Victorians! discussion

This topic thread has been opened for a discussion of the events in Chapters 17-23.

What surprises you about the enfolding of the story and/or about the characters?
Hardy loves a twist. Has anything been revealed which changes our perception of a particular character or of our predictions of the outcome of the novel?

So much happened in this week’s reading. I’m particularly intrigued by Lucetta. I’m not getting why she is hiding her background—was she a prostitute? What’s wrong with being from Jersey? It seems she was desperate to marry Henchard once she learned of Susan’s death, but then cooled so quickly—I assume she’s set her sights on Farfrae, a much better choice in my opinion, but still...she’s not pregnant and doesn’t need money, so why the desperate need for a husband.

I find Elizabeth’s naïveté charming—I also liked how the narrator says she “seems” to be ignorant, which clues us in that she actually isn’t.

Henchard is really something...vile. He wants to be a father to Elizabeth but only if she is literally his daughter. The man strikes me as a complete empty shell, impulsive and completely narcissistic. I’m having a hard time feeling any sympathy for him. For me, the story is all about Elizabeth—will she win Farfrae’s heart. I love how Susan tried to set them up.

Finally, the Roman foundations of the town that continue to provide the structure of the town and the interactions of the characters is worth thinking about. When Hardy was describing forum or coliseum area where Susan and Henchard met in private, I was reminded of the final scene in Tess with Stonehenge connecting the past with the present. I’m wondering if this relates to the tragedy of the novel - I may dislike Henchard, the character in this novel, but his story is a tragic archetype?

I completely missed the Roman foundations in my first read. I, too, was caught up in the developing romance between Donald and Elizabeth-Jane. I think MoC is one of those novels that has enough layers to make it a worthwhile re-read.

Lucetta is interesting, isn’t she? A nice addition to the enfolding story.

I have come to see Michael as very much a tragic character. He is hugely impulsive!! And so often regrets at leisure. On the other hand, his ability to act with immediacy has probably helped make him successful. He might be my favorite Hardy male... not because I find him admirable, but I do find him interesting.

Hardy’s characters are very flawed and human. At times I prefer that and at others it’s too depressing. I agree. Michael is an interesting character. Seems as though he’s got a narcissistic personality disorder.

Oh My God; I love that! I hadn’t thought of him that way.

Jane wrote: "So much happened in this week’s reading. I’m particularly intrigued by Lucetta. I’m not getting why she is hiding her background—was she a prostitute? What’s wrong with being from Jersey? It seems ..."

I enjoyed reliving the story in your discription! I have actually read through to 31 but i am going back to review the details in the first half of the book, as i ponder on the meaning. I am going to reread these chapters because i failed to make notes.

Peggy wrote: "Hardy’s characters are very flawed and human. At times I prefer that and at others it’s too depressing. I agree. Michael is an interesting character. Seems as though he’s got a narcissistic persona..."

I like like that too. I wonder how tall he is? I think i remember that he really liked men that were tall. Does anyone remember that? I think one of his employees mentioned it. So maybe ge suffers from "short man disease".

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...

Interesting premise, Cosmic. That’s something I had not thought about in relationship to this story.

Chapter 17

I have been reading about Thomas Hardy to help me understand the political allegory in this story. Thomas Hardy 's sympathies were with the people of Dorset. For Americans this might remind us of the way of life expressed in the Foxfire Books of the Appalachians.

Henchard 's entertainment was free but the people had to work or provide the entertainment. They were not managed. Each individual or team after independently. Look at this grease poor competition.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orez-...
Or a sack race
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DiKp...

This is what life looked like before the East India Company came in.

Now in 1588s England defeated The Spanish Armanda and became a serious navel power. A group of English Merchants came to Elizabeth I and asked for a royal charter. "The royal charter gave it the ability to “wage war,” and initially it used military force to protect itself and fight rival traders."

To me this is like Donald F. going to H. and asking for the rain cloths.

This Royal Charter given to the East India Company https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_... them to create a monopoly on trade. The merchants put up 70,000 pounds of their own money. (If you want to play you have to pay!)

F. Provided entertainment but there was a cost for each person. Each person paid and he provided the music and even showed the steps. The steps were not hard to learn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnFTM...
When the EIC would go set up in a country they would leave an agent behind called "factors" and they set up "factories". They were like a broker between the goods and the traders. Making sure there was something coming in for something going out.


If you have been watching the stock market then i don't think that descriptive words will be lost, as the market occurred up and down.

"The tune had enticed her into it; being a tune of a busy, vaulting, leaping sort—some low notes on the silver string of each fiddle, then a skipping on the small, like running up and down ladders—"Miss M'Leod of Ayr" was its name, so Mr. Farfrae had said, and that it was very popular in his own country. "

"Miss M'Leod of Ayr"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYQWC...

One of the points of this chapter is the fact that factories were more profitable and individual labor became mechanized as the "reel" dance. The merchants made their money on the stock exchange.

So despite my reservation of liking Henchard I also wonder if F. is true to his word of if he has shadows that have not been revealed yet. One thing is interesting that when he is in the picture there are more descriptive words about light and darkness. One was this painter Chiaroscuro (English: /kiˌɑːrəˈsk(j)ʊəroʊ/ kee-AR-ə-SKOOR-oh, -⁠SKEWR-, Italian: [ˌkjaroˈskuːro]; Italian for '"light-dark"'), in art, is the use of strong contrasts between light and dark, usually bold contrasts affecting a whole composition. It is also a technical term used by artists and art historians for the use of contrasts of light to achieve a sense of volume in modelling three-dimensional objects and figures.[1] Similar effects in cinema and photography also are called chiaroscuro.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiar...

So I think that Hardy wants to paint two contrasting ideas or people in the characters that he has.

Chiaroscuro is one of my favorite words!
I agree with the idea that Hardy paints both the light and the dark in his characters. The characters in our recently read Jude, the Obscure are fine examples of this as well.

I have read Jude the Obscure. I mostly was reading the story. It would be nice to go back and read again!

So after thinking more about chapter 17 I see Donald F. as a socialist. He wants to organize labor. He sets up a factory ans people act as cogs in the wheel.

I say this because i remember that wiki said that Hardy's first novel which he destroyed, was a novel in favor of socialism. He took from that novel and put ideas in his other works. He was also a supporter of Spenser who coined the phrase "survival of the fittest."

So i think that Henchard may represent capitalism. Or the individual self interest above the group.

I maybe wrong and i may change my mind as we go along. I have really enjoyed studying this book!! It has been a great distraction from all that is going on. I hope everyone in the group is safe!

Finally finished these chapters, and yes, a lot was happening, twists and turns, nobody really knowing the whole truth. I wonder if Donald will get into a relationship with Lucetta?

It’s sure looking that way. Poor Elizabeth. I like how one of the chapters started out like this. It was exactly what I was thinking. There certainly are several twists in this section. I can’t help but chuckle if Michael is passed over for Donald.

Oh yes, he´s a bit old, and not very reliable, isn´t he? ;)