The History Book Club discussion

This week's reading assignment is:


Week 5 - October 20th - October 26th -> Chapter Five - Fame Is the Spur (108 - 149)

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Vicki Cline will be moderating this discussion.

Welcome,

Vicki and Bryan

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS, SELECT VIEW ALL

by Tom Holland

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

Here is the link to the thread titled Mechanics of the Board which will help you with the citations and how to do them.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

Glossary
Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

Bibliography

Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD

Chapter Overview and Summaries


5. Fame Is the Spur

Gaius Julius Caesar was born in the month of Quintilus (later renamed July, after him) in 100 BC. The Julii were a venerable patrician family, supposedly descended from Rome’s founder Aeneas and the goddess Venus. There had been few consuls in the family in recent generations, and Caesar’s father only reached the post of praetor and governor of Asia province before dying when Caesar was only 16. His aunt Julia was married to Marius, and young Gaius was betrothed to the daughter of Cinna, Marius’ co-consul. This was definitely a disadvantage when Sulla defeated the Marians, and Sulla demanded that Caesar break off the engagement. Caesar refused and was probably saved from proscription only because his mother Aurelia’s family, the Cottas, were influential with Sulla. Caesar decided to pursue a military career in Asia (far from Sulla) and persuaded Nicomedes, the king of Bithynia, to loan Rome a fleet of ships. The gossip was that he did this by becoming Nicomedes’ catamite. He also distinguished himself in the siege of Mytilene by saving several Roman citizens in battle, thus winning the civic crown. He only returned to Rome once Sulla was safely dead.

Marcus Tullius Cicero was a nobody from the countryside, just like Marius. He had been sent to Rome for schooling as a boy and stood out among the other boys for his skill in rhetoric. He became famous for his defense of Sextus Roscius, who was accused of parricide, which had a particularly gruesome penalty if you were found guilty. He then studied in Greece and Rhodes and returned to Rome to be elected quaestor at the age of 30, giving him entrance to the Senate. His duties as quaestor kept him in Sicily for a year, and when he returned, he went back to defending people in the courts very successfully. His next famous case was prosecuting Gaius Verres, a former governor of Sicily, who had looted the place of valuable art and treated the people there horribly, even crucifying some. Even though Cicero was up against the foremost lawyer of his day, Hortensius, he won hands down and his reputation was assured.

Pompey was a superstar, getting Sulla to grant him a triumph even though he wasn’t even in the Senate. This grated on Crassus, who also wanted to be famous. His chance came when some gladiators in Capua escaped, killing their owner and collecting even more slaves and rampaging through the countryside. The Senate sent some 3,000 troops after them, but they were wiped out. Pompey was in Spain trying to defeat Sertorius, the last Marian general, who was trying to set up an alternate government to Rome. With Pompey out of the country, Crassus seized the opportunity to become famous by putting down the slave revolt which was led by a Thracian named Spartacus. Crassus finally herded the slave army into the bottom of Italy’s boot, and pretty much finished them off. But Pompey came back from Spain in the nick of time to wipe out some who had escaped from Crassus, thus getting the lion’s share of the credit. In the next year they became co-consuls, but didn’t get along.

It was interesting reading about Julius Caesar's childhood -- and childhood in general in ancient Rome -- but my vague reading was that our current view of childhood as a separate stage of life for playing and exploring is a fairly modern concept, and while it is good to be reminded how childhood back then was very different from how childhood is now, I would have liked a better sense of how childhood in Republican Rome differed from other contemporary cultures. The few indications given (not as many toys) weren't terribly enlightening.

I thought the child rearing part was interesting, too. I don't know much about it at all, so it was informative. It was a different world where they do toughen up their kids. I didn't appreciate it how patriarchal it was.

I am amazed how hard it is to write history in a time that there were very few original sources. Tough.

I'm not even sure how credible the sources we have are. Are Plutarch and Cicero reliable? Were they present for the things they wrote about, or are reliable historians being stymied by unreliable sources? How would we ever know which parts are true, which are best guesses, and which is just political spin?

Matthew wrote: "I'm not even sure how credible the sources we have are. Are Plutarch and Cicero reliable? Were they present for the things they wrote about, or are reliable historians being stymied by unreliable s..."

Well, Cicero was present for much of what he wrote about, and a lot of what we know about life in Rome during his time comes from his letters to his friends, where he sort of lets down his hair and says what he really thinks, in particular about how great he thinks he himself is.

As for Plutarch, while he wasn't present during the lifetimes of the men he wrote about, having died in 120 AD, he most likely had contemporary source material which was subsequently lost.

I was disappointed that Holland didn't include the story about Caesar being captured by pirates. It happened when he was about 25 and was on his way to Rhodes to study rhetoric. The pirates wanted a ransom of 20 talents, but he laughed and said he was worth 50. While the ransom was being gathered, he treated the pirates as though they were his servants, told them to be quiet when he wanted to sleep, and vowed to hunt them down and have them all crucified when he was released. Apparently they thought this was really funny. In fact, he did just that, although he had their throats cut before crucifying them to save them from suffering.

Yet just run your finger down the list of endnotes and you see citations and quotes from a dozen different sources, some reliable and some not. Is the story firsthand knowledge, a tip from Deep Throat, or a political enemy claiming that an opponent devours the blood of babies.

There is enough horror and gore here, that while we have to assume -- I guess -- that this is how it was, I wouldn't be surprised if any single bit of it turned out to be false demonizing by someone with an ax to grind.

Vicki -- the pirate story is in the next chapter, contrasted with Clodius's two-talent insult-ransom.

Thanks, Matthew, I'm glad to see he didn't neglect such a juicy story.

I appreciate how the author mentioned that the word "actor" was meant for both a stage performer and a prosecutor. It still could be argued this way in modern times, or at least, feels that way at times.

Bryan wrote: "I appreciate how the author mentioned that the word "actor" was meant for both a stage performer and a prosecutor. It still could be argued this way in modern times, or at least, feels that way at..."

What was really funny was that stage actors would come and watch Hortensius in order to imitate his performances. One wonders if lawyers ever imitated actors' gestures.

I have finally caught up my reading with the group. I am quite enjoying the book so far. I haven't read much on Roman history, so this is quite interesting. I agree that we need to be skeptical of the sources of the time period, but we have to work with what is there.

It's funny. I just recently finished a book called Fame Junkies: The Hidden Truths Behind America's Favorite Addiction. I'd say actors and other entertainers the most revered people in American society today. Meanwhile, everyone hates politicians.

But since fame and glory are the spur then as now, I actually think the present is better. Fame Junkies describe the disgusting process of how kids become child actors, but at least it's not a bloodbath like the Romans were willing to commit to grab their place in the spotlight!

by Jake Halpern