Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Chapter V
Is this meant to be a mature thought, or just a conceited one:

And her life will perhaps be the richer, for holding now within it the memory of what came, but could not stay.

Chapter VI
Anodos meets Sir Percival in his rusty armor and is warned again about the maiden of the Alder-tree. He vows not to fall victim to her beauty, which almost guarantees he will, and does.

Chapter VII
Anodos wonders at the following question: How can beauty and ugliness dwell so near?

Why does the farmer not see the creatures of fairyland? Why does Andos stop believing in fairyland and believe again when in the presence of the woman and her daughter? And what is up with the ill-looking son who's laugh is polluted with a sneer?

Chapter VIII
What is the significance of the Goethe quote for this chapter, I am a part of the part, which at first was the whole.?

His private thoughts seem to indicate that he is starting to grow up a little,

I found cheerfulness to be like life itself—not to be created by any argument. Afterwards I learned, that the best way to manage some kinds of painful thoughts, is to dare them to do their worst; to let them lie and gnaw at your heart till they are tired; and you find you still have a residue of life they cannot kill.

It sounds like an attitude Nietzsche would approve of.

Why does the farmer's son led Anodos to the Ogre instead of around her? What does being found and followed by his shadow signify? Is it his dark side, like the Mr. Hyde to his Dr. Jekyll?

David wrote: "Chapter VIII...His private thoughts seem to indicate that he is starting to grow up a little..."

Anados already seems to have experienced some transformation since entering fairy land. He eats the nuts and fruits of fairy land and begins to understand the language of animals. He admits he wasn’t much of a singer in the past, but when he enters the cave and finds the marble lady asleep, he manages to find his voice and sing her awake. He has also become more sensitive to the sights, sounds, and smells of nature.

But he’s still got a lot of growing up to do. He’s an idiot to chase after the marble lady even though he has been warned of the danger of following a beautiful woman. He berates himself when he realizes his mistake and wanders aimlessly until he gets to the old woman’s hut.

Cphe wrote: "Chapter VII

Again it appears that only the female can see what is around them/before them.

I suspect that it is only female children as well or perhaps male children do initially but then they gr..."

I think there is something going on with gender, but I’m not quite sure what yet. I think it is interesting that the guides he encounters, the ones who are in tune with fairy land, and the ones who lure him to danger are all female. The exception is the boy who lures him to the ogre’s house.

Maybe it’s as Cphe suggests—we are all born with an ability to recognize fairy land, i.e. the spirits that animate nature, but as we age, men seem to lose that ability whereas women are able to retain it.

I was struck by these words the old woman says and his response:

“Because I have heard, that, for those who enter Fairy Land, there is no way of going back. They must go on, and go through it. How, I do not in the least know.”
“That is quite the impression on my own mind. Something compels me to go on, as if my only path was onward, but I feel less inclined this morning to continue my adventures.”

I guess this is another way of saying that once we have embarked on a journey, there is no going back. We have to see it through to the end. The path we follow and the outcome may be unknown to ourselves and to others. All we know is we have to keep going until we reach the end of the journey.

I like that :)

David wrote: "What does being found and followed by his shadow signify? Is it his dark side, like the Mr. Hyde to his Dr. Jekyll?.."

I have no idea. It may be too soon to tell. We might have to see what--if anything--his shadow does or if it plays any role in his journey.

Is the marble lady and ideal? does she represent "the" ideal, an ideal, or just Andodos' ideal? If she is an ideal, what could it be saying about them? Ideals inspire, but you can't catch them? Should you catch them; should you try? Ideals seem to lead you into trouble and deception if you are not careful, or maybe more discerning.

Tamara wrote: "All we know is we have to keep going until we reach the end of the journey."

That reminds me of the variously attributed quote: If you are going through hell, keep going.

At this point, I suspect Anodos could NOT retrace his steps and exit fairy land if he wanted to or tried. Which is true of a lot of journeys.
ETA: NOT

I feel Anodos is compelled to continue the journey in order to reach some kind of "enlightenment." Perhaps the dark shadow represents his old self and clings to him until his discovery of a new vision in the real world??

I wonder if there is anything to being saved by someone else who had previously fallen victim to the same evil?

“Very likely,” I thought, “the repentant knight, who warned me of the evil which has befallen me, was busy retrieving his lost honour, while I was sinking into the same sorrow with himself; and, hearing of the dangerous and mysterious being, arrived at his tree in time to save me. . .

It puts me in mind of an AA sponsor.

Cphe wrote: "It wasn't clear if the shadow was a separate entity or if it was part of Anodos. He certainly felt it was malign."

I am curious to see how things with his shadow turn out. Shades of Peter Pan's shadow, pun intended, but it does seem malign.

David wrote: "At this point, I suspect Anodos could retrace his steps and exit fairy land if he wanted to or tried. Which is true of a lot of journeys..."

He's been wondering around like a lost soul. Half the time he doesn't even know which path he took or why he took it. I doubt if he could retrace his steps and exit.

Tamara wrote: "He's been wondering around like a lost soul. Half the time he doesn't even know which path he took or why he took it. I doubt if he could retrace his steps and exit."

I left out the NOT. That is exactly what I was trying to say. :)

Cphe wrote: "I'm wondering if a ?"third eye" or something very much like it is allowing Anodos to see what other males are unable to."

I think it is "fairy land" genetics that allows him to see fairy land as it is. It was suggested earlier by the woman in the first cottage that he looks like he has fairy blood in him. The young daughter in the second cottage reveals her mother, Betsy, is descended from an enchanted princess:

“But, father,” interposed the little girl in the chimney-corner, “you know quite well that mother is descended from that very princess who was changed by the wicked fairy into a white cat. Mother has told me so a many times, and you ought to believe everything she says.”

It seems to bear some resemblance to predestination perhaps? Apparently it also has something to do with a willingness or an unwillingness to believe it; as the farmer states:

. . .when you come to live every day in the midst of absurdity, it is far less easy to behave respectfully to it.

In chapter III Anodos reads the tale of Sirs Galahad & Percivale and then encounters Percival in Ch VI. I wonder if he might meet some variation of the characters from the book the little farm girl is reading in Ch VII. (Graciosa and Percinet).

Also, I'm confused. Was the woman in stone the same as the "Maid of the Alder-tree"? Or was the Alder-tree imitating her?

The farm girl, "...she put her arms round my neck, and her mouth to my ear, and whispers--"A white lady has been flitting about the house all night." (Ch VII)

I am looking forward to discovering where the next chapters lead.

David wrote: "I left out the NOT. That is exactly what I was trying to say. :) .."

That makes a heck of a lot more sense :)

Jenny wrote: "Was the woman in stone the same as the "Maid of the Alder-tree"? Or was the Alder-tree imitating her?.."

He identifies her as the Maid of the Alder:

...for I now saw another figure beside her, which, although vague and indistinct, I yet recognised but too well. It was the Ash-tree. My beauty was the Maid of the Alder! and she was giving me, spoiled of my only availing defence, into the hands of my awful foe.

"Something compels me to go on, as if my only path was onward, but I feel less inclined this morning to continue my adventures",

says me, every morning, as I hit my alarm clock's snooze button.

Tamara wrote: "Jenny wrote: "Was the woman in stone the same as the "Maid of the Alder-tree"? Or was the Alder-tree imitating her?.."

He identifies her as the Maid of the Alder:

...for I now saw another figure..."
Thank you

Tamara wrote: "Jenny wrote: "Was the woman in stone the same as the "Maid of the Alder-tree"? Or was the Alder-tree imitating her?.."

He identifies her as the Maid of the Alder:

...for I now saw another figure..."

As I understand, he mistook her for the lady of the marble or I am wrong?

Alexey wrote: "As I understand, he mistook her for the lady of the marble or I am wrong? .."

I understood it to mean that he is taken in by the lady of marble and he chases after her. He senses there is something distant/strange about her even as he follows her, but he continues to follow her because of her beauty.

When he wakes up in the cave and discovers her true identity, he berates himself for being taken in by her looks. If you recall, he asks the old lady later how beauty and wickedness can coexist:

“But tell me how it is that she could be so beautiful without any heart at all—without any place even for a heart to live in.”

The moral of the story is when a marble statue comes to life, whatever you do, DO NOT FOLLOW HER!

It is my understanding that the marble lady, who is white, is a different woman from the white-lady, aka, the alder-maiden. After Anodos sings and disenchants the marble lady, she floats away. While looking for the marble lady the alder maiden tricks Anodos into thinking that she is the marble lady, or Anodos is so taken with beautiful women that he cannot or does not care to tell the difference. I think the lesson that needs to be learned here is to keep your wits about you when faced with beauty because everything beautiful is not good, i.e., master your passions. Anodos continually disregards this in pursuit of his ideal and demonstrates this by constantly throwing himself at the feet of beautiful women, which also struck me as excessively needy, and a little creepy.

It is a little confusing since the marble lady and the alder-maiden are both described as a white lady. There is a troublesome lack of proper names in the story so far.

I suggested "predestination" in message 18 for why some can "see" in fairy land and others cannot. This was not by accident. From the wikipedia page on MacDonald it is said that:

MacDonald appears to have never felt comfortable with some aspects of Calvinist doctrine, feeling that its principles were inherently "unfair"; when the doctrine of predestination was first explained to him, he burst into tears (although assured that he was one of the elect).

If MacDonald was uncomfortable with predestination, why does the story seem to imply a class of people who can "see" fairy land and a class of people who do not?

I also understood the lady in marble to be different from the enchantress Anodos eventually finds in the forest.

About the shadow--we'll see how it plays out, but I took this for a visible rendering of our scars we acquire in the period of growing up. Anados has been this incredibly naïve person so far--as soon as someone warns him not to do something, he goes off and does it and wishes he hadn't. What do you call what you get when you don't get what you want? Experience. Experiences usually leave their mark--they can even cast a shadow in your life.

Conversely, this idea of looking into the closet and seeing something of the infinite seems somewhat similar to Nietzsche's looking into the abyss and fighting with monsters--these things will leave their imprint. Even if Nietzsche's abyss is a stretch, one could still interpret this as a look inside one's own psyche, and the shadow that might cast.

I also thought there was enough foreshadowing with the boy who led Anodos to the ogress' hut--I had a pretty good idea that was what was about to happen as soon as the mother suggested that her son would guide Anodos.

David wrote: "Chapter VI
Anodos wonders at the following question: How can beauty and ugliness dwell so near?

Chapter VI..."

This is a great question to wonder. I tend to think that Beauty and Ugliness are often very near from each other, we just don't see them.

For me, sometimes I struggle with a cynical perspective of the world, and this leads me to see ugliness often. However, there is often beauty in ugly or tragic situations. We just have to find it.

Bryan wrote: "About the shadow--we'll see how it plays out, but I took this for a visible rendering of our scars we acquire in the period of growing up. Anados has been this incredibly naïve person so far--as soon as someone warns him not to do something, he goes off and does it and wishes he hadn't. What do you call what you get when you don't get what you want? Experience. Experiences usually leave their mark--they can even cast a shadow in your life."
Experience may lead to the cynicism that kills the joy of life. But as grown up, we should incorporate it in our individualities as well as naïvity of the youth.
Perhaps, I am too straightforward (or too Jungian) in the interpretation of the shadow?

David wrote: "If MacDonald was uncomfortable with predestination, why does the story seem to imply a class of people who can "see" fairy land and a class of people who do not?"

Perhaps because the "gift" of access to fairy land is of dubious benefit? It's not like heaven vs. hell.

Rosemary wrote: "Perhaps because the "gift" of access to fairy land is of dubious benefit? It's not like heaven vs. hell."

If the benefits are dubious, then why call fairy land a "gift"? Also, the idea that even with fairy blood, one must apparently believe it to see it sounds suspiciously like certain claims of the religious that believing is seeing.

I am not so sure it is "not like heaven vs. hell". I suspect there is much more to the allegory/metaphor for MacDonald's theology in this story that we are missing.

Given what I know of MacDonald's philosophy (see for instance his famous short essay The Fantastic Imagination ), I incline to think of fairy-land as symbolic of the world of the imagination, which, in some respects reminiscent of Jung's unconscious, may be populated with all manner of forms, good and evil. This may be a very dangerous place for the naive, a place where distorted desires are given free rein by inexperience. But it can also be a road to God. This quote from one of MacDonald's characters in another novel may be helpful: "It is God who gives thee thy mirror of imagination, and if thou keep it clean, it will give thee back no shadow but of the truth."

Rex wrote: "Given what I know of MacDonald's philosophy (see for instance his famous short essay
The Fantastic Imagination
), I incline to think of fairy-land as symbolic of the world of the imagination, wh..."

That seems consistent with my understanding of MacDonald's philosophy/theology so far. Fairy land is a product of our thoughts and imagination as we and our universe are products of God's imagination.

Lots of interesting commentary! In particular, I didn't think of the Maid of Alder and the marble lady being two different characters. But the more I think of it, it makes more sense since Percival was taken in by the Maid. Why would she now be hidden in stone and need "disenchantment" to come to life?

I like how Anodos becomes more in tune with nature as he moves along, eating of the earth's produce, hearing the animals speak (loved the conversation between the squirrels!) and seeing life all about him. Does it require fairy blood for us to "hear" and "feel" nature?

To continue with my last comment from the first section in regards to reading of fairy tales. It does seem to influence Anodos. Now he reads about Sir Percival and the knight appears in his travels the next day. What will happen from the reading by the daughter of her fairy tale?

Chris wrote: "To continue with my last comment from the first section in regards to reading of fairy tales. It does seem to influence Anodos. Now he reads about Sir Percival and the knight appears in his travels..."

I agree. To take up the theme of "mirrors", it seems that whatever Anodos may read, think or imagine, it is soon reflected in the events that follow; more than mere foreshadowing.

These seem to be examples of how our thoughts and imagination are manifested in fairy land and are a mirror of God's thoughts and imagination manifesting themselves in us and our world. Now I am reminded of the movie Inception, and thinking what happens if we succeed in creating autonomous A.I.

Chris wrote: "Does it require fairy blood for us to "hear" and "feel" nature?.."

The Romantic poets (forgive my background in Brit. Lit rearing its head) argued that our over-reliance on reason has caused us to lose our ability to see, hear, and feel nature:

"though the dull brain perplexes and retards." (from Keat's Ode to a Nightingale).

We need to re-ignite our imagination through poetry, song, music, the arts, etc. etc. to "re-see" nature.