Georgette Heyer Fans discussion

The thread for open spoilers and final conclusions.

Finished already. This morning I couldn't wait to get back to it & read a couple of chapters in bed. (I don't normally do that)

This reading it struck me how complex the characters are. While Stacy is universally a villain, most of the others had good points - & flaws.

I finished this morning as well!

This read-through, I really liked Miles. I think I have not in the past because I thought him a little arrogant, but his behavior is very consistent, and he is so honest.

He is certainly confident, but not arrogant because he does question Abby several times about how she feels, not just assuming that she must be enamored of him. He is not pompous, and while recognizing his own achievements, does not brag.

And Miles doesn't hold grudges! At the end, he tells Stacy frankly that he does not like Stacy's father and grandfather, but he also does not blame them for sending him off when he was young.

He is not perfect, though. He is quick to judge and cares very little about the feelings of others.

With all of Stacy's faults, I think one of the most irritating things about him is how he lies to himself. Quite the opposite of Miles!

The cowardly letter that he writes to Fanny, full of his own sacrifice and morality, which he then convinces himself to be true!

Poor Stacy, always having bad luck, through no fault of his own, of course...

Drove my daughter in to do her shopping today. Thought I'll get a good bit of my book read while waiting. She came back, RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE MARRIAGE PROPOSAL!!! I could have cried. Loving this reread.

Teresa, that's kind of funny! You poor thing.

Critterbee❇ wrote: "I finished this morning as well!

This read-through, I really liked Miles. I think I have not in the past because I thought him a little arrogant, but his behavior is very consistent, and he is so..."

Great summary of character. I’m up to Chapter Twelve and it’s taking me a while to warm to Miles. I think, like your earlier impressions, I’m finding him too arrogant. Abby outlines his virtues and his faults in Chapter Eleven and so far, for me, the latter tend to outweigh the former.

But that’s not to say I don’t think he and Abby are a good match, and I’m loving their exchanges!

Jane wrote: "Teresa, that's kind of funny! You poor thing."

:):) thanks for the sympathy Jane.

Julie wrote: "Critterbee❇ wrote: "I finished this morning as well!

This read-through, I really liked Miles. I think I have not in the past because I thought him a little arrogant, but his behavior is very cons..."

I loved Miles from the start. He's a no nonsense guy and plays it straight. I really enjoy how we all view the books and characters differently. Makes for some great discussions!!

Teresa wrote: "Julie wrote: "Critterbee❇ wrote: "I finished this morning as well!

This read-through, I really liked Miles. I think I have not in the past because I thought him a little arrogant, but his behavio..."

Miles is certainly different, I’ve not come across another quite like him in Heyer. Most readers seem to like him. I don’t particularly like his uncaring attitude, which he makes no bones about (as you and Critterbee say, he’s certainly honest!) But will wait and see, I’ve a way to go yet. :)

I do hope you warm to him Julie. I think growing up with three brothers and being the only girl and the eldest, I understand men better than girls:)
Maybe it's why I like Miles so much.

Black Sheep is just perfect in my eyes.

I think Heyer brought a real touch of what authentic adult love is like to this story. Abby and Miles are just utterly fabulous.

Poor Abby is hog-tied by convention and responsibility and it's not reciprocated because her sister is utterly selfish to the bitter end. I am really attached to Miles: -yes, he's blunt, but then he's spent his adulthood working for a living and not wasting his time with tonnish, fashionable society.

I just love his comments and observations and I adore the way he really cares for Abby and wants her to be happy.

His management of the Stacey problem is a delight - Heyer is at her best in the way she deals with that plot element!!

Miles is so different to other Heyer heroes who generally know only a position of high status, wealth and privilege. (I know there are exceptions!)

Miles was banished as a young man (which he admits was the making of him), so I truly don't see why he should pretend to care for folk he doesn't know. However, his actions speak for him as he demonstrated what he does care about and works out ways to implement that care.

Such an entertaining and emotionally satisfying read. Especially appreciated in the current crisis.

One of the interesting things about Miles for me is that he is both damaged by the coldness and rejection of his family and understanding about what happened to him and why. Not caring about others is the defense mechanism of a person who has been harmed; but he has also used the experience to grow and become a stronger person.

& Miles does care about people who deserve to be cared about - not just Abby but Oliver as well. I can see him having an excellent relationship with Fanny as well.

I love his final meeting with Stacy- it is a business meeting & a lot different than anything else GH had written.

Abigail - that’s an astute observation although I’m not sure how much Miles is damaged by the time he and Abby meet. Of course, deep down, the residual hurt is probably there but I suspect Abby’s love will definitely ease that hurt.

Carol, yes, that meeting between them is powerful and so satisfying!

Abigail wrote: "One of the interesting things about Miles for me is that he is both damaged by the coldness and rejection of his family and understanding about what happened to him and why. Not caring about others..."

this is really well said!

I've liked Miles for a long time now, but I remember when I first read the book he wasn't one of my favorites.

the older I get the more I care that he is a man who has worked for a living, the way many/most? of her heroes have not. and when they have, it's "managing an estate".

military service is the other exception, I think.

I haven't finished it this time yet but I always love how Stacy gets what he deserves!

Abigail wrote: "One of the interesting things about Miles for me is that he is both damaged by the coldness and rejection of his family and understanding about what happened to him and why. Not caring about others..."

This is a good observation! I think the first time I read this I didn't quite like Miles because he seemed very selfish to me. This time round I think hee is simply not sentimental at all, and he doesn't feel the need to go out of his way for people who would never return the favour - which is most of his family!
Now that I'm older and less likely to let myself be guilt-tripped, I have a lot more respect for that.

That bit where he tells Selina he will take good care of Abby - wonderful double meaning.

I think Miles has overtaken Robert as my favourite heyer hero.

Jackie wrote: "I haven't finished it this time yet but I always love how Stacy gets what he deserves!"

One of my favorite parts Jackie. And nobody deserves it more :)

Teresa wrote: "Julie wrote: "Critterbee❇ wrote: "I finished this morning as well!

This read-through, I really liked Miles. I think I have not in the past because I thought him a little arrogant, but his behavio..."

Me, too! Just finished rereading/listening to chapter 4, when Abigail and Miles first meet, and am reminded why I love this one! Miles, from the beginning, has a dry, dark, self-deprecating sense of humor, and quick wit, which I find irresistible! And I love that in such a socially rigid time, he knows who he is, doesn’t give a fig what society thinks, and goes his own way. He reminds me very much of my husband in that regard!

Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Black Sheep is just perfect in my eyes.

I think Heyer brought a real touch of what authentic adult love is like to this story. Abby and Miles are just utterly fabulous.

Poor Abby is hog-tied by..."

Beautiful summation, thank you!

Nick wrote: "Abigail wrote: "One of the interesting things about Miles for me is that he is both damaged by the coldness and rejection of his family and understanding about what happened to him and why. Not car..."

Yes, good point about appreciating him more as we get older, I agree.

Abigail wrote: "One of the interesting things about Miles for me is that he is both damaged by the coldness and rejection of his family and understanding about what happened to him and why. Not caring about others..."

Very true, I’m sure he used that hurt to motivate him to succeed. He does seem uniquely self aware, and unique among Heyer heroes.

A little linguistic comment/question:

(I'm not sure if Abby being willing to go, unchaperoned, to the theatre with Miles counts as a spoiler, so I'm putting this in 'Spoilers.)

When Abby and Miles goes to the theatre, she is impressed that he arranges to have tea and refreshments brought to them in their box.

Abby said appreciatively: ‘How comfortable it is not to be obliged to inch one’s way through the press in the foyer! You are entertaining me in royal style, Mr Calverleigh!’

‘What, with cat-lap and cakes? If I entertained you royally I should give you pink champagne!’

Obviously, tea=catlap in Miles's lexicon. I wouldn't have thought any more of it, but I was just reading Agatha Christie's Taken at the Flood, and came upon this reference to a tea-tray being brought in:

“Here’s Kathie with the catlap,” he remarked.

The scene goes on to suggest that Kathie is not too particular about making sure that the water has properly boiled before making the tea (a particular pet peeve of mine).

So now my question is: is, or was, 'catlap' a common metaphor for tea, or only for ill-brewed tea, or, given that Heyer and Christie were contemporaries, is this just slang from that day, or ...?

It has been a well known term for useless tea. https://www.etymonline.com/word/cat-lap

Susan in Perthshire wrote: "It has been a well known term for useless tea. https://www.etymonline.com/word/cat-lap"

Is it still used commonly? Honestly, I always thought that it meant milk, because cats are supposedly fond of milk. Thanks for clearing that up.

Not commonly used today I think .- but I remember my grandfather using it. He died in 1964.

What a keen eye for words, Doris! That one went right under my raydar.

I've had a poke around and most of the online dictionary sites seem to agree that 'catlap' means any weak or watery drink, but especially tea.
Google Ngram seems to think it was used mostly from about 1800 to 1950.

I wonder what happened then? Did people get better at making tea?

I'm finished and I loved it as much this time as before. Miles and Abbey are the perfect couple I think.
I was totally enjoying Stacy's fall. He deserved everything he got. Such a selfish creature. Matched probably by Selina. Not much to choose between the two of them.
Selina said she loved Abbey best of all, but didn't give a fig for her happiness. When Abbey assured her she had refused Miles, she was all happiness and delight again without once considering Abbey's feelings.

According to one online etymology source, "cat-lap" was first recorded in a 1785 source to refer to any weak drink, especially tea, suitable only for cats to drink. It is a disparaging term. https://www.etymonline.com/word/cat-lap

A few possibly interesting notes about tea in the era: most tea drunk in England at the time was green tea, and the Chinese who supplied it adulterated it with toxic chemicals to make it the shade of green they believed the British market demanded. So those who drank weak tea were probably healthier than those who drank strong tea. Also, only the wealthiest could afford to use fresh tea leaves for each pot; often they reused the leaves several times, which would definitely result in cat-lap! Finally, the tea sold in shops was frequently adulterated with dried hedgerow leaves, so it could scarcely be considered tea at all.

Given all that, it's small wonder that tea was often denigrated and dismissed as an unworthy drink. (Of course, the British were unaware of the adulteration with toxins until about 1850, at which point most people switched to black tea. I think of that and laugh every time someone touts green tea's healthfulness to me.)

Have any of you re-used tea leaves? My best friend lived with us during our senior year of high school, and my mother made us buy our own tea. So, being brilliant young ladies, we hung the tea bags on the curtain rods to dry so we could use them again. Trust me, cat-lap sounds better than what ours tasted!

Miles is, I think, my favorite Heyer hero, and it's because he makes me laugh. I just can't resist him!

Yes, for years I used the same tea bag for two days' breakfast tea. At a certain point I decided it might be better to drink tea only every other day! Fortunately, I can now afford a new tea bag each day, and sometimes even loose tea.

Yes, Abigail! I'd rather have one good cup of tea and go without on the other day. I use loose leaf now, because although it seems expensive, it still only costs me around $25-30 a year by buying it by the pound. And it's so good!

Doris wrote: "A little linguistic comment/question:

(I'm not sure if Abby being willing to go, unchaperoned, to the theatre with Miles counts as a spoiler, so I'm putting this in 'Spoilers.)

When Abby and Mil..."

I'm trying to remember Taken at the Flood, because I'm sure I've read every Christie there is, but the title doesn't sound familiar! I wonder if it has a different American name? I'll check...

In China at a tea place near where I lived, you drink some tea, and than pour more hot water over your tea leaves for a second and third cup. One of my professors would say 'If you drink tea, you eat tea' because of the loose leaves you would sometimes get in your mouth. I sometimes use a tea bag twice, but only if it is pretty soon after I use it the first time.

Aha! There Is a Tide in the U.S.! (I like Taken at the Flood better)

Doris wrote: "A little linguistic comment/question:

(I'm not sure if Abby being willing to go, unchaperoned, to the theatre with Miles counts as a spoiler, so I'm putting this in 'Spoilers.)

When Abby and Mil..."

I always thought it was called cat lap because it was weak & milky. When I was growing up we gave our cats milk to drink.

I'm sure the expression cat lap was still in use in NZ in the 60s & 70s.

Critterbee❇ wrote: "In China at a tea place near where I lived, you drink some tea, and than pour more hot water over your tea leaves for a second and third cup. One of my professors would say 'If you drink tea, you e..."

I think the secret must be to not let them dry out before using them again! But I like my tea very strong (must be my lower class mentality - every time I read about stewed, tannic tea I think I'd probably love it), so I'd rather have just one cup of the stuff with muscle than a pot of more delicate brew. Same thing with coffee!

although I frequently feel envy for those people who are reading one of Heyer's books for the first time, I have just gotten to the point where Stacy is just about to despair and then meets Mrs. Clapham.

Watching Stacy sum her up and decide she will meet his needs, I'm pretty sure this part is better when you know how it will end!

Jackie wrote: "Watching Stacy sum her up and decide she will meet his needs, I'm pretty sure this part is better when you know how it will end!"

So true! He's so calculating and heartless at this point, you feel pleased that he's going to get what he deserves!

Nick wrote: "Jackie wrote: "Watching Stacy sum her up and decide she will meet his needs, I'm pretty sure this part is better when you know how it will end!"

So true! He's so calculating and heartless at this ..."

True!!!

Critterbee❇ wrote: "In China at a tea place near where I lived, you drink some tea, and than pour more hot water over your tea leaves for a second and third cup.

Was that just one special place you knew, or is it a general thing? In Japan it is – you can have three to four cups out of the same tea leaves. The taste changes as you go, the first cup tastes fresh and green, the last cup a bit bitter. Using green tea leaves.

By the way, in German, a slang word for "water" is "Gänsewein", i.e. "goose wine"!

Elizabeth wrote: "Critterbee❇ wrote: "In China at a tea place near where I lived, you drink some tea, and than pour more hot water over your tea leaves for a second and third cup.

Was that just one special place yo..."

"Goose wine"!!!

Goose wine... And come to think of it, up here in the north (I'm in Hamburg) they call tea "Moorwasser", meaning "water from the moors", probably because of the colour. There are lots of moors around here. Bathing in a moor lake is indeed like bathing in tea, except that you don't emerge all dyed as you probably would if you did bathe in tea.

And there's a saying, "I'd rather bathe in champagne than take a Coca-Cola shower ", but I'm straying off topic...

😂😂😂

Tadiana mentioned the Fanny part of the story line (& that phrase just doesn't sound right! 😂) But I really liked it.

Interesting that fanny grows up & is knocked out of her misery when she realises that Abby has found true love. Stacy doesn't develop at all. There is no indication that Stacy ever realises that he is the author of his own misfortune!

Yep, the last we see of Stacey is getting on the last stage outta town! Does that make John Wayne Miles?😂

Good one Karlyne :)