The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

This section provides an interesting contrast between Marie Melmotte, who seems to be getting stronger and more clearly drawn as this section progresses, and Georgiana Longestaffe who is gradually fading into the background socially. What do you think Trollope is saying about the role of unmarried women and daughters? Do you feel he is sympathetic to their plight? What did you think of Georgiana and Lady Monogram's friendship?

How do the young men fare in Trollope's view? We have three in this section-Felix Carbury, Dolly Longestaffe, and Paul Montague. What do you think of each of their actions?

Lady Carbury has tried to assist her son with Mr. Melmotte-what did you think of the outcome? I also enjoyed her deliberations around accepting Mr Broune's proposal. Again, what did you think of her deliberations on the possibilities of this proposed marriage?

Please share your thoughts!

Felix starts to admire Marie a bit for his audacity, the first feelings he's really shown toward her. He doesn't seem to be capable of loving a woman, but if there were characteristics in her that he admired, I wonder if he could be somewhat companionable as a husband as long as he had enough money. I doubt it, though. And would Marie really be able to get that money?

Something I keep noticing is how late people are out. Not just Felix, but even his mother's gatherings don't end until 2:00 am or so. This seems strange to me. Why would people stay out that late, especially before electricity? Wouldn't it be more expedient to meet in the day? Perhaps it was a status symbol - people who didn't have to labor could stay up since they didn't have to get up early and work the next day. Also, they could afford plenty of candles and wax (or did they use oil lamps more?).

I also enjoyed the Broune/Carbury proposal - how he saw Felix and immediately regretted it!

Poor Georgiana. She just wanted to meet a potential husband, and staying with the Melmottes may have hurt her chances rather than helping them.

Their homes would have been illuminated with gas.

Lori wrote: "Felix starts to admire Marie a bit for his audacity, the first feelings he's really shown toward her. He doesn't seem to be capable of loving a woman, but if there were characteristics in her that ..."

I would certainly hope that Marie would also be clever enough not to give Felix control of her money, although I'm not sure that would fit with her romantic ideal.

As often seems to be the case, the Trollope men leave much to be desired. Nothing that Felix does puts him in a positive light. His concern about Miles’s cheating comes from the financial impact upon himself. He still cares nothing for Marie, he just admires her gumption in her willingness to face her father and to run away with her settlement. She has more gumption than he does. Will he take the gamble to marry Marie or take Melmotte up on his offer to make him a success in the city? Hard to say. While Lady Carbury doubts that he has the wherewithal to sustain a success in the city, I don’t know if Felix has that much self awareness. Although TWWLN was published in 1875, was it meant to take place at that point? Through the Married Women’s Property Act of 1870, I believe that Marie would have retained her ownership of the settlement after marriage as opposed to Felix gaining total legal control.

Unfortunately Paul Montague really shows his cowardice and duplicity in this section through his relationship with Winifred. He doesn’t have the courage to be totally honest with her and to complicate matters is obviously still sexually attracted to her. Henrietta run the other way! He has already shown his weakness in business matter, his being taken advantage of by Fisker and Melmotte. Winifred is a clever manipulator for whom he is no match.

I was willing to give Melmotte the benefit of the doubt concerning his motives for arranging a marriage match for Marie. In this section, we are told he is motivated by totally selfish motives with not a concern for Marie. He also appears to be a violent wife beater and on the verge of abusing Marie as well.

Poor Georgiana seemed to have no concept of the social effect staying with the Melmottes would produce. She certainly is a social snob herself but I sympathize with her predicament of needing to find an economically secure marriage, as all women desired, and feeling she has no choice but to stay with the Melmottes in order to be in London for the season. Her friend, Julia, is certainly another social snob who will desert her friend so she won’t have any possible contamination from the Melmottes.

I also feels sorry for Broune. If Lady Carbury decides to marry him, it will only be for what it can mean for Felix. She will never change in that respect and she told him so quite directly. I do admire Lady Carbury as she has so far chosen freedom after the abusive tyranny of her first husband, compounded by social censure. She is a survivor, although her ethics are not a model for positive behavior.

Frances wrote: "What do you think Trollope is saying about the role of unmarried women and daughters? Do you feel he is sympathetic to their plight?..."

Like others who have commented I feel sorry for Georgiana. Although she's not a particularly attractive character, she is in a difficult predicament. She needs a husband - and to her, a husband's personality and qualities are of far less importance than his rank. But having lowered her hopes from a lord to a "man of the right sort" she's unable to attract even one of those. Ironically it's her own perceived rank that is putting them off, due to her staying with the Melmottes.

And now her 'friend' Julia Triplex, despite being her junior and once her inferior, sees fit to domineer over her for the same reason: Julia calls the Melmottes 'abominations' although she was perfectly happy to go to their ball.

I think Trollope is pointing out the distortion caused by society's obsession with suitable marriages (ie suitable in terms of money and rank, not character) and the lack of any alternative for the women concerned. Georgiana's personality, I feel, has been warped by this perceived necessity to find a husband above all else. She hasn't had a great family background either, if her unsupportive father and useless brother Dolly are anything to go by. Dolly, like Felix, is another example of the son of the house being favoured far beyond the daughters, and far beyond his merits.

Yes, there seem to be very few sympathetic men in this section, and while Roger is certainly the only truly honourable man we've met so far, he unfortunately comes across as a bit dull and priggish. The women aren't much better, although Henrietta is pretty blameless, despite her unfortunate background-a father who beat her mother (and therefore likely the children, if he gave them any attention at all) a mother who clearly doesn't care about her and a selfish brother.

Marie is growing as a person and a character and learning to make up her own mind. It's too bad that Felix is her choice, because he isn't worthy to be her husband- or anyone else's.
Paul is turning out to be a weak, wishy washy character easily swayed by any stronger personality. I wonder if Winifred already has a husband, so that if Paul marries her the marriage will be invalid. He has a hard time saying No.
Poor Georgiana-she made a bad decision and is paying the price. Those who are snubbing her are showing just how truly shallow they are. If she survives the time with the Melmottes, she may become a kinder person- or a bitter one.

Linda wrote: "As often seems to be the case, the Trollope men leave much to be desired. Nothing that Felix does puts him in a positive light. His concern about Miles’s cheating comes from the financial impact up..."

Agreed about the men, but in this book Trollope seems to be criticizing the whole of "society" with its pretensions to class and breeding, all the while chasing after money and sneering at the family from which they hope to get the money. The blurb on my copy-the Oxford World Classics edited by John Sutherland-says that at first the novel was "savagely reviewed". Little wonder, given how harsh he is about society in general and with a few digs at the publishing world in particular.

I like the addition of Mrs. Hurtle to the story as she adds some spice and is a fairly complex not totally evil 'villain' that helps complicate poor Paul's life.
I like Paul. He is not evil or bad. He is pleasant with a fairly good personality. But he is weak, weak enough to be seduced and eaten alive by the Ms Hurtles and Fiskers of the world. But I don't think he's so bad that Hetta need "run away" from him, especially to the smug Roger. And, in the pantheon of Trollope male heroes, Paul ain't that bad.

Brian wrote: "I like the addition of Mrs. Hurtle to the story as she adds some spice and is a fairly complex not totally evil 'villain' that helps complicate poor Paul's life.
I like Paul. He is not evil or bad..."

Yes, Mrs Hurtle sounds as if she could be the heroine of a very different novel, but unfortunately she doesn't seem a Trollopian heroine!

I agree with Brian. Frances, interesting point about Mrs Hurtle potentially being the heroine of another story!