Victorians! discussion

I am running behind and will update with a summary & questions as soon as I can. In the meanwhile, feel free to comment on chapters 9-16.

Michael Henchard is definitely not a sympathetic character. I’m having a hard time seeing him as a tragic figure at this point. I find him misogynistic for starters. I wish Hardy hadn’t skimmed over the wedding and the days following, but he clearly only remarried Susan out of guilt not regard or any tender feelings.

I agree about Henchard. It turns out he married a second time, another girl, and not for love either. He´s not only behaving badly against women, but also against his workers, at least as far as we hear from the people in the village.

Farfrae, whom he talked into working for him, becomes his competitor, although we - except once - don´t hear anything about the Scotsman´s better behaviour.

I wonder if Henchard wrote the letters trying to bring Farfrae and Elizabeth-Jane together. The Scotsman at least wasn´t interested in her when they met at the inn.

Ooo. Interesting supposition, Michaela! To what purpose do you think?

Renee wrote: "Ooo. Interesting supposition, Michaela! To what purpose do you think?"

He seemed very interested in Farfrae in the beginning, so he might want to marry his daughter to him, to keep him and to perhaps leave the factory to him later on. Atm it doesn´t seem so, as he´s on the verge of throwing him out.

Chapter 10: Henchard sends Susan five guineas. The narrator’s comment that ‘the amount was significant; it may tacitly have said to her that he bought her back again’ made me shudder. Imagine this said about a male character. I’d read the five guineas gesture as symbolically paying a debt, but I’m obviously naive!

I agree; that seems so callus. I wonder if it would have read that way to it’s original audience?

Chapter 10
The dining-room to which he introduced her still exhibited the remnants of the lavish breakfast laid for Farfrae. It was furnished to profusion with heavy mahogany furniture of the deepest red-Spanish hues. Pembroke tables, with leaves hanging so low that they well-nigh touched the floor, stood against the walls on legs and feet shaped like those of an elephant, and on one lay three huge folio volumes—a Family Bible, a "Josephus," and a "Whole Duty of Man." In the chimney corner was a fire-grate with a fluted semicircular back, having urns and festoons cast in relief thereon, and the chairs were of the kind which, since that day, has cast lustre upon the names of Chippendale and Sheraton, though, in point of fact, their patterns may have been such as those illustrious carpenters never saw or heard of.


https://www.greenworldlumber.com/blog...
Mahogany is a type of wood that is simply described as having straight-grains and a reddish-brown hue of timber. One of the first places Mahogany wood was discovered was in Belize, however it soon became known that the Mahogany tree was indigenous to the Americas.

Pembroke table
https://thesourceforantiques.wordpres...
"There is another possible origin for the name of the table that stretches back further in the family.   It is sometimes said that the table was named for Mary Herbert, Countess of Pembroke (1561-1621), who allegedly ordered a table of this design.   Mary Herbert was one of the first English women to achieve fame as a poet: at Wilton she established the Wilton Circle, which became a ‘paradise for poets,’ including Edmund Spenser, Michael Drayton, Sir John Davies, and Samuel Daniel.  She also entertained Queen Elizabeth I with her husband, Henry Herbert, 2nd Earl of Pembroke at Bayndard’s Castle in the City of London."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_...
Mary Sidney's psalms:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidne...

When you read this and think of the power these aristocrats had over peasants, which were heathen in their eyes:
The Separation of the sinful and the righteous.

The book of Psalms and so the Sidney Psalter is very concerned with being righteous, there is pious apologies (i.e. psalm 31, 51), blaming God (i.e. Psalm 22) and lots and lots of blaming others (i.e. Psalm 109) when people aren’t completely sinless. But this may be due to the recurring theme of judgment, separating out the sinners from the righteous. This begins straight of in Psalm 1 where quite literally the wheat are sorted from the “chaff” (“the wicked, but like chaff” (Sidney, 2009, pg. 11)).

Chaft reminds me of something i read later in The Mayor of Casterbridge.

“Not with the just, be their meetings placed” (Sidney, 2009, pg. 11). This may be one of the most recurring themes in the Psalter so here are just a few examples: Psalm 11: “on them: storms, brimstone, coals he rains: that is their share assigned. But so of happy other side.” (The Sidney Psalter, 2009, pg. 218)

Psalm 145: “He will his lovers all preserve; He will the wicked all destroy:” (The Sidney Psalter, 2009, pg. 27


Pembroke tables, with feet shaped like those of an elephant,
I think this is part of the allegory, because these tables typically had thin legs. And I think this is talking about the power of the English over their empire and especially through the East India Company.

https://www.historyextra.com/period/t...
"The first half of the 19th century was marked by economic depression in India. Excessive land tax demands and lack of investment stunted agricultural development, while traditional industries such as textiles were decimated by the import of cheap manufactured goods. Catastrophic famines, most notably in Bengal (1770) and in the Agra region (1837–8) were exacerbated by the EIC’s tax policies, its laissez faire attitudes towards the grain market, and failures of state relief. "

I can see tea being served to the court on little tables with the weight of an elephant on the backs of the Indians in India.

"With the East India Company’s infiltration of India, Britons became wise to the value of elephants and were anxious to control the traditional source of the animal in the forests of eastern Bengal."

TRADING KNOWLEDGE: THE EAST INDIA COMPANY’S ELEPHANTS IN INDIA AND BRITAIN* SUJITSIVA SUNDARAM Gonville and Caius College, Cambridge page 32 (free pdf)

Titus Flavius Josephus (/dʒoʊˈsiːfəs/;[2] Greek: Φλάβιος Ἰώσηπος; 37 – c. 100),[3] born Yosef ben Matityahu (Hebrew: יוסף בן מתתיהו, Yosef ben Matityahu; Greek: Ἰώσηπος Ματθίου παῖς), was a first-century Romano-Jewish historian who was born in Jerusalem—then part of Roman Judea—to a father of priestly descent and a mother who claimed royal ancestry.

Josephus's writings provide the first-known source for many stories considered as Biblical history, despite not being found in the Bible or related material. These include Ishmael as the founder of the Arabs,[51] the connection of "Semites", "Hamites" and "Japhetites" to the classical nations of the world, and the story of the Siege of Masada.

For many years, the works of Josephus were largely known in Europe only in an imperfect Latin translation from the original Greek. Only in 1544 did a version of the standard Greek text become available in French, edited by the Dutch humanist Arnoldus Arlenius. The first English translation, by Thomas Lodge, appeared in 1602, with subsequent editions appearing throughout the 17th century. The 1544 Greek edition formed the basis of the 1732 English translation by William Whiston, which achieved enormous popularity in the English-speaking world. It was often the book—after the Bible—that Christians most frequently owned. A cross-reference apparatus for Whiston's version of Josephus and the biblical canon also exists.[53][54] Whiston claimed that certain works by Josephus had a similar style to the Epistles of St Paul.[55]




https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_W...
The Whole Duty of Man  is an English high church 'Protestant' devotional work, first published anonymously, with an introduction by Henry Hammond, in 1658. It was both popular and influential for two centuries, in the Anglican tradition it helped to define. The title is taken from Ecclesiastes 12:13, in the King James Version of the Bible: Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.[1]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_...

Noted for its "majesty of style", the King James Version has been described as one of the most important books in English culture and a driving force in the shaping of the English-speaking world.[2][3]

King James cited two passages in the Geneva translation where he found the marginal notes offensive to the principles of divinely ordained royal supremacy  :[44] Exodus 1:19, where the Geneva Bible notes had commended the example of civil disobedience to the Egyptian Pharaoh showed by the Hebrew midwives, and also II Chronicles 15:16, where the Geneva Bible had criticized King Asa for not having executed his idolatrous 'mother', Queen Maachah (Maachah had actually been Asa's grandmother, but James considered the Geneva Bible reference as sanctioning the execution of his own mother Mary, Queen of Scots).[44] Further, the King gave the translators instructions designed to guarantee that the new version would conform to the ecclesiology of the Church of England.[8

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divin...

The divine right of kings, divine right, or God's mandate is a political and religious doctrine of royal and political legitimacy. 

Outside of Christianity,[clarification needed] kings were often seen as either ruling with the backing of heavenly powers or perhaps even being divine beings themselves. However, the Christian notion of a divine right of kings is traced to a story found in 1 Samuel, where the prophet Samuel anoints Saul and then David as mashiach or king over Israel. The anointing is to such an effect that the monarch became inviolable, so that even when Saul sought to kill David, David would not raise his hand against him because "he was the Lord's anointed".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divin...#

Divine Right Of Kings

For example, Richard I of England declared at his trial during the diet at Speyer in 1193: "I am born in a rank which recognizes no superior but God, to whom alone I am responsible for my actions", and it was Richard who first used the motto "Dieu et mon droit"  ("God and my right") which is still the motto of the Monarch of the United Kingdom.

With the rise of nation-states and the Protestant Reformation in the late 16th century, the theory of divine right justified the king's absolute authority in both political and spiritual matters. 

In England the doctrine of the divine right of kings was developed to its most extreme logical conclusions during the political controversies of the 17th century; its most famous exponent was Sir Robert Filmer. It was the main issue to be decided by the English Civil War, the Royalists holding that "all Christian kings, princes and governors" derive their authority direct from God, the Parliamentarians that this authority is the outcome of a contract, actual or implied, between sovereign and people.[11]

Cosmic—I hope you’re not seriously suggesting that Eliza de Feuillide used Jane Austen as a pen name and is the true author of the novels attributed to Jane Austen.

Let’s keep our comments pertinent to the story we are reading, please. There’s a “Not Strictly Victorian” folder for anyone who wishes to debate the authorship of the Jane Austen novels. Thank you.

Chapter16

Grease Pole New York City

By legend, on November 25, 1783, Evacuation Day, John Van Arsdale climbed up a flagpole deliberately greased by the British as they left New York City, in order to remove the Union Jack and replace it with the Stars and Stripes. An annual flag-raising on the holiday commemorated the event for many years.[9]
The climbing of a greasy pole is also used as a metaphor for the difficulty in reaching the top of one's career. [12][13][14] This metaphor was used in a well-known quote in Britain by  Benjamin Disraeli after becoming the Prime Minister in 1868, "I have climbed to the top of the greasy pole."[12]

Watch video of pole climbing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orez-...

_________

Everybody was attracted, and some said that her bygone simplicity was the art that conceals art, the "delicate imposition" of Rochefoucauld; she had produced an effect, a contrast, and it had been done on purpose. As a matter of fact this was not true, but it had its result; for as soon as Casterbridge thought her artful it thought her worth notice. "It is the first time in my life that I have been so much admired," she said to herself; "though perhaps it is by those whose admiration is not worth having."
But Donald Farfrae admired her, too;
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franç...

Maxims

Here are a few examples:

II. Self-love is the greatest of all flatterers.

VIII. Sincere enthusiasm is the only orator who always persuades. It is like an art the rules of which never fail; the simplest man with enthusiasm persuades better than the most eloquent with none.

CDXI. There hardly exist faults which are not more pardonable than the means by which one tries to hide them.

CDXXXIII. The truest mark of having been born with great qualities is to have been born without envy.[9]
______
"Where's Abel Whittle? Not come after all I've said? Now I'll carry out my word, by my blessed fathers—nothing else will do him any good! I'm going up that way."

Abel Whittle reminds me of the stories Cain and Abel and Pinocchio. I know there are a lot of Masonic themes in Pinocchio, so i am looking to see how this character is treated. So far harshly, like a slave. Abel is treating Henhard as a slave would his Master, even calling him master!

_____
Henchard and Farfrae are starting to be divided.

On Henchard's part there was now again repose; and yet, whenever he thought of Farfrae, it was with a dim dread; and he often regretted that he had told the young man his whole heart, and confided to him the secrets of his life.

I want to share with you a video by the BBC on The East India Company.Company
Company
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Q16F...
Company Company
I think if you are looking at The Mayor Of Casterbridge as a political allegory this podcast is very interesting and dovetails into what i have been studying and writing.

One of the references that I believe Hardy was making was that Elizabeth-Jane was a reference to jane Austen. I want sure exactly how though till i listened to this BBC podcast.
Jane Austen's books let women know what the fashion of day was. By doing this she helped create a market for the good for the East India Trading Company.

On this account Henchard's manner towards Farfrae insensibly became more reserved. He was courteous—too courteous—and Farfrae was quite surprised at the good breeding which now for the first time showed itself among the qualities of a man he had hitherto thought undisciplined, if warm and sincere.

This kinda bothered me when i first read it. Although i don't think that Farfrae is wrong it shows something about how he sees himself. He sees himself as superior.superior
superior
Now Farfrae means from a far. Frae meaning from. So i believe that F. represents the East India Company. And Henchard may represent the colonialist. Because when the EIC went to Asia or India they saw themself as superior. After all they know how to exploit labor or goods to make a profit.Farrar
Farrar
So far Farfrae hasn't exploited labor, we see that he has fooled the people into believing that because the bread taste better.Farrar
Farrar
In the video about the EIC spices was the primary reason to form the company forming in the first place. Because food was rotten, rat infested and didn't smell good or taste good. So the goal was to bring these spices from the orient over and make the food plitable.

We see that at the end of the chapter Farfrae has improved Henchards grain. But this is the beginning.

Another thing that i dont like about the charismatic Farfrae is that he never gives Henchard any credit for providing the coverage he requested at no cost to himself. And he charges people to come to his event. A true Capitalist!