Indie Book Club discussion

Hey, everyone.

Slightly difficult to know what to write (ironically). The group's got a decent sized membership on paper, but many are inactive. The Book of the Month threads, which used to get a reasonable conversation going, have been lacklustre for a while now.

It's not clear to me why that is. Participating in other people's BotM threads helps increase interest in the group and board, so that if/when your own work gets nominated and selected more people get exposed to your book. Even from a selfish perspective, it's a win (and, from a non-selfish perspective, I've found a few good books I would never have read through the BotM winners).

I'm not the group founder/supreme overlord (that's Scott, who is sadly still absent), nor the only mod, but I felt like this needs addressing before Indie Book Club slides into the abyss.

The group should be for both writers and readers of independent/self-published books. I'm open to suggestions regarding how to get more conversations going and a more active membership.

A few ideas I've had include:
A brief hiatus for the Book of the Month threads. At the moment, it's an advert for inactivity and authors who 'win', instead of benefiting from lively conversation, must be disappointed with how few responses each thread gets.

Shotgun posting. If you write a blog or similar and have something relevant to independent books (for example, best way to format stuff or map size that works on an e-reader) why not post it here as well, and include a link to your blog at the end? To quote Charlie Sheen: it's bi-winning. More traffic for your blog, more conversation for here.

If you have good/bad/indifferent services (editing, proofreading etc) do let us know.

Off-topic: books are great, but everybody has other interests too, so hopefully we can get this board going as well.


Anyway, let me know what you think. I found Goodreads via the blog upon which this group was/is based, and it's a shame to see it so quiet.

Sounds a good idea. I do struggle with BOM as it depends on how much time I can spend on reading. I hate having to read something within a time scale (too much like A-level Eng Lit).
I just chatting about the latest books a reader picked up, good/bad services and blog posts are a reasonable idea.

I confess that I'm one of those formerly-active members who now just lurks silently in the shadows. I like this group, but because of its wide remit within the indie world there's only a small number of discussions that interest me. Because of my reading interests, I spend most of my time on Goodreads in dedicated science-fiction forums.

To be honest, indie books have infiltrated most groups now. We also have dedicated groups for indie writers (like our Smashwords group). I think this group should be for people who read (and support) indie books, but it's difficult to know what to suggest to grab people's attention.

An idea may be to pick one group read on the basis of popularity (i.e. nominations must be for books that are already indie hits), thus drawing established indie fans to the site, then have another group read for indie newcomers. Or something...

I'm still working through a few titles on my to-read list, hope to be through it by end of the month, then I can add a few indie titles.

Also, I'm in a similar situation. I read mostly sci-fi and am not really interested in reading indie titles in other genres, with the exception of fantasy and legal thrillers.

I'll get into it a bit more in September.

The fantasy/sci-fi ones usually get more interest.

I don't know what to suggest. Author of the month? Alternate books - Month 1 Spec fic - month 2 any other genre
Prizes or competitions - if the author of said book is here then maybe they can do a quiz and offer a prize?

Hmm. Perhaps a small e-book bundle for a randomly selected participant in debates?

I wonder if a review section might also prove worthwhile.

Thanks for your contributions, everyone, and keep them coming if anyone has more to add.

Yes a Read and Review or general review section might work. Or competitions - although someone has to organise those:(

For the next week or two I'm proofreading an almost finished work. Once that's done I should have enough free time to see about trying to implement some of the suggestions.

Edited extra bit: very nearly done. So, I hope to make some progress here next week.

So, a concise list of stuff suggested so far:
shotgun posting (reposting relevant blog-posted stuff, with a link to said blog, here)

read and review general board/thread

encouragement to bang on about off-topic stuff on the relevant board

picking popular indie books to read and consider, to try and attract more interest

prizes/competitions (perhaps a small bundle of indie books?)

return to BOTM/OBOTM once things get a little livelier

----

Any more?

Not that I can think of.

How about interviews? They don't have to be author based ones - I run reader interviews on my blog. That could be fun.

Interviews could work :)

Going to see if I have the power of Grayskull to make a new board for reviews.

Edited extra bit: behold my unholy modly power!

Indie Reviews now up here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group...

Just a basic set of rules for now. Feel free to suggest any, or to start leaving reviews as and when you like.

By all means, so long as it's independent/self-published or from a small press. Not being a member is absolutely not a bar :)

Oddly these haven't been showing up in my email.

Or have a separate thread for group author books. One group I mod for we have author of the month. People can ask questions and whatnot. Authors can chat about their books and plans. As it distinct from the other sections people can avoid it if they don't care.:)

I'd agree, any SP or indie book can be nominated. We've had a few.

I've been contemplating this - how about 'member of the month' (somehow that sounds wrong).

Someone can be nominated and other members can ask questions. Might be nice for some of the readers/reviewers.

Very wrong :p

I do like the idea, but I wonder, and worry, it might be a bit too quiet for it to work well. With the return of BOTM, we'll see how busy/how many people read November's Book of the Month, and proceed from there.

I just want to say that I like following this group, especially when people share info and ideas. I don't do BOM because I have too many things I already want to read, but it doesn't mean I'm not following along. The groups I see that have most involvement are discussing a variety of related topics like sharing what has worked and what hasn't, getting feedback on ideas, and discussing tv shows and things like that. I could make an effort to bring those kinds of discussions here. When I have before I've had good feedback and even met some friends.

RA, thanks for your post, and your suggestion. It gives me an idea for a blog (to be reposted here) about the influence of videogames/TV on books.

More than happy for you to bring/start such discussions here :)

That would be a good discussion.

My absence from the group hasn't been because of anything the group itself has or hasn't been doing - I have not been able to be more active because there has simply been one family or medical crisis after another for months and months on end.

I'm hoping that things are starting to calm down enough that I can manage to participate more often.

Sorry to hear that JD, I hope things are better now.

One way to increase readership might be to ask those who are authors to write a short piece and post it in the writing section. Keep an eye out and post when others are not posting. This will bring the group to the attention of those reading the digests.

I've posted a short piece just now.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

I'm new, so I apologize if it's too early for me to participate in this thread with a link, but as an indie I'm interested in conversations about indie things - one of which is how audiences perceive (or maybe receive) independent art.

I was listening to a recent episode of the Flickcast podcast, and I heard one of the hosts make what was probably meant to be a harmless remark on indie authors (and this is just a snip, a brief blip in a conversation, but it's important, I think):

"...it’s like writing a novel. You know, if you publish your novel on Amazon, or self-publish it, you’re not really an — I mean people think you’re not really an author, sometimes..."

It led me to wonder about the possible effect of this:

Book X is self-published. Readers respond.

Book X (same exact book) is published by Random House. Readers respond.

Would the responses be different?

The full post is here, if you're interested. I'd love to know other people's thoughts, especially as fellow indies or readers of indies: http://chrisjane.net/2014/11/06/indie...

Chris wrote: "I'm new, so I apologize if it's too early for me to participate in this thread with a link, but as an indie I'm interested in conversations about indie things - one of which is how audiences percei..."

I think you're probably right. I guarantee that if my novels were published by Harper Collins or something, the people I mention them to would take them more seriously. And honestly I tend to give more credibility to trad books at the start, but I don't like them more just because of it. In fact, I often find myself let down and wonder how they 'got away with publishing that'.

R.A. wrote: "Chris wrote: "I'm new, so I apologize if it's too early for me to participate in this thread with a link, but as an indie I'm interested in conversations about indie things - one of which is how au..."

That may be true now, but I don't think that will be true in twenty years.

R.A. wrote: "Chris wrote: "I'm new, so I apologize if it's too early for me to participate in this thread with a link, but as an indie I'm interested in conversations about indie things - one of which is how au..."
I've wondered the same, now and then.

Chris wrote: "I'm new, so I apologize if it's too early for me to participate in this thread with a link, but as an indie I'm interested in conversations about indie things - one of which is how audiences percei..."

If an author is going to go the self-published route, they need to make sure that they can place their book on a table of traditionally published books and either a) see no discernible difference, or b) be a step above the standard traditionally published books. Which all comes down to quality cover design, formatting, and editing.

If your book looks like a traditionally published novel, then most readers won't even realize until after they read it, and start looking into your website and bio.

The attitudes about self publishing have really shifted in the last year and they continue to do so. A lot of traditional authors with huge fan bases are self-publishing short stories and novellas. I think self-publishing and small presses are well on their way to being accepted as equals. But only if self-published authors continue to strive towards professionalism.

I just have this feeling that there will always be mounds of self/indie publishers who throw everything they scratch out onto Amazon, so it will always be a matter of picking through to find the gems. That's why I love looking at review sites and having book friends to recommend things to me. It helps me find good books, and it also helps good authors find audiences.
Even with this view, I am very glad that I ended up going self pub. It's been a great learning experience and I love getting to make my own mistakes. I have no problem working against the stereotype.

Sabrina wrote: "Chris wrote: "I'm new, so I apologize if it's too early for me to participate in this thread with a link, but as an indie I'm interested in conversations about indie things - one of which is how au..."

I agree that striving for professionalism is key as the author, but with the blog post I wrote, I'm really more interested in people's perceptions in general of the art they're taking in, and whether its positioning makes a difference in how they see it/how much they like it. Pretend it's not a book. Pretend it's a painting.

An example used in the blog post:

Painting on a sidewalk: "I guess it's pretty good."
The same painting in a gallery: "It's brilliant!"

Chris wrote: An example used in the blog post:

Painting on a sidewalk: "I guess it's pretty good."
The same painting in a gallery: "It's brilliant!"

I can definitely see your point, but I think the internet acts as a leveling field. It allows a writer to offer their work on the same platforms as trad-published authors. So in a sense, self-pub authors are in the same art gallery. We can even submit our books to major review sites like Kirkus. We just don't have the financial backing of a major publishing company. There are ways to get your book into bookstores too, but with most readers buying ebooks, I don't really see much point to it. Book conventions are also putting self-published authors on panels.

You read a mediocre book from a publishing house - maybe there are a few errors, weak plot/characters - what do you think? Maybe you think, well that wasn't as good as I expected, you overlook the typos and grumble about the lame plot.

You read a mediocre book which has been self-published which exactly the same sort of issues - how do you react now?

I judge trad books more harshly. They have the money and professionals to make every book perfect. If they slack off, they're going to hear it in a review. Not that they care...

:)

Fair enough.

The comparison to an art gallery reminds me of my trip to a modern art museum in Germany. There was a display of old newspapers featuring Saddam Hussein on the front page. Saddam Hussein had jerked off to his own photos in prison and then sprinkled glitter on the semen. The fact that it was displayed in a professional art gallery, did not make me go... "It's Brilliant!"

Good art is good art. Good books are good books. But then, everything is subjective.

I am curious. Am I the only reader who doesn't check the publishing company before buying a book?

Sabrina wrote: " It allows a writer to offer their work on the same platforms as trad-published authors. So in a sense, self-pub authors are in the same art gallery. We can even submit our books to major review sites like Kirkus. We just don't have the financial backing of a major publishing company. ..."

Completely agree with you. (Backing - really. I'd like to have it for a Kirkus review. Surely publishers get some kind of bulk rate and don't pay $500 per review.)

I guess I just think there's a reason the Flickcast host said what he did. And I don't think he's alone. (And, really, it's not just about books, but about all kinds of art. He started out talking about movies, indie vs. Big Production Company. Music, obviously, is excluded. There doesn't really seem to be a stigma there.)

Chris wrote: Music, obviously, is excluded. There doesn't really seem to be a stigma there.)


If I remember right... there used to be a stigma with indie produced music. If an artist didn't have a big label, then only obscure indie stations would play them. I think it all evened out with the whole Napster, internet, and iTunes revolution. I was young when all this was happening, so maybe someone else will add their comments.

Sabrina wrote: "The comparison to an art gallery reminds me of my trip to a modern art museum in Germany. There was a display of old newspapers featuring Saddam Hussein on the front page. Saddam Hussein had jerked..."

I usually don't, but most of the books I see are indie because I discover them on booksends or here. I almost don't by traditional books anymore. I buy/download indie books and get trad books at the library. There are so many decent books for under 3 bucks that I can't stand to pay $12 for a traditionally published ebook. But I thoroughly check out those indie books before I bother because the bulk of them are choppy or have bad editing, which can bother me if I'm not totally swept away in the story from the beginning.

It's an interesting discussion, but it does not address the problem of kickstarting the group.

Oops. I thought the point was conversation. Maybe we should take the discussion to another thread?

Chris, I think a lot of people think that. It's curious: if you're self-employed as a carpenter, nobody would knock it. Likewise for a musician.

Sabrina, I don't check. I was surprised to find the Spellmonger series [only read the first two at the moment] were self-published. Lots of typos, though the author indicated he was going to correct that, but the characters and story are fantastic.

On this conversation, perfectly happy to continue it here. If anyone has more suggestions on getting things busier, this is still the place to make them [on that note, I do have plans for more blogs about world-building and the like, but I've had little time lately to do them].

R.A. wrote:But I thoroughly check out those indie books before I bother because the bulk of them are choppy or have bad editing, which can bother me if I'm not totally swept away in the story from the beginning.


And I think that is what is so wonderful about the book market these days... it's getting harder to distinguish between self-pub and traditional pub. There is a still a slush pile (and there is definitely a slush pile in trad-pub too), but a lot of indie authors are producing books that can hold their own with any traditional pub.

I went to Bouchercon last weekend (big mystery book convention), and it was great because they included self-pub authors with trad-pub authors and small press authors on the same panels. But what was more, they didn't distinguish one from the other. It wasn't until I visited one author's site that I realized he was self-pub.

I have the same test for every book I come across. I admit it... I judge a book by its cover. If the cover catches me, then I will open it up and read the first page. If the first page is well written and catches my interest, I'll read it.

It's kind of an exciting time in the book world. Everything is changing, and I think change is always a good thing when it comes to the creative fields.

Thaddeus wrote: "Chris, I think a lot of people think that. It's curious: if you're self-employed as a carpenter, nobody would knock it. Likewise for a musician.

So true, Thaddeus. Your statement reminded me of an article I just read about how some in the publishing industry are worried about the influx of books being released, and that the industry needs Gatekeepers or readers will be overwhelmed.

I was thinking about the music industry (or even movies) as comparison. Anyone can buy an instrument and make a recording these days. But no one is worried that the influx of self-recorded CDs is going to drown out quality music and overwhelm listeners.

We're still a long way off the end-game of how publishing/writing will look following the technological advances which have completely altered how it works.

Retailers, publishers and writers are all vying for control and power. Self-publishing will never vanish, but larger firms will try and return to the role of Gatekeepers if they possibly can.

A.L. wrote: "Sorry to hear that JD, I hope things are better now."

Thanks! Still a bit on the rough side, but hopefully looking up.

Chris wrote: "...(Backing - really. I'd like to have it for a Kirkus review. Surely publishers get some kind of bulk rate and don't pay $500 per review.)..."

Trad publishers don't pay a dime for Kirkus reviews. The cost of paying the reviewers is covered by subscriptions. But those subscriptions won't even come close to covering the cost of paying people to read and review every indie-published book out there, so Kirkus Indie is a separate program with a fee.

Interesting. I can understand it, I guess, but it still seems wrong somehow.

I just saw this post on the Smashwords site. A really good article on indie-publishing that is along the same lines of this discussion: http://www.digitalbookworld.com/2014/...

These two lines jumped out at me:
Readers aren’t interested in how the author published the book. They are interested in quality, looking only for the best book to buy.

It seems like self-publishing is becoming a better regulated and more professional sector of the industry. Noise can be soothing to some and good for quick headlines, but professionalism and thorough planning will be key to longevity, and that those features are coming to the fore is great news. What is clear, at any rate, is that self-publishing is undoubtedly here to stay.