The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

Hello everyone. I want to go ahead and open this thread, but I won't be able to post any thoughts until tomorrow. My wife and I have been having some extreme challenges with our toddler. Who knew you can develop insomnia at 21 months old? Sorry for not being prepared. No one has to wait on me though - feel free to post anything that caught your attention from this section.

Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems was a godsend for us. I don't know if it would work for you, but it helped us a lot. Good luck!

Casceil wrote: "Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems was a godsend for us. I don't know if it would work for you, but it helped us a lot. Good luck!"

I will definitely check that out. Last night it was the four month old who had trouble sleeping. I used to fantasize about being rich - now I daydream about sleeping until noon on a Saturday.

I'm still a little behind, so rather than wait until I finish the last three chapters I'll post what I have now and finish posting about the section later today or early tomorrow.

The common refrain running through the week two thread is the challenge of James's style. We were able to drill down a bit and identify specific difficulties, such as pronoun use and sentence structure. James's wry sense of humor was also noted. I enjoy the dry, witty banter, but I think sometimes it's so subtle that I probably read past some of it.

Here is a recap of chapters 15-18

Chapter 15 - Mrs. Touchett thinks Isabel made a mistake by refusing Lord Warburton. Henrietta is introduced to Mr. Bantling in London. Ralph and Isabel discuss their views on marriage.

Chapter 16 - Goodwood finally has an interview with Isabel. She tells him she will need at least two years before she will consider his proposal. At the end of the chapter she seems to crumple. Is it hard for her to reject her suitors, or is she exhausted from having to deal with them?

Chapter 17 - Henrietta and Isabel exchange sharp words over Mr. Goodwood. Mr. Touchett falls ill and Ralph and Isabel return to Gardencourt.

Chapter 18 - We are introduced to Madame Merle - an enigmatic figure who everyone finds incredibly interesting. Mr. Touchett agrees to alter his will and split Ralph's inheritance with Isabel.

I'll save my full comments for when I've finished the section, but one thing I'll mention here is the comparisons that have been made between Isabel and characters from other novels. Up until chapter 18 I thought Isabel might end up like Lily from House of Mirth. I suppose 60,000 pounds will save her from such a fate though.

In her conversation with Goodwood, I didn't take it that she would consider his proposal in 2 years. That's what he thought, but she seemed to be just setting as long a time as she could in order to put him off. She gave no indication that she would want to marry anyone, or marry him, ever. Rather, she kept stating the opposite, and he kept refusing to believe it. (Which doesn't make him seem a very desirable partner in my opinion.)

Robin wrote: "In her conversation with Goodwood, I didn't take it that she would consider his proposal in 2 years. That's what he thought, but she seemed to be just setting as long a time as she could in order t..."

I agree that she was putting him off, but she left the possibility of marriage open in a way that she didn't with Lord Warburton. With Warburton it was a definite refusal. Of course now that I've read the section entirely I'd point to her reflections at the end of chapter 21 as further proof - marriage with Goodwood is still a possibility, but she doesn't want to be bothered with thinking about such things at this point.

I'm caught up now. Here are my thoughts on this section:

Chapter 19 - Isabel and Madame Merle deepen their relationship, though Madame Merle is hesitant to divulge too many details about her life. For her part, Isabel admires Madame Merle. Mr. Touchett dies.

Chapter 20 - Isabel has difficulty adjusting to her new position as a wealthy woman. Mrs. Touchett takes her to Paris and Isabel begins to learn how to use her money. We meet Ned Rosier, though it's unclear whether we'll see him again or not. Finally, we meet up with Miss Stackpole again.

Chapter 21 - Mrs. Touchett and Isabel stop to see Ralph before heading to Florence. Henrietta is concerned money will ruin Isabel. Ralph confesses that it was his influence that caused his father to be so generous. Isabel contemplates her suitors and does not seem as opposed to marriage as she was before.

There are a number of issues we can discuss, but honestly there was one question that leaped from the pages in this section - is this a feminist novel or not? Or perhaps more appropriately, is our narrator a misogynist? I could make the question even more difficult by asking if this is a feminist novel with a misogynist narrator, which would make this a very complex novel.

So far we have a number of female characters who are bold and independent - Isabel, Mrs. Touchett, and Miss Stackpole (and possibly Madame Merle). On the male side we have the sickly and passive Mr. Touchett, the weak and sickly Ralph, the gallant but ineffectual Lord Warburton, and Caspar Goodwood. Goodwood is a little harder to dismiss, but ultimately his inability to read Isabel's feelings presents him as somewhat dense. In short, the male characters are barely developed at all.

However, once I've resolved I'm reading a feminist narrative I'm struck by the line "[Madame Merle] knew how to think - an accomplishment rare in women..." (ch 19). How do we make sense of the narrator's condescending tone? What about the fact that James only seems interested in developing his female characters?

What about the fact that James only seems interested in developing his female characters.

From Wikipedia 'New Woman'.) 'The New Woman was a feminist ideal that emerged in the late nineteenth century and had a profound influence on feminism well into the twentieth. The term "New Woman" was popularized by British-American writer Henry James, to describe the growth in the number of feminist, educated, independent career women in Europe and the United States.'


The character traits of James' women show that he supported women’s rights and the 'working woman' but believed Victorian 'gentlemen' were not as good as they were described, which is perhaps exemplified by the large number of Victorian men resorting to prostitutes and the high incidence of syphilis. There is also the factor that James is thought to be a closet homosexual so might not have felt sufficient affinity towards men to enable him to describe their characters well

Some critics believe that James’s feminine affinity stemmed from James’s love for his cousin Minny, who fell to her death in Venice (perhaps a suicide). Minny was a independent woman, who was described as having 'precociousness, brashness, and independence of spirit.' James’s love for Minny may have caused him to model his female characters after her personality. Since Minny exemplified the image of the Victorian 'working woman,' it is argued that James’s female characters did too.

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Jeremy wrote: "..I enjoy the dry, witty banter, but I think sometimes it's so subtle that I probably read past some of it...."

I know that happens to me! Even though I have been distracted by other reading demands, such banter is part of why I am enjoying the re-reading done so far.

One exchange that comes to mind, not particularly subtle, is:

“The books?” he once said; “well, I don’t know much about the books. You must ask Ralph about that. I’ve always ascertained for myself—got my information in the natural form. I never asked many questions even; I just kept quiet and took notice. Of course I’ve had very good opportunities—better than what a young lady would naturally have. I’m of an inquisitive disposition, though you mightn’t think it if you were to watch me: however much you might watch me I should be watching you more. I’ve been watching these people for upwards of thirty-five years, and I don’t hesitate to say that I’ve acquired considerable information.

POAL, Chapter 6.

I adore the old gentleman's gentle rebuke and kindly attempt to teach Isabel, even while recognizing the different circumstances of a woman than were available to him as a very successful American expat banker in mid to late 1800's London.

I do note now that despite Mr. Touchett's claims to be observant, HJ/narrator does write of him:

At the end of his life he had become, on his own ground, as mellow as he was rich; he combined consummate shrewdness with the disposition superficially to fraternise, and his “social position,” on which he had never wasted a care, had the firm perfection of an unthumbed fruit. It was perhaps his want of imagination and of what is called the historic consciousness; but to many of the impressions usually made by English life upon the cultivated stranger his sense was completely closed. There were certain differences he had never perceived, certain habits he had never formed, certain obscurities he had never sounded. As regards these latter, on the day he had sounded them his son would have thought less well of him.

POAL, Chapter 5

In his gentle or not so gentle ways, HJ probes the misapprehensions of self.

Madge wrote: "There is also the factor that James is thought to be a closet homosexual so might not have felt sufficient affinity towards men to enable him to describe their characters well
"

If this is the case then that is a mark against James's writing. Female characters write convincing male characters and men write convincing female characters. Why couldn't a homosexual create a well written character of the opposite sex? If a straight author can't write about the opposite sex we consider it a flaw or limitation. Shouldn't the same standards apply to homosexual authors? Good writing is good writing regardless of gender or sexual orientation.

What about the narrator's comment that thinking was rare in women? How does that fit with James's feminist ideology?

Lily wrote: "I do note now that despite Mr. Touchett's claims to be observant, HJ/narrator does write of him:

At the end of his life he had become, on his own ground, as mellow as he was rich; he combined cons..."

Is James making a distinction between merely observing and truly understanding?

@Jeremy #11: As I understand it, there is a body of critical opinion (possibly homophobic) which sees James' closet homosexuality and dislike of overt masculinity as affecting the way he wrote about men and his 'sissiness' as leading him to appreciate women more. James Friel, when reviewing 'Henry James' Permanent Adolescence' by J R Bradley writes:

''James’s preference for female protagonists, his "sensitivity," his deep curiosity about "the situation of women," the relative lack of sexual regard in his creation of the female characters (cf. Dickens or Hardy, Flaubert or Tolstoy), his emotionally constricted male characters, and the more macho critics and rival writers’ dismissals of James as being a "spinsterish" writer, fussy and feminized in his style, subject matters and concerns; these have always allowed us to read Henry James as a homosexual writer. In his long life and after, it wasn’t just his brother who figured James for a "sissy."'

Lyndall Gordon suggests that it was 'guilt over his parasitic relationships with women that powers his work—as if his expressions became more opaque, his sentences more labyrinthine and his observations more tentative because he did not dare to write more clearly and so reveal himself.'

I suppose it is reasonable to assume that homosexuality can influence an author's perception of others just as heterosexuality can. Does any author, anyone, really get into the skin of another sex? Some just make a better fist of it than others.

Madge wrote: "Does any author, anyone, really get into the skin of another sex? ..."

Does any author, anyone, really get into the skin of even their own character, whether of their own sex or no?

Whenever a writer creates a character, he/she confronts the resources from which that character is constructed, whether self-knowledge, observation, a seeming unfolding from growth and plot, or other sources. (Having just attempted such this week, I am painfully aware of the effort. [g]) As we just finished Bleak House on another GR board recently, I had been struck by commentary that Esther is considered one of three autobiographical narrators among Dickens' books, the only female one. It is fascinating to consider his construction of that persona relative HJ's construction of Isabel. Trollope and Thackeray are among other male authors who do quite amazing things in their portrayals of female characters, let alone Tolstoy. I contrast HJ's portrayal of Ralph Touchett with that of Hans Castorp and other characters by Mann in The Magic Mountain. Ralph, with his stated penchant for linguistics, seems more aptly a candidate for academia than his father's business world, although his access to wealth and his health apparently kept him from either. (That kind of aristocratic life seems somewhat alien to a 21st century middle class mentality, with its assumptions of at least minimal professional occupation.) I know only a couple of works of Oscar Wilde, for whom the dire social and criminally prosecuted consequences of his sexual orientation are well known and probably had an impact on HJ, so I can't well comment on his character portrayals, just to consider a few of roughly HJ's era.

A passage that particularly struck me while reading was this one: (view spoiler)[

Her thoughts were a tangle of vague outlines which had never been corrected by the judgement of people speaking with authority. In matters of opinion she had had her own way, and it had led her into a thousand ridiculous zigzags. At moments she discovered she was grotesquely wrong, and then she treated herself to a week of passionate humility. After this she held her head higher than ever again; for it was of no use, she had an unquenchable desire to think well of herself. She had a theory that it was only under this provision life was worth living; that one should be one of the best, should be conscious of a fine organisation (she couldn’t help knowing her organisation was fine), should move in a realm of light, of natural wisdom, of happy impulse, of inspiration gracefully chronic. It was almost as unnecessary to cultivate doubt of one’s self as to cultivate doubt of one’s best friend: one should try to be one’s own best friend and to give one’s self, in this manner, distinguished company. The girl had a certain nobleness of imagination which rendered her a good many services and played her a great many tricks. She spent half her time in thinking of beauty and bravery and magnanimity; she had a fixed determination to regard the world as a place of brightness, of free expansion, of irresistible action: she held it must be detestable to be afraid or ashamed. She had an infinite hope that she should never do anything wrong. She had resented so strongly, after discovering them, her mere errors of feeling (the discovery always made her tremble as if she had escaped from a trap which might have caught her and smothered her) that the chance of inflicting a sensible injury upon another person, presented only as a contingency, caused her at moments to hold her breath. That always struck her as the worst thing that could happen to her. On the whole, reflectively, she was in no uncertainty about the things that were wrong. She had no love of their look, but when she fixed them hard she recognised them. It was wrong to be mean, to be jealous, to be false, to be cruel; she had seen very little of the evil of the world, but she had seen women who lied and who tried to hurt each other. Seeing such things had quickened her high spirit; it seemed indecent not to scorn them. Of course the danger of a high spirit was the danger of inconsistency—the danger of keeping up the flag after the place has surrendered; a sort of behaviour so crooked as to be almost a dishonour to the flag. But Isabel, who knew little of the sorts of artillery to which young women are exposed, flattered herself that such contradictions would never be noted in her own conduct. Her life should always be in harmony with the most pleasing impression she should produce; she would be what she appeared, and she would appear what she was. Sometimes she went so far as to wish that she might find herself some day in a difficult position, so that she should have the pleasure of being as heroic as the occasion demanded. Altogether, with her meagre knowledge, her inflated ideals, her confidence at once innocent and dogmatic, her temper at once exacting and indulgent, her mixture of curiosity and fastidiousness, of vivacity and indifference, her desire to look very well and to be if possible even better, her determination to see, to try, to know, her combination of the delicate, desultory, flame-like spirit and the eager and personal creature of conditions:

James, Henry (2011-02-07). Complete Works of Henry James (Illustrated) (Kindle Locations 34345-34368). Delphi Classics.

(hide spoiler)]

It felt difficult to imagine/intuit what represented observation of his cousin (viewed as an inspiration for Isabel) versus HJ's projection of some of his own views/experiences, or what were contrasts with broader social observations, and what were characteristics included for the story to be told. Other possible sources of inspiration that have been suggested include characters in the novels of Crane and Eliot.

@#11: In writing 'She knew how to think — an accomplishment rare in women' I think he was criticising the way women in those days were not encouraged to think, not that they couldn't do so.

@#14: Here is something about James' opinion of Oscar Wilde:-

http://www.mr-oscar-wilde.de/about/i_...

(I found his criticism of both An Ideal Husband and Lady Windermere's Fan amusing as these two satires have been popular in the UK from that day to this. The Ideal Husband has also been made into two popular films and a TV series.)

Oscar Wilde's trial and imprisonment had a bad effect on homosexuals in Europe and America and drove many (perhaps James) even deeper into their 'closets':(

Madge wrote: "In writing 'She knew how to think — an accomplishment rare in women' I think he was criticising the way women in those days were not encouraged to think, not that they couldn't do so."

I am inclined to agree with Madge. I think James is using "how to think" not so much to refer to a native skill as to refer to educated forms of analysis and logic. Men who studied at universities were given more tools to think with, and taught more disciplined ways of thinking, while women were taught needlework and dancing and how to serve tea. I took the comment about Madame Merle to mean that she had put more time and effort into thinking than was typical for women of her day, and thus achieved "an accomplishment rare in women."

@12Jeremy wrote: "...Is James making a distinction between merely observing and truly understanding? ..."

Probably. But HJ also revels in exploring (moral) self-deception.

(For passages being discussed, see @9&10.)

James was accused of being a snob by some of his countrymen. Do readers here see any sign of snobbery in PoaL?

Madge wrote: "James was accused of being a snob by some of his countrymen. Do readers here see any sign of snobbery in PoaL?"

Absolutely! The very structures of his sentences are hardly oriented to the general reader, let alone the convolutions of the ways he expresses his ideas. (Then there are other things as well, but will pass on those to others for the moment.) But, to some extent, I don't think he could help it. His mind seems to have just worked that way.

I have not read his brother's The Varieties of Religious Experience: A Study in Human Nature. It has long been on my tbr -- these days it would be fun to spend at least some time with it to compare the styles of the two brothers.

Mr Touchett (snr) told Isabel he acquired a lot of his information from observing others quietly. I see this trait in Ralph too. He asks his father to give Isabel half his inheritance so he can watch what happens as she goes "before the breeze". His father says "you speak as if it were for your mere amusement" and he replies "so it is, a good deal".

Madame Merle seems to have more to her past than she is prepared to discuss at present, although she and Isabel have talked for hours on almost all topics. Isabel seems totally enamoured with her and I am a little concerned what her long term influence might be - she certainly seems envious of Isabel's inheritance.

HelenUK: I think Isabel's meeting with Madame Merle is very ominous and James intends it to be so , as he writes in his Preface:

'....two cases of the rare chemistry, are the pages in which Isabel, coming into the drawing-room at Gardencourt, coming in from a wet walk or whatever, that rainy afternoon, finds Madame Merle in possession of the place, Madame Merle seated, all absorbed but all serene, at the piano,[Isabel] .....deeply recognises, in the striking of such an hour, in the presence there, among the gathering shades, of this personage, of whom a moment before she had never so much as heard, a turning-point in her life. It is dreadful to have too much, for any artistic demonstration, to dot one's i's and insist on one's intentions, and I am not eager to do it now; but the question here was that of producing the maximum of intensity with the minimum of strain.

I loved the remark by Mrs Luce in Chapter 20:

. "Paris is much less attractive than in the days of the Emperor; HE knew how to make a city pleasant," Mr. Luce had often remarked to Mrs. Touchett, who was quite of his own way of thinking and wished to know what one had crossed that odious Atlantic for but to get away from republics. "

It made me wonder how many Americans are now coming to England for the same reasons:)

I find the to and fro of conversation in PoaL very authentic. I don' t usually like dialogue in novels, preferring narrative, but James does it very well. The lively exchange between Henrietta and Isabel in Chapter XVII, when Isabel told her friend that she had refused Warburton, is very amusing. I laughed at Henrietta's assertion that Isabel would soon be proposed to again in Italy: "Oh, you'll be asked quick enough, once you get off on the Continent. Annie Climber was asked three times in Italy—poor plain little Annie." and wondered if young ladies also got their bottoms pinched in those days:)

James was a great admirer of George Eliot and I was reminded of the provincial Dorothea's visit to Italy in Middlemarch and the art gallery where she met Ladislaw. Does James have something similar in mind for Isabel?

Americans in the second half of the 18thC had taken up the old European tradition of The Grand Tour. To quote Wikipedia:

'The primary value of the Grand Tour, it was believed, lay in the exposure both to the cultural legacy of classical antiquity and the Renaissance, and to the aristocratic and fashionably polite society of the European continent. In addition, it provided the only opportunity to view specific works of art, and possibly the only chance to hear certain music. A grand tour could last from several months to several years........The Grand Tour had more than superficial cultural importance; as E. P. Thompson [the British social historian] stated, "ruling-class control in the 18th century was located primarily in a cultural hegemony, and only secondarily in an expression of economic or physical (military) power."'

James uses the theme of The Grand Tour in several of his novels. In the American he describes Christopher Newman, lounging in The Louvre, as having 'an aesthetic headache' and as being 'the great Western Barbarian stepping forth in his innocence and might, gazing a while at this poor effete Old World and then swooping down on it.' On his own Grand Tour, when visiting Naples and Pompeii, James took a dislike to 'the hideous heritage of the past – & felt for a moment as if I should like to devote my life to laying railroads & erecting blocks of stores on the most classic & romantic sites.' which was very American and perhaps more Goodwood than Warburton:) (I felt like that on the narrow medieval streets of Florence, hemmed in by tourists on a hot June day...)

I look forward to Isabel's Grand Tour and her ' New Woman' reactions. Will James project his own or give her a different perspective?

Madge wrote: "I think Isabel's meeting with Madame Merle is very ominous and James intends it to be so ..."

By the end of Chapter 19 I felt as though I'd strolled into a drawing-room and found a wolf gracefully curled up on the sofa. The long and detailed description of Mme Merle is full of ambiguities and contradictions. She arrives in the house as death approaches, but seems totally unconcerned with Mr Touchett's state. Although the doctor suggests she might usefully stay to comfort her supposed friend Mrs Touchett, she disappears again before Mr T's death. Isabel is attracted by her easy charm, her accomplishments and the sense that she has experienced life and "knows how to feel": all things that Isabel would like to achieve herself. However, Mme Merle gets no joy from her skill on the piano or painting, saying in bitterness, "what have my talents brought me?" For her, art needs to earn its keep. She states that feeling is in the past for her, and certainly it is not so clear that she knows how to feel as rather that she knows what to say.

But much of what she says is not pleasant. She is dismissive of Mrs Touchett, and breath-takingly nasty about Ralph, saying "fortunately he has a consumption... it gives him something to do," a remark that strikes me as absolutely poisonous. Her airy description of Americans in Europe as "mere parasites crawling over the surface" is a strange and dark analogy. She compartmentalises people: "I like to talk to younger people," she says, and "there are some old people I adore" - not the remarks of someone who knows how to think. "Let's talk about you," she says to Isabel, - and then spends the next 3 pages talking about herself and Gilbert Osmond (who from the sound of him may have been her model of an American parasite.)

But worst of all is her reaction (in Chapter 20) to learning of Isabel's inheritance. "Ah, the clever creature!" she cries to Mrs Touchett. This is not spontaneous; it's after a moment's thought and undoubtedly designed to set Mrs Touchett against Isabel. Luckily Mrs T is more clear-sighted than that, and Mme Merle has to rephrase her remark to make it more innocuous. But she herself is the very opposite of innocuous. I wonder how much truth there is in her own description of herself as a chipped and cracked pot that is cleverly mended - "but when I've to come out into a strong light - then, my dear, I'm a horror!"

Some great observations Emma, thanks! Mme M is a horror indeed.

Madge wrote: "I find the to and fro of conversation in PoaL very authentic. I don' t usually like dialogue in novels, preferring narrative, but James does it very well. The lively exchange between Henrietta and..."

Interesting, I almost always find dialogue the most appealing part of novels (if it's well done of course, not too artificial). Those are the parts of the book that read most quickly and often that I most remember.

Robin wrote: "Madge wrote: "I find the to and fro of conversation in PoaL very authentic. I don' t usually like dialogue in novels, preferring narrative, but James does it very well. The lively exchange between..."

Interesting, I almost always find dialogue the most appealing part of novels (if it's well done of course, not too artificial)...

Although James was never particularly successful as a playwright (which he apparently desired to be), critics suggest his playwright efforts enhanced the quality of the dialogue in his novels. So you are affirming it shows....

Robin wrote: "Madge wrote: "I find the to and fro of conversation in PoaL very authentic. I don' t usually like dialogue in novels, preferring narrative, but James does it very well. The lively exchange between..."

I agree. I think the reason I feel lukewarm about the novel is the heavy use of narrative. Dialogue tends to quicken the pace, which would be great with this work because too often I feel like I'm trudging through mud as I labor through James's prose.

His narrative is somewhat convoluted. My idea of good narrative is Hardy; those lyrical descriptive passages of the countryside and people interspersed with a little conversation.

Jeremy wrote: "...I feel like I'm trudging through mud as I labor through James's prose. ..."

Madge: "His narrative is somewhat convoluted."

-- Madge, are you given to understatement this morning?

Jeremy -- on a second read, I am sort of approaching PoaL as if it were Apuleius being read! Looking for the humor and the sex is really lightening up good ole HJ! Just think of all the mind game gymnastics that would be lost if HJ wrote in a different day/age/culture!

Yes, HJ's courtship of this reader does continue. ;-)

LOL. I was being kind ' cos he is a Yank and his English is bound to be peculiar:):)

That is an absolutely brilliant review by James Wood of Gorra's Portrait of a Novel about PoaL which you have just posted on the Background thread. If folks don't mind Spoilers or they have read the book, I urge them to read it.