Victorians! discussion

Please use this thread to discuss the novel up to the end of the second quarter.

Thanks for dividing this up, Pip!
I've just finished this quarter. At first, I was afraid this was just going to be a continuation of Trotty encountering a series of miserable, self-satisfied, heartless, monotonous rich guy caricatures. But, thankfully it moved on to the chance meeting in the street. The hospitality scene was quite lovely.

But I have to reread the ending because it seemed like Toby fell from the bell tower and that doesn't seem right. Not if we have two quarters yet. So off to do that now. :)

Never mind. Just a faint. I was really tired when I was finishing. :P

Big themes explored here, as in the first quarter. Most importantly, it seems, the good-heartedness of the poor: Toby helping out the Ferns. And although it’s a cliché to say that the poor are good and the rich are bad (I rather loathe this generalisation myself), it has at least a seed of truth in it. When life gets down to the level of bare necessities, one gets a clearer picture of what life is ultimately about. We, people with our internets and The Chimes at one click’s reach, realize that too when we get at least temporarily sick and are in a more or less helpless state. What else do we then strive for than health, friendship, love, joy et cetera? This is what Toby stands for, in contrast to the men of money and career, the Aldermans and the others, who don’t see the bare (and beautiful) necessities.

It’s been an interesting read so far, although not my favourite Dickens. Somehow its lacking an engaging plot, but we’ll see what happens in the next two quarters. What a cliffhanger at the end. :)

Renee wrote: "But I have to reread the ending because it seemed like Toby fell from the bell tower and that doesn't seem right. Not if we have two quarters yet. So off to do that now. :) "

I was a bit confused by this too, Renee! I wondered if it was going to be a much darker story than 'A Christmas Carol' where the protagonist dies and his ghost helplessly has to watch what happens to his family.

Did you like the atmosphere created with the spirits and the goblins?

I'll save my comment on the spirits and goblins for the next quarter. what I did like in this section was the way in which the bells changed their message, at least in Trotty's ears, to reflect his mood.
I was a bit worried about the "Haunt and hunt him" chimes, though - I couldn't work out what the poor man had really done other than react so negatively to the news of the death of the suicide/infanticide.

Pip wrote: "I'll save my comment on the spirits and goblins for the next quarter. what I did like in this section was the way in which the bells changed their message, at least in Trotty's ears, to reflect his..."

I think he lost faith, which linking back to Agnes Grey, is such an important Victorian virtue. Agnes's faith in God never falters and it is her strength. Whereas Trotty loses faith in himself and his people (and perhaps the chimes represent religion and God and he believes they're no longer on his side either). Does that make him a potentially more sympathetic character as I think in this early part of the twenty first century society has more sympathy to people with doubts than those that have fanaticism in their world view?

Pip wrote: "what I did like in this section was the way in which the bells changed their message, at least in Trotty's ears, to reflect his mood. ..."

This caught my attention too. I'm wondering, instead of being their own character, if the chimes aren't in fact there to echo the thoughts and feelings of the characters in this story? Hmmmm ......

Dickens is certainly demonizing the rich to the point that I think it actually detracts from the story. As long as the poor "know their proper stations", they're tolerated and in spite of it being the Christmas season, Sir Joseph has a very different focus: "We should feel that every return of so eventful a period in human transactions, involves matters of deep moment between a man and his ---- and his banker."

There seems to a number of references to the start of one year and the beginning of another. I wonder if there is anything in this ......???

I really like Clari's point about faith. While it should be important to everyone, never is it more important than to the poor.

Good point, Clari. I've been turning that over in my mind. Trotty was quite disturbed by the conversation with the Alderman group... Perhaps to the point of losing faith in his God and his fellow man. Yes, that would make the events tie together better. And, you're right, that might have been obvious to a reader of his own time.

I keep trying to relate the story to our own times, and don't find myself doing particularly well.

My mind keeps comparing the story in the bell tower with other dark stories -- from shattered ear drums to deaths from ringing bells -- not all of which I can identify any more. I do think of Dorothy Sayers and The Nine Tailors.

Sidebar: "In some parishes in England the centuries old tradition of announcing a death on a church bell is upheld. In a small village most people would be aware of who was ill, and so broadcasting the age and sex of the deceased would identify them. To this end the death was announced by telling (i.e. single blows with the bell down) the sex and then striking off the years. Three blows meant a child, twice three a woman and thrice three a man. After a pause the years were counted out at approximately half-minute intervals. The word teller in some dialects becomes tailor, hence the old saying 'Nine tailors maketh a man'."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine...

Do we have any idea what church may be the one where the bells are ringing? Are we in London? The story uses the word chimes, yet the story sounds like bells to me. Have been trying to find appropriate example. Apparently the ones in our story did not need people doing the ringing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCVqf...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BBcO...

Love the quote from nine Tailors. I've been thinking about that book, as well.
The video clips cowers so interesting. Especially the tuning of the bells. Never thought of them so much like piano keys.

Renee wrote: "Love the quote from nine Tailors. I've been thinking about that book, as well.
The video clips cowers so interesting. Especially the tuning of the bells. Never thought of them so much like piano ..."

Youtube has, or at least had, some fascinating clips of bell ringers in England. We shared many of them among those of us who were reading Sayers' Nine Tailors together. The clip above shows a very different process -- as you say, more like playing a tuned piano.

Cleo wrote: "...faith. While it should be important to everyone, never is it more important than to the poor...."

faith ... "opiate of the poor"? Do we really believe that faith, whatever that means, isn't somehow, in some sense, important to most humans?

Cleo wrote: "Dickens is certainly demonizing the rich to the point that I think it actually detracts from the story. ..."

I agree. One wishes for a bit of the biographical information (the letters, et al) when Dickens was writing this story, but I'm not motivated enough to go looking. Is anyone reading a copy with an introduction that gives some comments?

The wikipedia entry for The Chimes gives some background information (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ch...) on Dickens' motivation for writing the novel. For example, the bells which inspired him were in fact the bells of Genoa, where he was staying when he wrote it in 1844:

"All Genoa lay beneath him, and up from it, with some sudden set of the wind, came in one fell sound the clang and clash of all its steeples, pouring into his ears, again and again, in a tuneless, grating, discordant, jerking, hideous vibration that made his ideas "spin round and round till they lost themselves in a whirl of vexation and giddiness, and dropped down dead." (from John Forster's biography).

Some of the characters, too, such as Alderman Cute and the suicide victim were based on real people and events.

Pip wrote: "The wikipedia entry for The Chimes gives some background information (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ch...) on Dickens' motivation for writing the novel. For example, the bells which inspired ..."

Thx, Pip.

Perhaps these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jnQt...

Long (12+ min), but beautiful. I only sampled: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WjsA...

Lily wrote: "Cleo wrote: "...faith. While it should be important to everyone, never is it more important than to the poor...."

faith ... "opiate of the poor"? Do we really believe that faith, whatever that me..."

I don't want to get involved in a hefty religious debate, but I think that the faith which Trotty loses is the faith in himself, in his fellow men and in the individual's ability to change, rather than in God. He loses "faith"rather than "his faith". You'll have to remind me; is religious faith much mentioned in The Chimes, despite its setting in a religious building? As far as I can remember, Trotty's interpretations of the bells' messages are more mundane.

Lily wrote: "Pip wrote: "The wikipedia entry for The Chimes gives some background information (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ch...) on Dickens' motivation for writing the novel. For example, the bells whi..."

Great video, Lily! You got there before me, but as I was searching for Genoese bells, I came across this humorous story about a parishioner who complained about the noise, albeit from a different church:


Lawyer hired to complain about church bells in Genoa
Posted: Friday, March 15, 2002

GENOA, Italy (AP) -- A Roman Catholic priest has promised to cut back the number of times he rings the church bells after a parishioner called in her lawyer to complain.

Sonia Sander, who lives near the church, said the priest ignored her repeated pleas that the bells at Santa Maria Immacolata kept her awake at night.

The volume of the ringing was measured at 80 decibels, well above the legal limit of 30, Sander's lawyer, Laura Buffa, said.

''At that level it damages your ears,'' she said.

On March 8, Buffa and the Rev. Amos Romano reached a 30-day trial agreement limiting the bell-ringing to five times on Sundays and holidays and three times on other days.

The bells at the church have been rung every half hour from 7 a.m. until 9 p.m. on Sundays since 1996.

Buffa said her client, a regular churchgoer, had tried to negotiate with the priest herself for years.

''She didn't get anywhere,'' Buffa said.

The head of the parish council, Paolo Petralia, insisted that no one else had complained about the noise.

''There have always been church bells,'' he said. ''They're a tradition".

Pip wrote: "...You'll have to remind me; is religious faith much mentioned in The Chimes, despite its setting in a religious building?..."

Pip, you could probably better discern than I! At this stage in my life journey, "secular" and "religious" bend and weave, rather than flow within distinct river banks, when it comes to words like "faith," "trust," "spirit," "soul,"....

I loved the truly heartwarming story of Trotty taking in Will Fern and Lillian, feeding them and giving them a bed; such a stark distinction between the haves and have-nots!

Hilary wrote: "I loved the truly heartwarming story of Trotty taking in Will Fern and Lillian, feeding them and giving them a bed; such a stark distinction between the haves and have-nots!"

This was my favourite part too, Hilary!

Oh I'm glad, Cleo. :-}