Teens Interceding for Orphans (TIO) discussion

Most (if not all of you) read my Monday post about Ben Dillow and the adopted kids in the DR Congo. That same day, I made the following tweet.

As thousands morn actor #RobinWilliams I can't help but wish just as many would morn #BenDillow. @BEBCampaign http://ow.ly/Ad0lM

Two days later I got this rather scathing reply

@LeahEGood Because #BenZillow was #trafficked? Because #selfish #adopters paid $35k for him? Not caring he likely HAD a family?!?

What do you think about this? I'd love to dialogue on this topic. Try not to reply with a knee jerk reaction. Give it some thought. Maybe even do a little research if you've never heard the opposing viewpoint before.

I can't wait to hear your thoughts. If you had to reply to this tweeter (I haven't, by the way. I'm still debating whether to respond or let the fire burn out) what would you say?

I would delete his/her comment and not get involved in an exchange with this person. He/she is not looking to be persuaded and/or enlightened on the situation. Which makes me sad.

I really, honestly wouldn't know how to respond to this person upon his/her comment. I would probably delete the comment and not be involved with this person anymore.

I don't know how to reply to this commenter, honestly. It makes me sad to what our world is turning into today. :(

I can't delete the comment without reporting it to twitter, and I honestly don't think it's a big enough deal to do that. I'm not even upset at this person for the way the replied. (It's not someone I know or ever heard from before.)

The thing is, I don't agree with this person's view point (or with the way she expressed it), but her perspective is not unique, and aspects of it are understandable.

The world of adoption isn't clear cut and people make mistakes. There has been a recent trend of disrupted adoptions (meaning families bringing kids to the US and the adoption not working out and the kids getting passed on to another family). There are also ethical "issues" that can be considered.

For example, after getting this tweet, I emailed an adoptive mom with the following...

Now, I know "haters gonna hate," and this isn't the first time I've had someone respond to something this way. However, it's a concept I wrestle with, and while I'm still working on solidly forming my opinion, I'd love to hear yours. Where are the ethical lines concerning adopting children who have biological family? How does it work (should it work?) when kids are in orphanages because their parents are poverty stricken but might still want them?

It doesn't seem unethical to me to adopt children who are otherwise going to grow up in an orphanage. Yet I can sort of understand how people get their hackles up about adopting kids who are separated from their families because of poverty.

What do you think of the subject in light of these questions?

(This is a hard, complicated issue. I don't have an answer. I'm just looking for a conversation. ;) )

I think it's true that there is a problem with adopting kids that already have a family, already have a culture, etc. but it's also just a reality that there are kids whose parents sent them to an orphanage in hopes of giving them a better life, and oftentimes there's no way to know that's what happened. Therefore it's not really the adopter's fault.

Now, picking the adoption group/representative/agent (the correct term for it is slipping my mind...) is the adopter's responsibility and by all means, they need to do their research and try their hardest to avoid groups that are dealing with trafficked children! But that's something different than the kid already having a family but the parents making the admittedly sad and not-so-great choice to give the kid to an orphanage, then the child being adopted. That's a whole other issue.

I'm not even sure I'm making sense now...but there's my thoughts. I'm not sure how I'd respond, there.

Amanda, that's pretty much my thoughts as well. (I'm not really asking for a literal response to that tweet. It was just a conversation starter.)

People who have issues with international adoption often complain that adopters ignore the adoption need within our own borders. However, they seem to overlook the fact that the majority of kids waiting to be adopted in the states have biological families. It's more likely that a domestically adopted child has surviving biological family than an internationally adopted child.

There are around 16.2 million orphans who have lost both parents. And their are millions more who have been abandoned, relinquished, or even trafficked by their biological parents.

Is the price tag attached to international adoption an issue? Maybe. But it doesn't make sense to me when people blame adoptive parents for paying. It's not their choice or fault. Paying a lot of money doesn't make it trafficking.

Those are some of my thoughts. I'll be interested to see what you guys think of them.

I have a question about those who think we need to focus on orphans in our own country; are they doing any adopting themselves?
Another thought is sometimes, orphans in other countries live in far, far worse conditions than many in the USA. I'm not saying we shouldn't adopt from our country, it's just those who are so upset about international adoption vs. domestic adoptions seem to overlook that aspect. Or is this just my perspective?

I'm not sure about that, but I don't think so. Some of the skeptics were adopted themselves, though, which adds an interesting dynamic.

To be perfectly honest, Madison, I'm not sure what exactly drives people to get up-in-arms about international adoption. It's something I'd like to look into more, because their are certainly plenty of people who are invested in that opinion. In fact, there's a whole book, The Child Catchers: Rescue, Trafficking, and the New Gospel of Adoption, dedicated to explaining how bad the evangelical Christian push for adoption is. Crazy, right?

That's true, Madison. There are plenty of kids in the US that need adopting, but also a ton of them are in foster care temporarily and the need seems to be greater for that here. And I think you're right about the conditions in other countries. Of course there are some nasty situations here that leave children in need of adoption and of course people from our country should adopt them, but that doesn't mean no one here should adopt from another country.

So yeah, I agree. :)

Wow, Leah. That is crazy! Have you read it? If so, do they provide another, better way for us to help those people? I can't tell just from the title, but was it written by Christians? If it is, what do they have to say about what the Bible says about adoption and orphans? It really is so crazy...

Exactly, Amanda! As Americans, we are SO blessed and actually have the abilities and resources to actually adopt and take care of children not only here, but in other countries.

I haven't read it yet, but it's on my to-read list. I checked it out from the library once, but I was very busy (and the text is oppressively liberal) so I didn't make it past the first chapter. But I do plan on reading the whole thing at some point.

I'm so with you guys on the topic of domestic vs. international foster care/orphan care/adoption. Recently I read somewhere (I think in an orphan care book, but I can't remember which one) something that really made a lot of sense to me.

The author pointed out that people make a big stink about adopting within racial or national borders. But the author pointed out that "caring for our own first" really isn't a Christian perspective. The New Testament says that there are "neither jew nor greek, bond nor free, male nor female (Galatians 3:28)." The whole domestic versus international thing should not be that big of a deal to Christians. Amen or do you have a different perspective?

Oh, no, "Amen"! ;) People make a big deal out of a lot of things these days, and it's really kind of sad within the church. It's almost like so many are just looking for something to argue about. :(

The Bible commands us to care for the least of these; whether they be in our own country, or somewhere else. If God calls you to adopt from a specific place, you should do it! In my opinion, those who 'make a big stink about adopting within racial or national boarders' aren't thinking about those facts.

The people making the big stink may or may not be Christians. So the racial/national thing might make a difference to them.

Here's why this is important to think about. Activists with opinions like those expressed in The Child Catchers or the tweet I received are effectively shutting international adoption down at an alarming rate. International adoptions have declined 60% in the past 10 years according to Both Ends Burning.

People subscribing to the "anti-international adoption" viewpoint point to things like article 8 in the UN Convention on the Rights of a Child which says a child has the right to "preserve his or her identity, including nationality, name and family relations as recognized by law without unlawful interference." They use this clause to say that adoption rips a child away from his nationality, family, and often name and therefore violates the rights that child has. (They conveniently ignore the fact that adoption is not "unlawful interference" until they make it so.)

In any case, this isn't just a case of, "we're Christians and we know the truth, so we can just ignore them." These people really believe what they're preaching, and they're taking action on it. It's something adoption advocates need to know about, think about, form opinions about, wrestle with, and take action on.

At least, that's my opinion!

Oh, ok. Wow. I know several kids who have been internationally adopted and all of their parents celebrate their children's culture with them one way or another. Whether it be by taking them to the Chinese Food Markets or getting traditional outfits. One of the little girls has hands that are not formed correctly; I bet she is very grateful she was 'taken from her culture'. In fact, I bet when they grow up a little more, they will ALL be grateful they were 'ripped away'.
These people don't seem to care or acknowledge the horrors of the conditions orphans live in around the world. The Stuck trailer is running through my mind.
I hope to become more informed on this and find ways to fight against it!

Adopted kids grow up to have all sorts of different opinions of adoption and "takes" on their adoption experience. That's something else I'd like to do more research on. Adult adoptees opinions of adoption.

Have you seen Stuck, Madison, or just watched the trailer on the blog?

That's true, I'm really not knowledgeable on this subject, so I can't say much about it.

I've only watched the trailer :/ I really, really want to watch the actual thing. I've been asking my mom, but we haven't been able to yet.

Hopefully the results are above average among Christian adoptees. Adoption starts from a hard place though, so (logically) there are going to be some families and adoptees who are really negative about the experience.

Stuck isn't a Christian documentary, but I really learned a lot from it. I should see if I could set up a movie night for blog followers. Wonder how that would work... :P

Yes, I know there have to be some people out there with negative opinions based on personal experience.

Oh, it isn't Christian? I thought it was! That would be cool! :)

Sooo ... I got The Child Catchers out from the library yesterday. Here are two quotes.

...I am a secular, feminist journalist who covers religion and reproductive rights.

and

Not long after came another message, asking me whether I thought it would be wrong "to attempt to talk a woman out of an abortion and ask her to let me adopt the child instead?" I hadn't thought about it much before, but when Sharon asked the question, I realized I did think it was wrong.

This is gonna be a doozie. And I haven't made it out of the prologue yet.

So, what do you think? Right, wrong, or neutral to talk a woman out of an abortion with the intention to adopt the baby?

Oh no...that's all just in the prologue? Wow...

Well, as a Christian, I believe you should do everything you can to help save the life of the precious little person inside. But, we cannot overlook the mom in this process. I think you should lovingly minister to her and talk to her about not having an abortion and adopting the baby instead. You should offer to help as much as you can (by helping take care of pregnancy related issues and expenses and even helping her talk to friends or family members who have issues with the whole thing). If you do something like this, I do not see how it can be 'wrong'. But, that's just my two-cents.

Yup. It's going to be a tough read. Thought provoking, though. I hope I can make it through the whole thing before it's due.

And, yes. I agree with you. I'd go a step further and say that if it's safe for the baby, every effort should be made to encourage a mother (and father!) to keep the baby.

Some people would disagree and say that if the mom planned to abort anyway and isn't a Christian, it would be better to adopt the child and raise it in a Christian family. Maybe they're right. But no one would think of taking a 6 year old from his or her perfectly capable mother to raise in a Christian home, so I don't really see the difference.

Keeping biological families together should always be a priority, in my humble opinion. But I don't think it is ever wrong to push for adoption in order to save a life.

Our motivation is to save the lives of babies, not to put them in Christian homes. If they ended up in Christian homes, that would be great! But it shouldn't be our number one focus.

I know a family who adopts nationally. They have four kids, 2 adopted (really more like rescued) out of bad situations. They have a little boy and girl who came from the same parents and they really fought to adopt the little girl (it was really cool actually, I got to help be a apart of that on my 13th birthday by letting the mom and the little girl stay in our house when she was in trouble) and after a long struggle, they finally got to adopt her. They really wanted to keep the siblings together. The situation was really bad, so it was perfectly alright for them to be fighting to adopt her. The little girl had an attachment disorder and had even been locked in a closet. It was so sad.

Whoops, I should have said a family who adopts domestically!

I used to desperately want to adopt internationally. Now, I feel much more reserved about it. Not that it's wrong, but I think it requires a lot more thought and research than most typical adoptive parents actually put into it.

I'm a foster care supporter. One of the things that is HUGE in foster care is the idea that reunification with the biological parents is always the goal, if at all possible. "Neglect" often is a result of poverty. So to keep a family together, a child may be removed temporarily while the parents are offered much help in changing their situation and can get to a point where they can care for their own, once again.

If this is what I believe is right for US children, why would something else be better for children of other countries? What could make me think that it is better for me to raise someone's child for them, simply because I have the financial resources, and they currently don't? Pride. Because when it comes down to it, if I have the financial resources for international adoption (the cost of which is tremendous), then I have the financial resources to assist their natural parents in providing for their own.

This is a biblical teaching. Parents are commanded to provide for their families and teach their children. In the verses about widows, only widows who don't have family were able to receive assistance from the church, because families were expected to care for their own.

I would highly suggest reading the book "When Helping Hurts". Although it's not specifically about international adoption, a lot of the principles can be applied, to help us avoid paternalism in adoption situations.

Just to reiterate, I don't believe that international adoption is wrong at all. I simply think a lot of Christians who are pro-adoption are thinking more of the warm fuzzies that come from "rescuing" a child than from thinking of what is truly best for that child and their family, and it is evidenced by the fact that not enough research is done on each child's particular situation.

Adoption is a wonderful thing, but I believe that if we truly loved these children, we would want what is best for them, and often, that will involve being reunited with biological family, or fostered/adopted by a family in their native country. Being removed from your country, culture, tongue is no small deal, and it's much easier to pretend we understand when we're not the ones doing it. (This is actually one reason I respect Katie Davis so much. She has adopted 13 children, but she literally moved to Uganda, learned their language, learned their culture.)

Sorry this was so long!

Wow! Thank you so much for your thoughts, Rachel. You've obviously given this topic a lot of thought. I agree with you on pretty much everything. Especially your comment about Katie Davis. I might not personally do what she has done as a single woman, but her dedication is admirable. My brother and I have had several conversations wishing more people were willing to explore the idea of "going there" instead of "bringing here."

I believe the are some cases where it is ethical for children with living (loving) to be adopted (internationally even). But reunification is often the best step.

There is so much to think about! And it's one of the reasons the orphan care discussion should never be limited to adoption.

I'm going to be honest and say that I'm not quite sure what to think about your comment, Rachel. I've really never been introduced to these ideas before, EVER and I've had a heart for orphans for as long as I can remember! But I definitely want to look into what you were saying and think through them. :) Though I will add, that I've always wanted to 'go there' and care for orphans.

Amanda wrote: "I think it's true that there is a problem with adopting kids that already have a family, already have a culture, etc. but it's also just a reality that there are kids whose parents sent them to an ..."

I agree with you! That's definitely my viewpoint on this... although it's a hard discussion and needs a lot of thought! :)

I agree that there are certainly cases where a child can be ethically adopted even though they have biological family still living. We do live in a fallen world, and so there are many reasons this situation would arise. But of course, there is still room for improvement where the adoption process (and orphan care in general) is concerned.

Madison - Have you ever read "Revolution in World Missions" by K.P. Yohannan? He's the founder of Gospel for Asia, and in this book, he makes a case for financially supporting native missionaries, rather then sending foreign missionaries. I feel like this argument has a lot of similarities to the domestic/international adoption discussion. I don't agree with him 100%, but at the very least, the book is thought-provoking.

As I've said before, I don't believe international adoption is wrong (and I don't believe sending foreign missionaries is wrong!), but since all of has have bothered to participate in this discussion :), I think we can probably all agree that it would be wise of us to open our ears and be willing to strive to do adoption better, more wisely (and same with missions), even if we may disagree on what "better, more wisely" looks like, specifically.

Thankfully, we serve a God who is infinitely powerful and loving, and works out everything for His own glory! He is so incredibly gracious, and is more than able and willing to redeem the mistakes we sometimes make. That's so reassuring to me when I feel overwhelmed by everyone's opinions and am wondering if what I'm doing is the right thing.

Proverbs 3:5-6 is one of those verses that applies to literally everything in life, and orphan care is no exception: Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to Him, and He will make your paths straight.

I have never read that book, but the idea of supporting/training native missions is not a new concept to me. :) I absolutely agree with everything you said! Your 4h paragraph captures exactly how I feel! I've just really never heard of a lot of what you said before, so I didn't know what to think about it. :)

I hope I didn't sound rude in my last comment, if so, please forgive me, that was not my intention at all!

Nope, you didn't sound rude at all! :)

I'd also like to add that it's okay to feel uncertain (or even *not okay*) with comments like Rachel made, Madison. (No offense, Rachel! ;) Bear with me.)

Having a heart for orphans is a wonderful, Biblical thing. As Rachel said, she used to desperately want to internationally adopt. And I still hope to someday.

When I first started actually learning about orphan care and adoption (not just having a heart for it, but really trying to become *educated* about it), my hackles went up any time any one said *anything* negative about any form of adoption. And I still think that is okay as long as we're polite about it.

As Rachel has pointed out, though, if we truly care for orphans, we should be willing to open our minds and hearts to searching out what is best for them. There's no one-size-fits-all answer. Not for how we should approach orphan care and not for what is best for each individual orphan.

All that to say that I totally understand your feeling of not knowing what to think of Rachel's comment. I've been there before. Probably Rachel has too. And that's the fun thing about discussion. We can introduce each other to knew ideas and examine them together. ;)

Thank you so much for that, Leah! :) It's easy for people, especially in an electronic format to get upset when people disagree, but you guys have done a good job at being gracious, which I really appreciate.

Yes, I desire to know what is truly going to be the best for orphans, and basically up into this point I thought it would just be to adopt them etc. I definitely need to do some real, deep, 'hackles down' thinking about all the new ideas that I'm being presented with! ;) I love how in the short time I've been apart of this group, I've been learning a lot just though the comment section! :D

I want to thank all of you for keeping this conversation God-honoring and educational. That's not something you'll easily find in other groups or forums when people don't have exactly the same opinion (or don't clearly recognize what others were trying to say!). :) That's inspiring to me. I really appreciate it!

I'm not super educated on the topic of international adoption, but I would love to learn more. Your posts, Rachel, have really been some "food for thought," and have helped me to go a bit deeper than the surface! I had never thought much about the pros and cons to international adoption. It's always seemed like an edgy topic to me, as the loudest people on the subject take one extreme opinion or the other, and then criticize what they don't agree with.

I think my take away from reading all of this is that there is no perfect, clear answer that fits every situation. It really depends on a lot of factors, and I think a lot of people interested in adoption don't realize that. I lean a little more in favor of international adoption, but I realize that it's definitely not always the best way to go.

:D This is a thought-provoking discussion!

For sure, there is no one solution to any problem. Orphan care is an incredibly complex problem, intermingled with myriad other problems, and that's one reason why it deserves so much attention and research before we just start jumping on various bandwagons (on either side of the argument), which is so common and easy to do at times.

I think the most important thing we can do when weighing all the various aspects of a problem is simply to ask God for wisdom.

Proverbs 3:13 "Blessed is the one who finds wisdom. Blessed is the one who gains understanding."

James 1:5 "If any of you need wisdom, ask God for it. He will give it to you. God gives freely to everyone. He doesn't find fault."

And we should be asking for wisdom for others, too!

Colossians 1:9-10 "That's why we have not stopped praying for you. We have been praying for you since the day we heard about you. We have been asking God to fill you with the knowledge of what He wants. We pray that He will give you spiritual wisdom and understanding. We pray that you will lead a life that is worthy of the Lord. We pray that you will please Him in every way. So we want you to bear fruit in every good thing you do. We want you to grow to know God better."

Wisdom in a multitude of counselors. So true. Though finding trustworthy Christians with dependable counsel can be tricky.

And I'd like to second what several of you have said about being grateful for this discussion staying so loving and civil. As moderator of this group I am incredibly thankful for that!

I'm also loving the discussion going on. This is really my goal with TIO. To give people ways to get involved and help them learn about the issues instead of just jumping on the bandwagon without knowing the reasons why.

Thank you all for keeping this conversation going, and being so enthusiastic and energetic about it. It makes me happy every time I see a new comment in this group.