Project Mayhem discussion

Sitting here in class wondering what you guys think about Christmas? What do you or WILL you tell your children? Did you grow up believing in Santa Claus? What was it like to find out the trooth about that and other fairy tales? Do you think there are other reasons besides religion and tradition that people tell their kids outright lies? Why is it that most people don't relate their parents' deception to other things like God? Can you tell I'm a little bored, lol?

im not sure about the santa clause thing, but you did touch on an interesting subject of stories. ive been doing a lot of reading on sufism, in which many of the teachings are passed via stories. the arabian nights, for example. many non-literate cultures used stories (fairy tales, if you must) to educate (aesop is one we are all probably familiar with) . i think our culture (western, "modern", whatever you want to call it) has a habit of mistaking fact for truth. is it a fact that some old man will show up at night and reward you, but only if your good? no. but is it true that we as people should always look out for each other? be honest and helpful? is the story of santa a functional way to convey this idea of social responsibility to children? thats more of a personal choice, but i will say that the only time i feel comfortable lying is doing it in order to teach someone.

For as long as I can remember, I've never believed in anything like Santa. Then again, I think it's just a part of my DNA to be a non believer. ;) I DO however let me kids believe in such things, and I think it's for the same reason most other parents do...there is almost nothing better in the world then seeing your children wake up to presents they believe Santa brought them on Xmas morning. I think most kids figure out Santa and the like aren't real before parents have to break it to them anyway, so I don't really worry about that. I also agree with Burkey on the fact that these fairy tales teach certain morals.

It seems that using a lie (as in, "This is true, it really happened, honest!") to teach a moral seems dishonest; a moral lesson in and of itself.

What I find especially disconcerting about Santa is the public reinforcement - like NORAD "tracking Santa".

I also think it's a bit twisted to get off on your kid's reaction to something fantastic. These seems manipulative and belittling. Children are not playthings. Play with them, fine, but "there is almost nothing better in the world then seeing your children wake up to presents they believe Santa brought them on Xmas morning" strikes me as just twisted.

I mean, lets just remove the culturally accepted norms from it and re-read it: I enjoy when my children are shocked by a lie I told them was true.

or

I deceive my children because their reaction gives me joy.

I'm sure that sounds harsher than I intend it to sound, and I appologize a little I guess, but, am I wrong? Would you mind reducing your joy so that your kids don't have to live in a fantasy world? I think that'd be great!

As for my kid; her mother INSISTS that I not break the spell so I just don't reinforce it. Santa brings her presents at mommy's house, daddy brings her presents at daddy's house. I assure you, the pleasure I derive from her joy seems quite similar to the pleasure her mother derives from her joy. And in my house, she's happy with the presents her DADDY bought her, not some mythical figure.

If that's the case, then most of the world must be just as twisted as I. Little kids believe in many things that aren't real, whether we put the idea there or not. Mine insist on monsters being real, and I don't reinforce that at all. Kids have HUGE imaginations and I think taking away anything mythical from them dampers that imagination. I do anything I can to make my kids happy, and if believing that Santa brought them gifts makes them that way, so be it. It's not "getting off" on my children's joy, it's knowing that you're doing something right when you see your kids eye's light up. I don't see how that can be using my kids like "playthings". You're SUPPOSED to be happy about your kids being happy, you're supposed to encourage their imaginations. With no Santa, I think kids would be missing out. Is it really that much better for a child to get presents once a year just because that holiday calls for them?

Wow Rob, you took the words right out of my mouth! I think it may sound harsh as well, but that is the truth...a present will make a child happy no matter who it's from...why add the extra baggage to it? I think Christmas is bullshit in the first place, but for the sake of tradition, I would still give my kids presents and decorate and all that jazz, but the meaning behind it would be to celebrate the one time of year where people make it a point to be nice to one another. Not the myths and deceptions.

Regardless, I do not have children so it's hard for me to say or judge, but I do remember finding out that there was no Santa from other friends and not only feeling stupid, but feeling upset with my folks for treating me like an idiot. Most of all though, for having the cold water bath of reality that you get when you realize there is no such thing as magic and belief making things unbelievable true.

But what is it they say? The road to hell is paved with good intentions?

Is it really that much better for a child to get presents once a year just because that holiday calls for them

I don't know if it's "better" hun, I just know that's what we all do, so...that's enough. The truth is enough, so why imbelish it?

I think we are all imparted with the inertia of our culture and it is beneficial to step outside the inertia and say "Now...why exactly am I doing this?"

That's sort of what atheism is all about, for me.

I do see your points. I'm usually all about being honest to my kids about everything. It would also be very hard to steer your kids completely clear of Santa anyway...have you never been out during the holiday season? Santa is fun for them, they enjoy the whole "magic" aspect of it, and I can't take that away from them. I'm pretty sure everyone that learned the horrible truth about santa is perfectly fine and did not end up hating their parents forever for it. It does no harm. I'm curious to what's bullshit about Christmas? I can't find anything bad about getting together with loved ones, exchanging gifts.

I don't see ANYTHING wrong with getting together with loved ones, or friends. I don't see ANYTHING wrong with exchanging gifts, or just GIVING them (since we don't really "exchange" gifts with our kids, right?) What does Santa have to do with any of that? I get together with loved ones and exchange gifts because I have the day off from work, money at the end of the year, custom, and because everyone else does the same thing so it's good timing.

Of course I have been out during the holiday season, and, of course, I've heard the logical cartwheels done by parents to maintain the "magic" of Santa.

For instance; how come Santa is at three different malls at the same time?

The answer given isn't "magic" it's "Well, Santa has 'helpers'."

I'll tell you like I tell god-fearing people; if you have faith that your kid needs to believe in Santa then there's nothing I can do to dissuade you, because I will use logic and reason and you will use faith.

Your faith is, to use your words:
"It would also be very hard to steer your kids completely clear of Santa"
(yeah, and since it's hard why bother)
"Santa is fun for them, they enjoy the whole "magic" aspect of it, and I can't take that away from them"
(Not giving someone something isn't the same as "taking it away". This opens up the line of false-reasoning "You're taking away the love of God from people by denying God")
"It does no harm"
(I don't agree on many different levels. It teaches dishonesty, it requires a "front," and it denies reality. Each of these, since everything is connected, has an impact on child, parent, and society)

I tolerate all sorts of nonsensical beliefs; but don't expect me to agree with the logic you use.

Steering children away from group-belief is a hard but important part of parenting. Just because something is fun doesn't mean it's useful and harmless. "everybody does it" is not a valid argument.

Do your kids tell other kids that santa isn't real? How does that work?

Great question and I have this problem both with Santa and God.

And when you get right down to it; aren't they both the same exact problem? We all together agree that Santa isn't real but, nudge nudge, wink wink, it's ok to pretend because it trips the kids out! It gives us a little extra smile at how thier silly minds are and how they can be controlled and hey, ain't it great leverage when they're being bad? "You behave, or Santa won't come!" Shuts 'em right up, every time!

And so it goes with God. We, those well-educated and well-thought enough, fully understand the unlikelyness of any world religion being 100% accurate, but, nudge nudge, wink wink, shut up about it and let the oppiate do its job. I mean, if we were honest about it then kids might go have premarital sex, or people might have abortions, or kill one another. If we admit that there is no god all sorts of bad things might happen like theft, or racism, or even wars, right?

Oh...wait...shit...those things all exist. Well...keep quiet anyway, maybe it helps things from being worse.

I don't know how Santa will work for my kid since her mother won't be straight with her and since we need to present a unified front. But I plan on being honest with her;
Santa doesn't come here, honey, I bring you presents because I love you.
How can Santa deliver presents to all the kids in the world? I don't think it's possible. And, do you think that he delivers presents to people who don't believe in him? Like the kids in other countries who have never even heard of him? In fact, what do you think about all the kids who are good but still don't get presents?

The Santa myth can't last long in my child because I won't reinforce it and I'll reward her for thinking critically and asking great questions. Let the masses reward their children for poor thought patterns if they must; my child will be the one leading the charge of thinkers.

Once she figures it out, and she will before most, I'll teach her that some people can handle the truth and others need the lie. It'll be good practice for her - it's just like real life.

I really don't see how God factors in with Santa, other than I see that you pride yourself in being a non believer, which is fine, but I think you're pushing that a little too hard. Let kids be kids for a while. There's no harm in it, they aren't going to grow up to be pathalogical liars because they believed in Santa. We're slowly taking all the fun out of childhood. You might be raising your child to be "the one leading the charge of thinkers" but at the same time you're taking away her ability to have faith in ANYTHING...so how will she learn to have faith in even herself? Faith isn't a dirty word. My kids will not be sheep, following along because "everyone else does it", but they will definatly have simple, fun, free childhoods to enjoy. I'll be enjoying seeing my kids grow to be perfectly happy, functional adults. There's nothing wrong with wanting your kids to question things, but you're destroying the short time of innocence they have to begin with.

Thanks for the comments:

I actually do think that faith is a dirty word, though I would describe it more as being a destructive word. My daughter won't have to have faith in herself; she'll have proof. Faith is belief without proof.

Your post helped me realize that I'm not raising a "child" but an adult who isn't there yet. My job is to mold her into a functional adult, a little at a time.

We play, we have fun, we sing stupid songs and laugh at normal events she hasn't experienced yet. We run into the ocean she gets knocked down by waves, she says goodnight to the moon and loves to put coins in her Hello Kitty bank.

She's a kid, she's innocent, and lying to her has nothing to do with any of that.

What we teach children when they are young and sponges has a direct and verifiable impact on the adults they become.

How can you say, in one breath, There's nothing wrong with wanting your kids to question things, but then in the next, offer them lies as the answers to their questions?

I'm not destroying innocence by failing to reinforce it the Santa myth; I'm being true to my daughter by being an honest adult.

Lie if you need to lie, but please don't accuse me of taking away my daughter's innocence. Just because she knows I'll answer her questions honestly doesn't mean I'm hardening her; it means I'm teaching her and there's a world of difference between the two.

Telling your child something is true that isn't is a lie. The moon cannot hear her when she says goodnight to it and if she ever asked me about that I'd tell her straight. But Santa goes a step farther than that; it acutally INTRODUCES a falsehood and then, as the child struggles with the inconsistency of the story, the adult is there to trip the child up with a lie and a false news-report about NORAD tracking a mysterious sleigh.

I've applied reason, logic and facts to this and I find it appauling, insulting, and destructive. If you'd like to change my mind about it you'll need logic, reason and facts. Stuff like "innocence" and "believing in Santa is a part of a simple, fun, free childhood" don't count. The reason for that? In order to accept your premise I'd have to accept that cultures who don't have Santa myths are less than ones who do.

It's all connected.

I'm not trying to change your mind. You and your child are free to believe anything you wish. (Please keep in mind it's simply a debate, and I'm not attempting to insult either) I'm just trying to say that letting my kids believe in santa in no way harms them. It's simple, childhood fun. I'm also very sure they'll be fine when they find out the truth. You can't really expect to call me twisted for something like santa, and expect me to agree with you? You're making a big deal out of nothing, and I assure you that Santa is a VERY small issue when it comes to issues with parenting. There are much, much bigger things to be worried about.

"You can't really expect to call me twisted for something like santa, and expect me to agree with you?"

I intended to call the behavior twisted, not you personally.

Interesting comment, Sabrina (message 9). I really hope my daughter doesn't want to believe; I think I'd be really put off by that.

Wow.

If Santa isn't a religious figure, than how come he comes on Christmas?

I think many children who aren't taught to believe in Santa come out just fine and laugh at the kids who do, just like adults do. Really though, I used to work as a camp councilor at an art gallery and I know plenty of kids who didn't believe, but would never dream of telling a child who did the truth. Most people are bigger dicks than children...They say kids can be cruel? Nooo kids are just honest. But those old enough to really understand what Santa represents anyway wouldn't "mess it up" for another kid.

I didn't tell my little brother when I knew even though I REALLLLLLLY wanted to.

I don't know about long term effects, I just think that it's a cruel catalyst. It's the first real time that kids see their parents aren't "superheroes."

To each their own, I guess, but since the lie only really surfaces once a year and only for the first few years of children's lives...it begs the question of either "What's the harm?" but for me, more so..."What's the point?"

I think I'm with Rob on this one...I think my kids will be just as pleased to receive presents from ME as opposed to presents from an omniscient, omnipresent, all-knowing, judgmental, magical, fictional being....(sounds a lot like God to me, LOL)

Of course, I'll probably take my kid over to play with some cold-hearted bastard's kid, and his kid, unable to feel joy because she'd never believed in Santa and desperately wishing to fill the gaping void in her psyche where Santa would have lived, with the misery and broken dreams of others, will tell my kid the truth, and ruin the whole thing.

Where Santa should have been is a decapitated Barbie doll, a sniper rifle, and a grinning three year old muttering “I’ll show them…”

I hear what you’re saying; it’s not a perfect analogy and especially not for people like us. We know how to make it play and we know how to make it fun and we could kind of “parent” it through.

But, how do you tell your little girl that she won’t get what she wants, no matter how good she is? Me…I tell her “Daddy’s broke, honey, so no, you can’t have a pony.” How does a Santa-parent explain reality without outright lying, and still maintain the “fun”? “Santa’s magic, but not magic enough to bring you a pony.”