THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion

The June 2019 Theme read is on any book or books of your choice that covers D-Day or any other battle that occurred in 1944, land, air or sea.

I plan on joining this theme read, with my entry being, The Longest Day by Cornelious Ryan. I found a used copy at my library for $2, and have been waiting for the right time to read it. I'm looking forward to participating in my first theme read in this group.

In memory of my father - who died last March 1 (2019), age 93, who had served in the U.S. Army from 1943-46, and saw action in Normandy, the Battle of the Bulge, Germany and Czechoslovakia - I plan on reading next month

St Lô 1944: The Battle of the Hedgerows by Steven J. Zaloga

KOMET wrote: "In memory of my father - who died last March 1 (2019), age 93, who had served in the U.S. Army from 1943-46, and saw action in Normandy, the Battle of the Bulge, Germany and Czechoslovakia - I plan..."

Komet: I salute your dad.

Like MR9, I take my hat off in honour of your father Komet.

Tom wrote: "Rereading D-Day: The Battle for Normandy which is giving me a unique experience. This was the first of Beevor's works I read, and having now read all but two of his works, I recogniz..."

Very true Tom, very valid comments.

Good thing I just ordered a used copy of Das Reich: The March of the 2nd SS Panzer Division Through France, June 1944 by Max Hastings for $1.50 USD. ;-)

My wife gave me the awesome Christmas present of a Normandy tour this summer. In prep, i've either read or am about to read this list:

Leonard Rapport: Rendezvous with Destiny: History of the 101st Airborne Division
Stephen Ambrose: Band of Brothers

George Koskimaki: D-Day with the Screaming Eagles
Antony Beevor: D-Day: The Battle for Normandy
Cornelius Ryan: The Longest Day
Carlo D'Este: Decision in Normandy
Ben Macintyre: Double Cross: The True Story of the D-Day Spies
Stephen E. Ambrose: D-Day, June 6, 1944: The Battle for the Normandy Beaches
Max Hastings: Overlord: D-Day and the Battle for Normandy
John Keegan: Six Armies in Normandy
Richard Hargreaves: The Germans in Normandy

This is an online source to study and examine.
They are the daily situation maps of the 12th Army Group from D day until the end of the war and beyond.

You can save the maps as big memory hogs but they are interesting to examine. Obviously, in the light of time, they may have
inaccuracies but they are fascinating to examine.

https://www.loc.gov/collections/world...

In reading about D Day all the books cited are invaluable to look at.
They do represent different phases of our understanding of the Overlord and D day.
Cornelius Ryan always is fascinating because he was financed by Readers Digest to do the immense work of producing his amazing bestseller, THE LONGEST DAY.

He wrote this to Herb Caen in 1973 as he was dying of cancer.

"He had sold, he believed, between 25 and 35 million copies of The Longest Day and 400,000 hardcover copies of The Last Battle in the United States alone. Yet each book had cost him some $150,000 to research. “I have no less than 7,000 books on every aspect of World War II. My files contain some 16,000 different interviews with Germans, British, French, etc,” he wrote. “Then there is the chronology of each battle, 5x7 cards, detailing each movement by hour for the particular work I’m engaged in. You may think this is all a kind of madness, an obsession. I suppose it is.”

https://archives.cjr.org/second_read/...

Ryan was enthusiastically supported by De Witt Wallace of READERS DIGEST
This translates into today's dollars to almost $900,000 per book.
I do not know any military historian who has received that kind of fiscal support per book ever.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeWitt_...


When you check this source look at the depth of research he was able to do with the support of Readers Digest

https://www.library.ohio.edu/about/co...

Gregg wrote: "Good thing I just ordered a used copy of Das Reich: The March of the 2nd SS Panzer Division Through France, June 1944 by Max Hastings for $1.50 USD. ;-)"

That's a good book as well Gregg, I hope you enjoy it.

Richard wrote: "My wife gave me the awesome Christmas present of a Normandy tour this summer. In prep, i've either read or am about to read this list:

Leonard Rapport: Rendezvous with Destiny: History of the 101s..."

What an excellent present Richard and you have a great reading list ready to go, enjoy the reading and your trip.

Jim wrote: "In reading about D Day all the books cited are invaluable to look at.
They do represent different phases of our understanding of the Overlord and D day.
Cornelius Ryan always is fascinating because..."

That's pretty amazing Jim! Thanks for sharing those details with the rest of the group.

I've got two on my e-book that are unread. Overlord by Max Hastings and The Germans in Normandy by Richard Hargreaves. I think I'll start with a look at D-day from the opposite side.

I sometimes peruse here but haven't really participated. Don't know if I'll get anything topical read this month because I have a busy 2 week trip shortly and it's also hiking/camping season here in the NW. Still, because I happen to have a D-Day birthday (not 1944, though), I'll offer a little story. By way of background, my parents were ethnic Germans from Central and Eastern Europe, so by accident of geography, they were unavoidably on the German side of things. My mother even saw Hitler in his open touring car when he passed her house in the Sudetenland in 38. Of my father and 4 uncles of military age (one barely 17), only my father survived. However, two close friends of one uncle did survive the E. Front despite serious wounds. I interviewed both men, but the story of one of them (Oskar) is pertinent to Normandy. And Oskar''s story is quite an incredible one. During a battle he was hit in the hip and losing a lot of blood. He just managed to pull himself onto the deck of a Panzer during the fighting and hung on as it battled Russian tanks. The Panzer eventually dropped him off when it needed more ammo. That night, Oskar escaped from a freight train crammed with the wounded and dying when the Russians shot it up with artillery and then overran it. He escaped by rolling down an embankment and then using a sunflower stalk as a makeshift crutch. He and a few others hobbled all night. Anyway, following his recovery, he was sent to S. France, then Normandy just in time for D-day. His unit was mostly on the receiving end of things. Survived shelling and bombing, but eventually received an even more serious wound that should have killed him. It was a massive American carpet bombing attack. Then the aid station house he was taken to was hit. Was evacuated from hospital to hospital in France as the front moved ever eastward. Took him most of the rest of the war to recover and he still carries a piece of iron shrapnel in his lung. Yes, he's still alive at 94 in Austria. I can't help but think of his story at this time because I just saw him again in March as I passed through Vienna on a flight from Jordan. It's quite amazing, the experiences out there. BTW, if anybody with an interest in German armament happens to go to Jordan, don't pass up the Royal Tank Museum in Amman!

I know what I can't wait to read. Sand and Steel: A New History of D-DaybyPeter Caddick-Adams

I have a dilemma my wife has limited me to be able to purchase three books on D-Day and as there is so many book coming out from Good Authors... I have already got James Holland Normandy 44 so now down to two..

Deciding between

First Wave: The D-Day Warriors Who Led the Way to Victory in the Second World War By Alex Kershaw

Sand and Steel: The D-Day Invasions and the Liberation of France by Peter Caddick-Adams

D-Day: The Soldiers' Story by Giles Milton

D-Day: The British Beach Landings by John Sadler

Landing on the Edge of Eternity: Twenty-Four Hours at Omaha Beach by Robert Kershaw

or any other suggestions would be great! Looking to reading your thoughts...

Erich wrote: "I sometimes peruse here but haven't really participated. Don't know if I'll get anything topical read this month because I have a busy 2 week trip shortly and it's also hiking/camping season here i..."

Erich: Oskar has more lives than a cat.

John wrote: "I've got two on my e-book that are unread. Overlord by Max Hastings and The Germans in Normandy by Richard Hargreaves. I think I'll start with a look at D-day from the opposite side."

I didn't care for Hastings' book on Overlord very much, but Hargreaves' book is excellent.

I'm going to start this one on Saturday, the first of three Beevor titles for me this year:

D-Day: The Battle for Normandy

Wow, Oskar sounds like my late friend Georg-Peter Eder, fighter pilot with 76 victories. Shot down 17 times, wounded 14 times, bailed out 12 times, survived a collision with a B-17 in his Me-262, survived a collision with an enemy fighter, etc.

I'll probably go to hell for it, but I'm reading Ambrose's D-Day.
D-Day, June 6, 1944: The Battle for the Normandy Beaches
I know all about his reputation and his abrasive personality, but it was the only thing available on audio when I searched at my library (that I hadn't read), and I needed an audio book since I spend every waking hour at work, commuting, or doing school work.

Dimitri wrote: "I know what I can't wait to read.Sand and Steel: A New History of D-DaybyPeter Caddick-Adams"

I'm still waiting for my copy to arrive Dimitri but I am sure I will be reading it as soon as it lands!

Man, I can see joining this group is going to be expensive. My kindle backlog has grown several books already :-)

This is very true. Based on Aussi’s review of Spearhead I bought it. Sounds very good...

...sorry ...Aussie’s review!!!

Richard wrote: "Man, I can see joining this group is going to be expensive. My kindle backlog has grown several books already :-)"

As Lone Watie (played by Chief Dan George) told Josey Wales (played by Clint Eastwood) in The Outlaw Josey Wales, the advice he had received from the President: "Endeavor to persevere." ;-)

It's a few days early, but I've started on the third volume of Read Admiral Edward Ellsberg's WW II memoirs --

THE FAR SHORE.

This volume is concerned with the naval operations leading up to and on D-Day. Ellsberg's Under the Red Sea Sun was excellent. It described Ellsberg's command of salvage ops in the Red Sea port of Massawa after the Italian withdrawal.

John wrote: "This is very true. Based on Aussi’s review of Spearhead I bought it. Sounds very good..."

I hope you enjoy it as much as I did, keep us all posted.

Will do!

My copy of "Sand & Steel" arrived this afternoon and its a massive 1025 pages (888 pages of narrative) so I figured I'd get a head start of the theme month.

Sand & Steel: The D-Day Invasions and the Liberation of France by Peter Caddick-Adams

This is from the Introduction of; "Sand & Steel":

"To beat the Germans, across the water came an inventory of 700,000 separate items, from 137,000 jeeps, trucks and half-tracks, 4,217 tanks and fully tracked vehicles, and 3,500 artillery pieces, to a replacement rail network with 1,800 steam locomotives; 240 million pounds of potatoes; fifty-four million gallons of beer; twenty-six million jerrycans; sixteen million tons of fuel, food and ammunition; fifteen million condoms; ten million 'bags, vomit'; 2.4 million tent pegs; a million gallons of fresh drinking water (for the first three days alone); 800,000 pints of blood plasma (segregated carefully by black and white donors); 300,000 telegraph poles; 260,000 grave markers; cigarettes; toothbrushes - and 210 million maps."

I'm not too sure about the statement of 1,800 steam locomotives, as that seems excessive. I did a Internet search and the only information I could find was this:

Equipment to be ferried to the Continent by D plus 90 included 354 locomotives, 4,136 20-ton covered cars, 1,862 20-ton open freight cars, 519 50-ton flatcars, 395 cabooses, 152 tank cars, 30 refrigerator cars, 54 40-ton gondolas, and other rolling stock including 6 ambulance trains.

Source:
https://history.army.mil/html/referen...

Does anyone else have an idea on the number of locomotives shipped to Europe in 1944?

Paul wrote: "I'll probably go to hell for it, but I'm reading Ambrose's D-Day.
D-Day, June 6, 1944: The Battle for the Normandy Beaches
I know all about his reputation and his abrasive personality,..."
Don't apologize for reading this one. I loved it and have read it twice. I read the chapters focusing on Omaha Beach about 4 times. I bought it for my dad when it first came out as a fathers day present the year it came out. I saw all the interviews at the Eisenhower Center. It truly was a book that started it all for me.

From Admiral Edward Ellsberg's The Far Shore.

Admiral (then Captain) Ellsberg was among the world's leading experts on maritime salvage. He was sent by Admiral Ernest King to the staff of Admiral Stark in London to aid in preparation for D-Day.

Among the many innovative productions that went from conception to operation and made D-Day possible was the artificial harbors composed of numerous elements but known collectively as Operational Mulberry. The construction and deployment of the Phoenix floating caissons that would provide the breakwater functions on the invasion beaches was -- for some odd reason -- given to the Royal Engineers -- a very capable bunch, but without any maritime experience. The Phoenix caissons (displacing from 2,000 to 6,000 tons) were constructed all over the UK and then floated to staging points with tugs. The problems arose when they arrived at the staging points. The tugs couldn't stand-by for weeks holding them in place and the Royal Engineers hadn't procured mooring buoys and the thousands of yards of mooring cable and chains which would be required to moor the caissons. When the problem was identified, the Royal Navy was consulted. The sailors quickly calculated the number of heavy mooring buoys and the length of mooring gear required and declared the matter impossible to fix. The necessary equipment didn't exist in the UK and couldn't be built in time. The Royal Engineers then (temporarily) solved the problems by flooding the caissons and sinking them in the sea bed, as they would eventually end up off France. Now the problems were magnified.

How does one raise (salvage) all the caissons on short-notice? The Royal Engineers equipped two (yes, TWO) Dutch coasters with elaborate centrifugal pumps to raise the sunken Phoenixes. The problem: such pumps (they were sewage pumps taken from London) lacked the head to pump out the caissons. This was when Ellsberg arrived on the scene. He was sent by Stark to Selsey Bill on the Sussex coast to inspect the Mulberry preparations. Ellsberg immediately saw the shortcomings and convinced the Royal Engineers to test their pumping procedures, which they hadn't yet done. Not one drop of water was pumped from the sunken Phoenixes. Ellsberg immediately returned to London, reported to Stark, and in no time Winston Churchill himself showed on the abandoned beach at Selsey Bill. The operations connected to Mulberry were quickly transferred to the Royal Navy, augmented by the U.S.N. Keep in mind -- all this took place in May of '44. D-Day was only a few weeks away.

Sweetwilliam wrote: "Paul wrote: "I'll probably go to hell for it, but I'm reading Ambrose's D-Day.
D-Day, June 6, 1944: The Battle for the Normandy Beaches
I know all about his reputation and his abrasive..."

Thanks, Sweetwilliam. Not really apologizing as much as trying to be funny. :)

KOMET wrote: "In memory of my father - who died last March 1 (2019), age 93, who had served in the U.S. Army from 1943-46, and saw action in Normandy, the Battle of the Bulge, Germany and Czechoslovakia - I plan..."

Was your Father in 3rd Army?

Paul wrote: "I'll probably go to hell for it, but I'm reading Ambrose's D-Day.
D-Day, June 6, 1944: The Battle for the Normandy Beaches
I know all about his reputation and his abrasive personality,..."

Three Hail Marys and light a candle and Lourdes and you will be forgiven my Son.
LOL

Manray9 wrote: "From Admiral Edward Ellsberg's The Far Shore.

Admiral (then Captain) Ellsberg was among the world's leading experts on maritime salvage. He was sent by Admiral Ernest King to the s..."

Pretty amazing MR9 and very close to a disaster by the sounds of it!

Well, Spearhead: An American Tank Gunner, His Enemy, and a Collision of Lives In World War II by Adam Makos arrived. Now waiting on Fortress Malta: An Island Under Siege 1940-43, Das Reich: The March of the 2nd SS Panzer Division Through France, June 1944, and The Few: The American "Knights of the Air" Who Risked Everything to Fight in the Battle of Britain to arrive.

I found this bit of information from the book; "Sand & Steel" in regards to the draft introduced in the United States in 1940 very interesting. My American friends might be aware of it but I think this was the first time I have read about it:

"Two weeks later, Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson, symbolically blindfolded with a swatch of material taken from a chair used by the signatories of the 1776 Declaration of Independence, was led to the glass bowl used for the same purpose in 1917. It was filled with nine thousand capsules each containing a number; Stimson drew one and handed it to Roosevelt, who called out 'one-five-eight'. Incredibly, among the 6,175 registrants of that number was Alden C. Flagg, Jr. of Boston, Massachusetts, whose father had held the first number drawn from the same glass bowl in 1917."

Sand & Steel: The D-Day Invasions and the Liberation of France by Peter Caddick-Adams

Rommel's report to Hitler after an inspection of the Atlantikwall in December 1943:

"Rommel further bemoaned the fact that the Seventh Army 'possessed over thirty-two different weapon systems with 252 different types of ammunition, of which forty-seven types were no longer produced. The entire Seventh Army had only sixty-eight 88mm and one hundred and seventy 75mm anti-tank guns. The concept of the wall was a complete misnomer: many so-called strongpoints consisted of trenches and sandbags protected by a few strands of barbed wire; more dummy minefields existed than real ones; there were no measures in place against aerial assault; countless open sandy beaches lay unguarded, in some cases relying on a pre-existing sea wall or anti-tank ditch as their only form on linear defence."

The Atlantic Wall:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanti...

Todays sites of the Atlantic Wall:
http://bunkersite.com/locations/franc...

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I found this bit of information from the book; "Sand & Steel" in regards to the draft introduced in the United States in 1940 very interesting. My American friends might be aware of it but I think ..."

During the Vietnam days, it was a lottery by birthday.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Rommel's report to Hitler after an inspection of the Atlantikwall in December 1943:

"Rommel further bemoaned the fact that the Seventh Army 'possessed over thirty-two different weapon systems with..."

This is an interesting contrast to Admiral Ellsberg's descriptions of German defenses in The Far Shore .

MR9 I suppose Rommel had a good six months to rectify many of the faults and issues identified on his inspection.

Paul wrote: "Sweetwilliam wrote: "Paul wrote: "I'll probably go to hell for it, but I'm reading Ambrose's D-Day.
D-Day, June 6, 1944: The Battle for the Normandy Beaches
I know all about his reputa..."

LOL, I know Paul. No problem.

From Admiral Edward Ellsberg's The Far Shore.

Admiral Ellsberg followed up his account of the quick transfer of control of Operation Mulberry from the Royal Engineers to the Royal Navy (see above). He was unaware of the events at the time, but found out later from an officer on Admiral Stark's staff what had taken place. After Ellsberg's report to Stark (who was C-in-C, U.S. Naval Forces, Europe), actions were taken quickly after a surprise visit to Selsey Bill by Churchill. Ellsberg knew Stark was an important figure, but not important enough to get an audience with Churchill and certainly not on such short notice. What happened?

Back in WW I, Lieutenant Stark was assigned to the staff of Admiral Sims, the commander of the U.S. Navy in Europe. Sims sent Stark as a liaison officer aboard a Royal Navy battleship. There Stark met and befriended the young Prince Albert (the future King George VI). They hit it off and became friends -- and more importantly -- shipmates (not an insignificant matter in any navy). Apparently, considering the time crunch involved in the D-Day preparations, Stark took the unprecedented action of placing a bug in the king's ear about Mulberry. The king called Churchill and asked him to make a personal inspection of the situation at Selsey Bill. Even Churchill couldn't say no to the king. That's why Churchill showed up soon after Ellsberg's report and the responsibility for the movement and emplacement of the artificial harbors was transferred into the very capable hands of Commodore MacKenzie -- a Royal Navy salvage expert.

Couldn't wait for Saturday to start reading this one for the theme read:

D-Day: The Battle for Normandy

Manray9 wrote: "From Admiral Edward Ellsberg's The Far Shore.

Admiral Ellsberg followed up his account of the quick transfer of control of Operation Mulberry from the Royal Engineers to the Royal ..."

That's a great story MR9, those personal connection work best eh!

Marc wrote: "Couldn't wait for Saturday to start reading this one for the theme read:

D-Day: The Battle for Normandy"

A book that I am sure you will enjoy, keep us all posted.

Manray9 wrote: "Selsey Bill"

I have made visit to Selsey Bill. My father came from a nearby town called Bognor Regis. He left here in about 1959, I think, the year I was born. My father told me that there had been Mulberry Harbours off Bognor and I am sure I have seen them off there when the tide is out (or are they on the beach I ask myself!!) I never recall him telling me about there being them at Selsey. Makes sense though.

And while writing the above I find this.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peop...

Here is some interesting figures from my book on Normandy in regards to the German construction of the Atlantic Wall:

"Even unfinished, it was an enormous construction effort, with around five thousand bunkers completed by December 1942 and eight thousand by the following June. Between 1942 and 1944 they consumed 1.3 million tons of steel - for reinforcing rods, doors and cupolas - around five per cent of the Reich's total output in those two years, in addition to 17.3 million cubic yards of concrete. By comparison, the six-year project to tunnel under the English Channel, completed in 1994, used 1.7 million cubic yards - exactly one tenth of the concrete poured into the Atlantikwall."

Sand & Steel: The D-Day Invasions and the Liberation of France by Peter Caddick-Adams