Victorians! discussion

"Agnes Grey is the debut novel of English author Anne Brontë, first published in December 1847, and republished in a second edition in 1850. The novel follows Agnes Grey, a governess, as she works within families of the English gentry. Scholarship and comments by Anne's sister Charlotte Brontë suggest the novel is largely based on Anne Brontë's own experiences as a governess for five years. Like her sister Charlotte's novel Jane Eyre, it addresses what the precarious position of governess entailed and how it affected a young woman.

The choice of central character allows Anne to deal with issues of oppression and abuse of women and governesses, isolation and ideas of empathy. An additional theme is the fair treatment of animals. Agnes Grey also mimics some of the stylistic approaches of bildungsromans, employing ideas of personal growth and coming to age, but representing a character who in fact does not gain in virtue.

The Irish novelist George Moore praised Agnes Grey as "the most perfect prose narrative in English letters,"and went so far as to compare Anne's prose to that of Jane Austen. Modern critics have made more subdued claims admiring Agnes Grey with a less overt praise of Brontë's work than Moore."

(Thank you, Wikipedia)


In this first section of the novel, we discover Agnes and her family shortly after they have fallen into misfortune. And in order to contribute to the family finances....

"‘I should like to be a governess.’

My mother uttered an exclamation of surprise, and laughed. My sister dropped her work in astonishment, exclaiming, ‘You a governess, Agnes! What can you be dreaming of?’"

What qualities do you think Agnes might have to make her a good governess, or at least think she would make one?

Agnes then takes up her first post with the Bloomfield family at Wellwood.How well do you think she responds to the challenges laid before her?

The book Agnes Grey also illustrates the failure of the nuclear family; exposing the fragility and hypocrisy of the Victorian family. Women were not supposed to be educated, yet responsible for educating their children while being treated like children themselves.

Agnes was so coddled in her family that while she might have been capable of many things, she was not allowed to do them. She brings a knowledge of rare teachings, i.e. Latin, yet is completely naive about human nature.

For me, the acceptance of cruelty in the Bloomfield house was very disconcerting. They are cruel to each other, and allow the children to run wild. Agnes is stuck in a no win position as she is expected to control the children while having no authority to do. Disfunction is alive and well in this family. Agnes' behavior in trying to control the children would be deemed abusive today, yet wasn't enough to make a difference. One has to ask the question why? Is it due to the lack of authority only? Her inexperience? A bit of both?

"How delightful ... To get out into the world; to enter upon a new life; to act for myself."

The world of Agnes is very confined. Even in the best of times, the life of a female in her social position was limited. When Agnes wants to "get out into the world" we must remember Wellwood is not a great distance away from her home. Her desire to "get out into the world" is motivated both by her desire to assist her family and to explore the world, which is, in fact, just beyond the horizon of her present home.

I feel sorry for Agnes. She is young, impressionable and concerned for her family's well being. She sets off to Wellwood to work for the Bloomfield family with ther best of intentions, but on a "gloomy" day. Wellwood ... Bloomfield. How ironic are those words as Agnes will find out. The "gloomy" day suggests that her immediate future will be neither well nor too full of blooms or fields.

I'm not very far in, but it's obvious, at least at this stage, that Agnes is totally unsuited to being a governess. To let the children boss her around that way is completely irresponsible and will do them no favors in the long run.

It's my understanding that several, if not all, of the Bronte sisters went out at one time or another to be governesses, but that none of them were successful at it. So it's quite possible that these first chapters are considerably autobiographical.

Deborah wrote: "Agnes' behavior in trying to control the children would be deemed abusive today, yet wasn't enough to make a difference. "

Maybe you're referring to passages past the point I have read so far, but I can't see anything abusive in her control attempts. She is prohibited from using a switch or striking the children, which we would consider abusive but her contemporaries would not have.

As to Tom, she says "my only resource was to throw him on his back and hold his hands and feet till the frenzy was somewhat abated." That's hardly abusive, is it? I suppose "throw" could be, but I doubt that she did it in a harmful manner, and probably onto a bed or couch or chair. She would "run after my pupils to catch them, to carry or drag them to the table, and often forcibly to hold them there till the lesson was done," but again, is that really abusive? It would have been more abusive, IMO, for her to let them get away with refusing to go to the table and do any lessons at all.

I suppose that when she says "Sometimes, exasperated to the utmost pitch, I would shake her violently by the shoulder, or pull her long hair," that could be considered abusive, if that's what you're referring to, but overall I don't see her behavior as abusive, but generally quite the contrary.

But of course she brought it all on herself by not being strict at the very beginning and setting down clear rules and expectations. Rather, she let the children run her hither and yon, and from that point on she was lost.

Everyman wrote: "Deborah wrote: "Agnes' behavior in trying to control the children would be deemed abusive today, yet wasn't enough to make a difference. "

Maybe you're referring to passages past the point I have ..."

Everyman - I was referring to the passage which indicated she had tied one of the children to a chair in order to control them. In addition, the hair pulling, for me, is abusive and a sign that the adult has lost control. Granted, she didn't have control nor the authority to have control. I was just saying through modern eyes, these acts would be considered abusive.

Deborah wrote: "Granted, she didn't have control nor the authority to have control. I was just saying through modern eyes, these acts would be considered abusive. "

Yes, I agree that those actions were abusive, but overall I think she was the abused, not the abuser.

Bharathi wrote: "I agree that Agnes is certainly not the right person to be a governess. She has no experience whatsoever. Also, at home she is considered a child herself. Also she has lived in a secluded family ..."

I agree. Agnes was perhaps not very well suited to be a governess but she was well-intentioned in her wishes to help her family in a time of need.

The double tension of the first chapters is Agnes in a situation that she was not fully prepared for with children who no one could possibly have prepared for either. The parents cannot see what are the clear facts of their own childrens' behaviour. This adds yet another level of difficulty that Agnes cannot deal with in the home.

Deborah wrote: "Everyman wrote: "I was referring to the passage which indicated she had tied one of the children to a chair in order to control them. "

Did she actually tie the child down? I thought she held it?

I found the issue of how to control the children very interesting. I think there is a whole theme of her naivety (is that spelt correctly?!),she presumes the children will echo her behaviour as a youngster and also have some attachment to her so care whether she is angry and want to earn her praise. The fact that they have no respect for her and that she is continually undermined by people the children possibly do respect such as their parents and uncle makes it incredibly difficult for her.
I think Everyman is perhaps a little harsh on her saying she lets the children have their own way too much. On the first meeting with no knowledge of their character and her inexperience it is not unnatural to indulge them. As she gets to know them she is crippled by the fact that when she tries to discipline them the parents undermine her and disapprove and when they run riot she is blamed for it rather than the children.

From the writing, it seems clear that Bronte expects the reader to have sympathy with the fact that she can't use corporeal punishment. With my modern sensibilities I found the idea of a nursery nurse hitting her charges uncertain. But with the older children I thought of some teacher friends who have a lot of trouble with the wilder children as they are not allowed to touch them and the children and the type of parents who complain about any threat made against their darlings can be left in charge.

Peter wrote: "Wellwood ... Bloomfield. How ironic are those words as Agnes will find out. The "gloomy" day suggests that her immediate future will be neither well nor too full of blooms or fields."

That's a really good point, Peter. The inclusion of "blooming" in particular perhaps also indicates Brontë's intention for AG to be her Bildungsroman , or coming-of-age novel. This would be an interesting point to discuss again as we get towards the end of the book. How much blooming takes place - and by whom?

Cruelty seems to be a theme everyone has picked up on in this section of the novel, and I think we'll find it continues.

How did you all react to the birds' nest scene in chapter 5? If this is symbolism, is mighty heavy!

Pip wrote: "Peter wrote: "Wellwood ... Bloomfield. How ironic are those words as Agnes will find out. The "gloomy" day suggests that her immediate future will be neither well nor too full of blooms or fields."..."

Pip

It will be interesting to look back on this novel and discuss the success/stumblings of the images and symbols. This book at times seems somewhat "heavy handed" so far, but we will see ...

Pip wrote: "Cruelty seems to be a theme everyone has picked up on in this section of the novel, and I think we'll find it continues."

I found it interesting that although Agnes is generally very quiet, one of the things she does speak out about is the treatment of animals, quoting the bible to reinforce and strengthen her beliefs. In modern novels the torturing of animals such as the children enjoy would be a clear and perhaps cliched indicator of a psychopathic and dangerous nature.
I wonder how Victorians would view it, would it be boisterous high spirits or a sign of a degenerate uncontrolled nature?
For anyone else interested in the social background, I found this piece quite interesting:
http://thevictorianist.blogspot.co.uk...
which gives an overview of the formation of the RSPCA in the first half of the nineteenth century. The first parliamentary acts against cruelty to animals I think were about the treatment of cattle in 1822, and then was expanded to include other animals in the 1830s.

Everyman wrote: "It's my understanding that several, if not all, of the Bronte sisters went out at one time or another to be governesses, but that none of them were successful at it. So it's quite possible that these first chapters are considerably autobiographical. "

Someone else might be able to correct me, but I believe that she started writing this while she was still employed as a governess, and that she went for her first position when she was 19, which I think is around Agnes' age, and like Agnes her first position did not last long and she was soon back home again.

It does seem sad that so many intelligent women were so limited in the options available to them and forced to do work that was clearly unsuitable. But we were obviously lucky that some women and men of this time were able to start thinking beyond societal constraints and began the move towards equality.

Clari wrote: "Someone else might be able to correct me, but I believe that she started writing this while she was still employed as a governess, and that she went for her first position when she was 19, which I think is around Agnes' age, and like Agnes her first position did not last long and she was soon back home again."

Yes, according to the Oxford Companion to English Literature, she did go out as a governess at 19, but didn't last long. It doesn't say whether she went back home, but she did go back out as a governess two years later.

It is sad that she died at only 29, with only two books published. But several critical sources I have looked at contend that she was the least talented of the Bronte sisters, and that he works only continued to be read because she was one of the Bronte sisters. As to that, our reading of the full novel may inform us.

Can I just ask how many of the participants so far in this discussion have read The Tenant of Wildfell Hall (Anne's only other novel) and/or Jane Eyre (Charlotte B, and perhaps the most famous "governess novel")?

I know JE pretty well, and am currently reading Tenant. I'm asking because there might be some interesting comparisons to make - but obviously I want to avoid spoilers.

@ Clari - thank you very much for the fascinating link. I'd never heard of Vic Veggies before :-)

Pip wrote: "Can I just ask how many of the participants so far in this discussion have read The Tenant of Wildfell Hall (Anne's only other novel) and/or Jane Eyre (Charlotte B, and p..."

Pip, I've read Tenant of Wildfell Hall and am now listening to it on audiobook. I've also read Jane Eyre a number of times. Comparisons are interesting. What did you have in mind?

I found all the bird scenes extremely disturbing. Anne and Emily were united in their love for animals and believed the way a person treated them was a definite indicator of character. I so admired Agnes' strength when it came to protecting the birds and preventing their suffering. Agnes is at her strongest and most vocal when it comes to protecting animals. I wish she would stand up for herself as well as she does for the innocent creatures in her stories.

Everyman wrote: "Deborah wrote: "Granted, she didn't have control nor the authority to have control. I was just saying through modern eyes, these acts would be considered abusive. "

Yes, I agree that those actions..."

It never occurred to me that Agnes was being abusive. I've read it twice (once on Audiobook with the wonderful narrator Emilia Fox) and her behavior never struck me that way. I thought the children deserved to be flogged! They were absolutely maddening little monsters. Her self-control was remarkable. I know this isn't very PC, but its how I felt and it shows how successful Anne Bronte was in describing the children and situation. She definitely evoked a strong emotional reaction in me.

Gea wrote: "It never occurred to me that Agnes was being abusive."

I don't think she was by the standards of the time. The original comment was that we would today consider some of her discipline methods abusive.

Pip wrote: "Can I just ask how many of the participants so far in this discussion have read The Tenant of Wildfell Hall (Anne's only other novel) and/or Jane Eyre (Charlotte B, and p..."

Pip
I am a huge fan of Jane Eyre but must confess to having only a foggy distant memory of The Tenant..

I would be very happy to discuss the books at the end of our reading of AG.

Gea wrote: "Pip wrote: "Can I just ask how many of the participants so far in this discussion have read The Tenant of Wildfell Hall (Anne's only other novel) and/or Jane Eyre (Charlo..."

The "bird nest" passage is an interesting one. I stand on the side of Agnes' decision. The children were horrid. Agnes' action shows compassion for the nestlings in the long run. From the point of view of the 1840's, the concerns of corporal punishment are different from today. Agnes's defense of the nestlings suffering prolonged pain creates an interesting comparison to the continued stress and mental anguish Agnes suffers from the children. Perhaps by "protecting" the birds Agnes was enacting a symbolic saving of herself and the pain she has inflicted on herself by the children.

I was shocked by the birds' nest scene and the fact that Agnes had the strength to go through with her threat to put the birds out of their prospective misery, and in such a way. On the other hand, she is clearly motivated by a (for me) exaggerated sense of right and wrong which borders on the puritanical.
I'd need to go back and check, but I think that ever since becoming a governess despite her family's opposition, it's the first decisive action she has taken - or perhaps has been able to take. She isn't allowed to control her human charges, but at least she can finally act in the way she deems best as far as the birds are concerned.

Being a governess was not an easy task, I mean, not at all. Women in the XIX and even the XX century working as governesses met with great obstacles. For instance, a governess was not highly estimated in society and maybe this thought was somehow transmitted from parents to children and therefore it was natural that a pupil would treat his governess with a mixture of contempt and defiance. Of course an experienced governess would be able to make her authority clear. However, that does not mean it would be comfortable or agreeable to have to work in such a restraining atmosphere. In this case, Agnes had to deal with really neglected kids whose hypocrites and double standard parents dared to blame on Agnes the consequences of their own mistakes. I mean, she had been with them only a couple of months and suddenly she is responsible for their entire lack of education and respect?

Rut wrote: "In this case, Agnes had to deal with really neglected kids whose hypocrites and double standard parents dared to blame on Agnes the consequences of their own mistakes. I mean, she had been with them only a couple of months and suddenly she is responsible for their entire lack of education and respect? "

My daughters teach at a small elementary school. I can assure you that there are a number of parents today who are indistinguishable in that aspect from the Bloomfields.

Everyman wrote: "Rut wrote: "In this case, Agnes had to deal with really neglected kids whose hypocrites and double standard parents dared to blame on Agnes the consequences of their own mistakes. I mean, she had b..."

I understand. I agree with you, I know you are right, I teach in an elementary school myself. I guess, poor parenting skills is still a sad existing problem in our society too. The difference between Agnes and a contemporary teacher is that this job is not as underrated anymore, I think it is better valued at this time than it used to be. I really feel sorry for Agnes! She did not know what she was getting into and yet she was so hopeful in the beginning! and (as some may say) very naïve, too. But really, that enthusiasm is characteristic of a beginner, it is part of incorporating to professional life. That is why I am enjoying this book very much, I think Agnes’s story is just like the story of many of us and how we came to face reality after jumping out of our comfort zone to step into adulthood. I cannot wait to see what became of her!

Everyman wrote: "Rut wrote: "In this case, Agnes had to deal with really neglected kids whose hypocrites and double standard parents dared to blame on Agnes the consequences of their own mistakes. I mean, she had b..."

I see that 'not my fault, your fault' frequently in the youth of today. That is indicative of how parents have raised their children - no discipline or consequences for their behaviour, strongly accompanied by no failure.

Throwing Tom on his back and restraining him is not very much different to the modern day practice of dealing with a child having a temper tantrum, dragging it to the naughty step and making it stay there until it stops performing - often multiple times and can go on for a considerable duration. Yes, they only sit on the naughty step for one minute per year of age once they stop misbehaving, but it can be considerably longer before it gets to that stage. Often with a small child they don't even remember what they were performing over when the apology is being extracted - modern day abuse?!

You can't expect the children to show Agnes respect when the parents don't - best teacher is example.

Gea wrote: I thought the children deserved to be flogged! They were absolutely maddening little monsters. Her self-control was remarkable. I know this isn't very PC, but its how I felt and it shows how successful Anne Bronte was in describing the children and situation"...

The passages about the children had that effect on me too! I am totally sympathetic to Agnes and in disbelief at how awful and uncaring all the adults in the house were, particularly the parents. I believe Agnes did the best she could with the limited resources she was allowed to utilise. I sincerely hope her next position is better.

I haven't read Tenants and have only read parts of Jane Eyre, although I've seen a couple of TV adaptations. I'm not worried about spoiler for the other novels and would welcome reading comparative discussion as the novel progresses.

Helen_in_the_uk wrote: "Gea wrote: I thought the children deserved to be flogged! They were absolutely maddening little monsters. Her self-control was remarkable. I know this isn't very PC, but its how I felt and it shows..."
I'm also very sympathetic towards Agnes - I've taught children that have behaved like that before, and no matter how good or seasoned a teacher you are it's absolutely maddening. The problem is that the parents show her no respect, and so the children see that and don't respect her either.
I agree with what others have said - perhaps she didn't quite know what she was getting into, and her world did seem very confined before she went out into the world, but even so there are some children and parents who are just plain difficult.

Ella's Gran wrote: "You can't expect the children to show Agnes respect when the parents don't - best teacher is example. "

As usual, you bring things to a simple and direct (and correct, IMO) point.

Thank you Everyman. Comes from age, experience, and a wise Mother! Doesn't always win me favour with modern parents however!

Everyman wrote: "But several critical sources I have looked at contend that she was the least talented of the Bronte sisters, and that he works only continued to be read because she was one of the Bronte sisters. As to that, our reading of the full novel may inform us."

Out of interest, which critics have you been looking at, Everyman?
I think she is generally the least popular of the three sisters, but personally I think her work does still stand up within the breadth of the Victorian canon.

On another point, is there a general consensus that Agnes should have been able to use corporeal punishment against the children? If so, is it because of Bronte's writing of the characters or just people's real life experience that some kids need more than the naughty step!
Thinking about these early chapters some more, I believe that the thing that might have helped her most as a governess is the support of the family. They seem like the type of children that would have got revenge on Agnes if she was able to cane them.

Clari wrote: "Out of interest, which critics have you been looking at, Everyman?."

One specifically was the Encyclopedia Britannica 11th; can't remember specifically which other ones I got this from.

BTW, I did check John Sutherland, who didn't say it, but did say some thing interesting, that Anne was the best governess of the three sisters.

Well Agnes starts out full of hope and enthusiasm - like all youngsters who think they can change the world and will live and be young forever. She wants new experience, be independent, have a life other than the pre-destined path (marry and marry well, before the family loses money i.e.) - she may have even thought that handling kids would be a piece of cake. And with free food and lodgings, it would be easy money for someone of her age. Like all 19-year olds from that era, she may have even led herself to believe (whether expressed or not) that she will find more prospects if she 'went out there in the world'.

What matters in the end is how we deal with the problems we face in life - and this is EXACTLY what Agnes also discovers - she has to work harder at the kids, she has to find what is right/wrong, she has to TRY because that is all what anyone can ultimately do in a any case - try.

Austen's writings are an inspiration for me, and this is the first time I'm reading Bronte's Grey - I must say it is an interesting experience.

Everyman wrote: "BTW, I did check John Sutherland, who didn't say it, but did say some thing interesting, that Anne was the best governess of the three sisters.
"

That is an interesting idea seeing the struggles young Agnes has in these first chapters. Maybe Sutherland thought so because Anne kept in touch with the daughters from her second governess job and I think only left because of her brother's (who was teaching the son of the house) affair. I wonder if the next section will reflect some of Anne's growth as a governess?


If I remember rightly Charlotte and Emily had some ideas about setting up a school which never came to anything. But perhaps it was something they did because their options were limited rather than feeling any vocation for teaching.

The incident concerning the birds, I found shocking. It was obvious that Agnes was sickened at what she was about to do, but her courage held out and at least those little nestlings were saved from a life of torture.

I have read Jane Eyre but not The Tenant. A comparison would be interesting.

As others have said, poor Agnes's hands were tied. What was she to do?! I hope that things become easier for her.

Hilary wrote: "The incident concerning the birds, I found shocking. It was obvious that Agnes was sickened at what she was about to do, but her courage held out and at least those little nestlings were saved fro..."

For someone to love animals as much as Agnes does, and to be as quiet as she seems, to be so resolute to instantly kill the birds to stop them being tortured is, I think, her strongest moment in this part of the novel.

I totally agree, Clari.

Like so much of the novel, the bird incident was apparently based on a real event in Anne's life.
I've literally just read that somewhere, and I've gone and lost the source :-(

That's fascinating, Pip, that it was based on a real-life event. Poor Anne!

Clari wrote: "Hilary wrote: "The incident concerning the birds, I found shocking. It was obvious that Agnes was sickened at what she was about to do, but her courage held out and at least those little nestlings..."

I agree too, Clari!