The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

This section opens with Ruby's grandfather's attempt to move along her marriage, and we meet her fiancé John Crumb and his more eloquent friend. What did you think of Trollope's portrayal of these characters? Was anyone else surprised at the "dinner party"-that Ruby would prepare and serve the food but not actually sit and eat with her grandfather and fiancé? What do you think of Ruby as a character?

What do you think will happen with the Melmotte party? The railroad project?

What is your opinion of Paul Montague at this stage? Contrast his behaviour with Mrs Hurtle with his actions at the board meeting.

What did you think of Lady Carbury's actions towards Mr Broune? Towards Henrietta in the last chapter?

Please share your thoughts on this section and our novel so far.

I wonder if Ruby might be better off in London. Felix won't marry her, but would she be able to find something to do there and perhaps meet someone else later if she wants, close to her own status? She seems to want more excitement than she would get at the farm.

I’m tired of people saying they’ll never love anyone again. It just seems overly dramatic to me and not how most people actually are. Did Emily Lopez say it in The Prime Minister?

Paul is an ass and I hope Hetta ends up with Roger. He's not perfect, but Hetta has had a horrible life so far - seeing her father beat her mother, being neglected in favor of her brother, having her mother only pay attention to her when she wants to complain or meddle - and it seems like a quiet life in the country with someone who loves her would be ideal. But if she can't love Roger, she can't, and she shouldn't feel like she "owes" it to him.

I wonder why Melmotte wants Paul out of the way so badly.

I agree-Paul seems like an unsteady young man-I could understand the entanglement with Mrs Hurtle, but not the constant embracing whenever he goes over to end things with her! I do wish Trollope's women could realize that their first love was not necessarily the best choice!

I think Melmotte wants Paul out of the way as so far he is the only board member to ask for actual updates on the project and to show any skepticism about how sound Melmotte and the entire project is.

Chapter 36. ‘teres atque rotundus’ from the Roman poet Horace. Literally ‘smooth and round’ denoting in the Stoic philosophy that level of self-mastery where one is impervious to disturbing emotions such as hope and fear. Like most of Trollope’s classical allusions, there’s some comic irony here.

Frances wrote: "Was anyone else surprised at the "dinner party"-that Ruby would prepare and serve the food but not actually sit and eat with her grandfather and fiancé? What do you think of Ruby as a character?
..."

I thought the dinner party was rather funny and illustrated exactly why a spirited girl like Ruby would want to leave. It's not that she seems to see anything wrong with the custom of serving the men-folk - and she does it well - but rather that the stultified, old-fashioned country life typified by this dinner is dull compared to the excitement of the city - and of Felix.

Unfortunately she's blinded by Felix's good looks. John Crumb is not a bad soul; he comes across as honest and loyal if not the sharpest knife in the box; but his slow inarticulacy probably also represents to the quick-thinking and impatient Ruby everything she dislikes about her humdrum rural life.

Is Trollope pushing coincidence too far in Mrs Hurtle’s lodging with Ruby’s aunt?

Bill wrote: "Is Trollope pushing coincidence too far in Mrs Hurtle’s lodging with Ruby’s aunt?"

Possibly, but it did let us avoid a convoluted hunt by Roger to find her!

If I were Paul I would take Melmotte's offer to go to North America and look for Mr. Hurtle.
As long as Ruby stays at her aunt's, she will be fine. But if she gets in touch with Felix....

Mrs. Carbury showed her positive side when she wrote Broune the letter, but she ruined it all when she was so nasty to Hetta.

Rosemarie wrote: "If I were Paul I would take Melmotte's offer to go to North America and look for Mr. Hurtle.
As long as Ruby stays at her aunt's, she will be fine. But if she gets in touch with Felix....

Mrs. Car..."

Agreed-let things cool down behind him and for the Roger-Henrietta thing to sort itself out.

I hope Ruby does not get herself into difficulty-Felix is a bad lot!

Had Paul accepted Melmotte’s offer to travel to America, I doubt very much that he would have returned alive. This was the Wild West and both Melmotte and Fisker have good reasons for him to vanish.

Good point, Bill. Paul is too honest for their purposes.

Paul is generally a weak person, easily manipulated and duped. The only strength of character he demonstrates is his insistence on transparency in how the railroad company is being run and how the shares are handled. Ironic how he insists on Melmotte being honest when he himself cannot be honest with Mrs. Hurtle, or for that matter with Henrietta who has no idea of Mrs. Hurtle’s existence. It’s obvious Paul is so sexually attracted to Mrs. Hurtle all she has to do is be affectionate and physically close and he abandons all his logical plans about confronting her and breaking off.
I do agree that Melmotte just wants Paul not to make any trouble so that he suggests a trip to California where he would be Fisker’s problem. I don’t think that Melmotte and Fisker are true business partners, however, or they would have some nefarious scheme regarding Paul. I suspect Melmotte has taken the con game far beyond what Fisker first suggested and that the real power now lay with Melmotte.

Ruby is quite naive and only a country girl. That’s evident in her complete acceptance of serving the men with no thought as to sitting down with them to eat. She has grand ideas about the titled gentleman Felix, which we know would never come to pass. She, Marie and Hetta are all being pushed to marry men they don’t love for economic security. Whereas Lady Carbury foregoes the economic security of a marriage with Mr. Broune to maintain her independence which matters more in the end. While marrying him might not bring the same physical and mental abuse as her first marriage, Hetta does remind her that Mr. Broune likes things his own way. And his way would not include placing Felix’s well being above everything else. Are age and experience prerequisites for a woman to be capable of making such a decision?

What has motivated the larger part of society to trust and praise Melmotte? Has he sold shares to so many people that they now have to believe in his honest success as a businessman? As an outsider who did not play by the traditional social rules and whose status depends upon the perception of wealth accumulated through business, it’s ironic he still desires the trappings of the traditional English establishment of a title and a place in Parliament. While many of the titled or those with family estates, like Felix, his mother, the Longestaffes, and Roger are in worse economic straits. Can they maintain their social power or prestige or will they have to surrender it to men like Melmotte?

I think that Ruby didn't sit down with the men to eat because she wanted to avoid her suitor.

Rosemarie wrote: "I think that Ruby didn't sit down with the men to eat because she wanted to avoid her suitor."

That's the impression I got as well - that she was expected to serve the food and then sit down with them, but she didn't want to.

I would have thought so too, but reading the text closely “ Ruby cut up the fowl standing, and dispensed other good things, not even placing a chair for herself at the table,- and apparently not expected to do so, for no one invited her.” Ruby continued to stand there as the men ate and she kept their their glasses refilled and only went back into the kitchen when the men were done with their meal.

If Ruby wanted to avoid John as much as possible, I would have thought that she would have gone back to the kitchen. The fact that she stays to continue serving without being invited to sit with them leads me to believe that for country people in this level of society, women were expected to act more as servants for the men. Is anyone knowledgeable about the social customs of this group? I thought that Trollope’s pointed observation about the absence of invitation was to make sure his readers were aware of this.

1) I liked the dinner scene and the characters, While Trollope often portrays rural people, they are usually of a higher class or at least are not so rustic. Reading the conversations here made me think I was reading Hardy and his Wessex characters,.
2) While Paul may seem to be a bit weak with women, he seems similar to Phineas Finn, and if he married Hetta, like Finn with Madame Max, he'd be loyal and not stray, Hetta would be bored with the very moral Roger. And, while naive, Paul is the only one who even tries to stand up to Melmotte.
3) I do agree that its hard to understand why everyone blindly trusts Melmotte when the stories in the rumor mill are of his being a corrupt thief. That, along with no one having any details about the work being done, seem to me to be flaws in the story.
4) John seems a bit too much of a dolt, even for Ruby. I agree she might find better in London as long as she avoids Felix.

Lori wrote: " Paul is an ass and I hope Hetta ends up with Roger. "

So that's why I pull for Paul over Roger - just cheering on my fellow equine.
More character pics:

Anne-Marie Duff as Georgiana
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0300879/...

Miranda Otto as Mrs. Hurtle
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...

Mrs. Hurtle w/ Paul
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0300879/...

That's pretty far from how I pictured Hrs. Hurtle. Wasn't she supposed to be a full-figured woman with a darker complexion? But then they always cast skinny women in roles that are supposed to be for bigger women. God forbid that a bigger woman can be considered attractive in film.

Brian-I agree that Paul is much like PF, and so I rather grudgingly agree that Hetta will likely be happier with him. I do often feel sorry for all those solid, good hearted but possibly a bit dull men who lose out to the handsome players who break a few hearts on the way to settling down with the best girl.

John appears to be the working class version of Roger, but let's hope that Ruby realizes that he's a good man who will treat her well (and probably let her run his life for him) and decides that under his mealy exterior is a heart of gold in a big strapping body.

I like Miranda Otto but I agree with Lori that she is not what the book gives as a picture of Mrs. Hurtle. I anticipated a more voluptuous and seductive woman in her mid 30s who attracts on first glance.

Yes! The Paul/Phineas comparison is a good one.

I hope Ruby finds something good for herself in London, not Sir Felix nor John Crumb. But I got the impression that she had been in contact with Sir Felix since she'd arrived in London.

I'm not at all surprised that Ruby wasn't allowed to sit at the table with the men. She's just a woman, after all. Not that different from the many of us who were expected to help clean up in the kitchen while the men talked amongst themselves in the living room.

Elizabeth wrote: "I hope Ruby finds something good for herself in London, not Sir Felix nor John Crumb. But I got the impression that she had been in contact with Sir Felix since she'd arrived in London.
."

While this would be a lovely result, I'm not sure how someone of Ruby's class and situation would find a good match in London. Perhaps she might meet a shopkeeper or other small business owner who she could work with (she might make a very successful bartender in a pub!) but it's hard to know how how city life would compare to country life for someone of her station.

Frances, she would be a good shopkeeper or bartender, I agree. I didn't necessarily mean that the something good would be a man. It could be a vocation and having her personal time to herself. Although, these were times when the workdays were very long and frequently dangerous.