to eat dinner until 8pm, though. Too much to do outside this time of year.

The name does sound familiar but maybe that's just because it's a region in France and not because I came across it in a fairy tale.

I'm not finding anything about Lorraine. The 'Source Book' just has a synopsis of her part in this novel, no explanations. Looking through the 'Road to Amber', I can't find anything. I might well be wrong or it could be tucked away in something obscure I read one time. My mind is a junkyard. This is bugging me so if it is real, I'll probably remember it while I'm in the shower or in the middle of the night. Even odds I'll remember it by the time I get to the computer.
;)

G33z3r wrote: "So, what's with Lorraine? Why is she in the story? Does it make Corwin a seem better guy for avenging her? (All 2 sentences of it?)"

I think he discusses this briefly in Chapter 8. If I recall, he contrasts his mostly physical relationship with Lorraine with the growing feelings he's having towards Dara.

As far as why the land is also named Lorraine, it may in fact be due to the region in France. Zelazny said he liked to write about the places he traveled to "for tax purposes." Read more here: https://www.tor.com/2016/06/09/a-few-...

Interesting article, Randy. I notice it's by Kurlik who wrote the 'Source Book'.

Jim wrote: "Interesting article, Randy. I notice it's by Kurlik who wrote the 'Source Book'."

Yes it is. There's a series of eight articles about Zelazny at Tor.com by the same guy and you can find them all by clicking on Kurlik's name at the top of the article. They are pretty interesting so far - I've read about half of them.

I found the out of print Sourcebook online at a used bookstore for $9 when it seems like most copies are fetching $40 or more, so of course I ordered it. I haven't received the book yet though, so I hope the seller isn't trying to back out.

Got my copy of Complete Amber Sourcebook today! It's like an encyclopedia of Amber with entries from Amber to Zhind. I looked up Lorraine, and the girl and the country each have their own entry. Neither one explains why they both have the same name however. Also, the Sourcebook doesn't contain any information from behind the scenes of Zelazny's writing, which would have been interesting.

Andrea wrote: "The more I analyze Corwin the less I like him :) I mean now and then he has nice, kind thoughts, I guess so the reader doesn't hate the main character, but it is just icing on a very selfish self-centered core."
It has to do with the whole Many Worlds Theory. Like Rick from Rick and Morty, if you knew that no matter what you do, if you save somebody they still die in infinite worlds or you can just go to one of the infinite worlds where they're still alive, things just stop mattering.

Book Nerd wrote: "f you save somebody they still die in infinite worlds ."

And a more depresing way to look at it, if you kill someone in the infinite worlds, there are still a bunch of copies of that person still wandering around so does it matter? And it doesn't help if you're immortal and you've seen everything come and go before.